Women aren't Babies

[Clearing the Eye]

Spoiler: snip

Being called names sucks. I was bullied a lot, so I get it. The first few times you're called a name, it's no big deal. By the tenth it starts to wear on you and by the hundredth you've had enough. But this happens to everyone. I'm not saying women don't face sexism in the world (in some parts of the world, sexism is the standard). But sometimes it feels less about stopping assholes, and more about women being special.

I've got no doubt in my mind that you're in this debate because in your experience, you or a friend or someone you know has been treated poorly and in a sexist fashion. I very much doubt your part of some gyno conspiracy to take over the world and crush men. But the way some people talk about it, you'd think gender mattered more to them than the assholes they fight.

I want to be on the side fighting for everyone. I want everyone to be treated like a person, not a sex, gender, race, creed or social economic figure. I want a community and a world where no one even notices these things, where sex is as relevant to eye colour. You do too, I bet. But to me it often seems like more effort goes into talking about how bad women have it and how much help they need, than how to make everyone equal.

Am I making any sense?

If I'm reading you correctly, you seem to have fallen into one of the pitfalls common to people trying to work towards equality (I won't bore you with a list of ones I've fallen into, and I'd have to update it every so often anyway). It doesn't help that this sort of argument is used all the time by people merely going through the motions, or who want to derail the issue.

I understand you want eqaulity, but that can't apply to the move towards equality itself. Making things equal means disproportionate things have to be done for different groups who are in disproportional circumstances to begin with.

You say you are unhappy with people talking about how much worse women have rather than trying to make everyone equal. But acknowledging inequality is the first step towards reaching equality. You don't solve the problem by refusing to address it.

...

Or, to put it another way, if you are saying we shouldn't try to stop harassment of women, then I am never going to support you. That's a viewpoint that only benefits bullies.

But if you are to say that as well as stopping harassment of women, we should also work towards stopping harassment of everyone else, that's something I can definitely support.

It's not an issue of ignoring any inequality. It's an issue of approach. See, in my experience most people arguing for equality do so with language such as "Improve this for women." Or "Women need this." It creates the image some people have of feminism as a sexist rant against men. I want it to be "Let's give everyone this." And "Let's make sure everyone has this." The militant men hating minority among feminists is indeed a small minority, but when the arguments come down to "Women, women, women," we get painted a very one sided picture.

Now we have people going too far and away from equality. We have people treating women like delicate flowers that need help. We have people treating women just as different to men as before, only in other ways.

Instead of a thread about a woman being picked on, why didn't we get a thread about a human being being treated poorly? We make more of an issue out of her gender than the fact people are being asses to other people. The real feminists want gender to be irrelevant and we won't get there if the genitals of a victim is more of a talking point than the actions.

"Woman is abused, how horrible that someone would do that to a girl," is just as sexist as "Women are all cunts." The former treats an entire group as weak and sees their gender before their humanity. The latter... well the latter does the same, just less friendly.

 

[Fappy]

No doubt you've all noticed the flood of sexism related threads lately (*irony*).

Apparently you haven't spent a lot of time in the Off-Topic forum considering this has been the case for as long as I have been a member of this site. The Off-Topic forum should be renamed to, "Oblivious Children Share Their Misguided Thoughts About Women and Relationships".

 

[Clearing the Eye]

No doubt you've all noticed the flood of sexism related threads lately (*irony*).

Apparently you haven't spent a lot of time in the Off-Topic forum considering this has been the case for as long as I have been a member of this site. The Off-Topic forum should be renamed to, "Oblivious Children Share Their Misguided Thoughts About Women and Relationships".

I think you'll find just as many threads about homosexuality and how shitty EA apparently is.

Maybe rename it to People Complaining.

EDIT: Oh and the friendzone. Can't forget the friendzone threads.

 

[Fappy]

No doubt you've all noticed the flood of sexism related threads lately (*irony*).

Apparently you haven't spent a lot of time in the Off-Topic forum considering this has been the case for as long as I have been a member of this site. The Off-Topic forum should be renamed to, "Oblivious Children Share Their Misguided Thoughts About Women and Relationships".

I think you'll find just as many threads about homosexuality and how shitty EA apparently is.

Maybe rename it to People Complaining.

EDIT: Oh and the friendzone. Can't forget the friendzone threads.

Most the EA bashing goes on in Gaming Discussion. I agree about homosexuality though, sexuality in general is over-discussed in this forum.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

No doubt you've all noticed the flood of sexism related threads lately (*irony*).

Apparently you haven't spent a lot of time in the Off-Topic forum considering this has been the case for as long as I have been a member of this site. The Off-Topic forum should be renamed to, "Oblivious Children Share Their Misguided Thoughts About Women and Relationships".

I think you'll find just as many threads about homosexuality and how shitty EA apparently is.

Maybe rename it to People Complaining.

EDIT: Oh and the friendzone. Can't forget the friendzone threads.

Most the EA bashing goes on in Gaming Discussion. I agree about homosexuality though, sexuality in general is over-discussed in this forum.

I'm guilty of that to a degree. But its just such a damn interesting topic. Human nature, damn you!

[small][small]Human nature the human condition, not Human Nature the boy band. Actually... both.[/small][/small]

 

[Thaluikhain]

So why should we indulge even more incorrect stereotypes based on an experience which is only made possible due to age, anonimity and religious influence?

Hey? Only anonymous people from a certain religion or age bracket are sexist?

Instead of a thread about a woman being picked on, why didn't we get a thread about a human being being treated poorly?

Because, in many cases, gender is at least partly the reason they are being harassed. Ignoring gender in those cases is ignoring the sexism behind it.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

So why should we indulge even more incorrect stereotypes based on an experience which is only made possible due to age, anonimity and religious influence?

Hey? Only anonymous people from a certain religion or age bracket are sexist?

Instead of a thread about a woman being picked on, why didn't we get a thread about a human being being treated poorly?

Because, in many cases, gender is at least partly the reason they are being harassed. Ignoring gender in those cases is ignoring the sexism behind it.

I think you'll find almost all those idiots are just being assholes. They're the same people who pick on guys. They find whatever it is about you that you're likely to be sensitive about and have at it.

So, not so much sexism as... any excuse to be a dickhead.

 

[Kordie]

I can see where the OP is coming from. The main subject here being that there is no evidence that any group or minority is getting trolled or insulted worse than others and thus does not garner any special attention. The reason that no group can be offended more online, is that there is rarely a way to confirm anyones gender or orientation in a game without the user stating it. (Although mics and voice chat can out your gender) Even in cases where people have stated "I'm a girl" or "I'm gay", there is always the possability that they are lieing. I don't know why they would, but it's possible.

Trolls suck, fight them, get rid of them, ignore them etc. On the victim side of it, treat everyone equally. Personally, I would tell anyone upset about being trolled online a combination of "suck it up", "it's just trach talk", and "they can't possibly know you, their words are empty and meaningless". If someone can come up with a statistic that shows one group being picked on to a greater extenet than others, than that group may qualify for some special attention.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I think you'll find almost all those idiots are just being assholes. They're the same people who pick on guys. They find whatever it is about you that you're likely to be sensitive about and have at it.

So, not so much sexism as... any excuse to be a dickhead.

If that is the case, and the sexism we see in wider society doesn't have any impact on people's behaviours online, that's fair enough.

I don't tend to believe that though.

 

[Kordie]

I think you'll find almost all those idiots are just being assholes. They're the same people who pick on guys. They find whatever it is about you that you're likely to be sensitive about and have at it.

So, not so much sexism as... any excuse to be a dickhead.

If that is the case, and the sexism we see in wider society doesn't have any impact on people's behaviours online, that's fair enough.

I don't tend to believe that though.

The difference in wider society is that you can look at someone and say, yep thats a girl. You can't do that in a game. In my personal experience the only time I see a female gamer get made fun of, is when a troll is making fun of everyone, the female mentions shes a girl, and the troll targets her. It's a simple case of an asshat being an asshat regardless of any orientation, religion, or gender.

I have never seen anyone just start mocking a girl for being a girl just because they found out. Worst thing I see is the comment "nah girls don't play games" which I see most of the time as sarcasm.

 

[ChildishLegacy]

Fight for people, not for women.

Well thats exactly it, I'd like to stick up for anybody thats being given a rough time, if one happens to be female that's not sexist/trying to be some sort of white knight, it just happened that the person being given a hard time was female. I feel the same way about racism and other bigotry, none of it's acceptable.

 

[Kordie]

Fight for people, not for women.

Well thats exactly it, I'd like to stick up for anybody thats being given a rough time, if one happens to be female that's not sexist/trying to be some sort of white knight, it just happened that the person being given a hard time was female. I feel the same way about racism and other bigotry, none of it's acceptable.

Thirded. This is my philosphy as well, and I believe it's a good route to take.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I can see where the OP is coming from. The main subject here being that there is no evidence that any group or minority is getting trolled or insulted worse than others and thus does not garner any special attention. The reason that no group can be offended more online, is that there is rarely a way to confirm anyones gender or orientation in a game without the user stating it. (Although mics and voice chat can out your gender) Even in cases where people have stated "I'm a girl" or "I'm gay", there is always the possability that they are lieing. I don't know why they would, but it's possible.

Trolls suck, fight them, get rid of them, ignore them etc. On the victim side of it, treat everyone equally. Personally, I would tell anyone upset about being trolled online a combination of "suck it up", "it's just trach talk", and "they can't possibly know you, their words are empty and meaningless". If someone can come up with a statistic that shows one group being picked on to a greater extenet than others, than that group may qualify for some special attention.

Pretty much what I'm getting at.

I think you'll find almost all those idiots are just being assholes. They're the same people who pick on guys. They find whatever it is about you that you're likely to be sensitive about and have at it.

So, not so much sexism as... any excuse to be a dickhead.

If that is the case, and the sexism we see in wider society doesn't have any impact on people's behaviours online, that's fair enough.

I don't tend to believe that though.

Sexism in the adult world is nowhere near as prevalent as certain extremists want us to believe it is. Lonely teenagers online are the only real sexists in the bulk of the Western world and the cavalcade of sexism laws makes it a very dangerous world for employers to step into, especially in the U.S., where suing someone is as common as drinking a coffee. There's some people who stick to "traditional roles," where the woman cooks and the man goes to work, etc. But that's hardly a sexism worth going after, because the people in those roles have as much right to partake in them as we do to not.

Yeah, some people are treated badly because of they're female, but it's more often than not simply a woman thinking she didn't get the promotion because she's a woman. There's no real evidence women have it harder than men and every statistic I've ever seen as shown more women than men get a higher education and preferential treatment for university. It's all largely guilt trips and conjecture.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Fight for people, not for women.

Well thats exactly it, I'd like to stick up for anybody thats being given a rough time, if one happens to be female that's not sexist/trying to be some sort of white knight, it just happened that the person being given a hard time was female. I feel the same way about racism and other bigotry, none of it's acceptable.

Exactly. See every person as a person, not a gender, else you're just as bad as the hooting assholes--just in a different fashion.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Sexism in the adult world is nowhere near as prevalent as certain extremists want us to believe it is. Lonely teenagers online are the only real sexists in the bulk of the Western world and the cavalcade of sexism laws makes it a very dangerous world for employers to step into, especially in the U.S., where suing someone is as common as drinking a coffee. There's some people who stick to "traditional roles," where the woman cooks and the man goes to work, etc. But that's hardly a sexism worth going after, because the people in those roles have as much right to partake in them as we do to not.

Yeah, some people are treated badly because of they're female, but it's more often than not simply a woman thinking she didn't get the promotion because she's a woman. There's no real evidence women have it harder than men and every statistic I've ever seen as shown more women than men get a higher education and preferential treatment for university. It's all largely guilt trips and conjecture.

No, that's complete and utter bullshit. I could go dig up the usual sources, but honestly, what's the point? If you've chosen to believe that, facts won't get in the way.

ETA: About sexism not being a serious issue, not university admissions in Clearing the Eye's country.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Sexism in the adult world is nowhere near as prevalent as certain extremists want us to believe it is. Lonely teenagers online are the only real sexists in the bulk of the Western world and the cavalcade of sexism laws makes it a very dangerous world for employers to step into, especially in the U.S., where suing someone is as common as drinking a coffee. There's some people who stick to "traditional roles," where the woman cooks and the man goes to work, etc. But that's hardly a sexism worth going after, because the people in those roles have as much right to partake in them as we do to not.

Yeah, some people are treated badly because of they're female, but it's more often than not simply a woman thinking she didn't get the promotion because she's a woman. There's no real evidence women have it harder than men and every statistic I've ever seen as shown more women than men get a higher education and preferential treatment for university. It's all largely guilt trips and conjecture.

No, that's complete and utter bullshit. I could go dig up the usual sources, but honestly, what's the point? If you've chosen to believe that, facts won't get in the way.

"All your information is wrong. But I won't show you why. It just is."

:/

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Sexism in the adult world is nowhere near as prevalent as certain extremists want us to believe it is. Lonely teenagers online are the only real sexists in the bulk of the Western world and the cavalcade of sexism laws makes it a very dangerous world for employers to step into, especially in the U.S., where suing someone is as common as drinking a coffee. There's some people who stick to "traditional roles," where the woman cooks and the man goes to work, etc. But that's hardly a sexism worth going after, because the people in those roles have as much right to partake in them as we do to not.

Yeah, some people are treated badly because of they're female, but it's more often than not simply a woman thinking she didn't get the promotion because she's a woman. There's no real evidence women have it harder than men and every statistic I've ever seen as shown more women than men get a higher education and preferential treatment for university. It's all largely guilt trips and conjecture.

No, that's complete and utter bullshit. I could go dig up the usual sources, but honestly, what's the point? If you've chosen to believe that, facts won't get in the way.

"For 2011 graduates, the college enrollment rate was 72.3 percent for young women and 64.6 percent for young men." - http://www.bls.gov/news.release/hsgec.nr0.htm

-http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2012/02/16/the-male-female-ratio-in-college/

"While women have increased their educational investment steadily over time, men have not. From 1980 to 2010, college attainment for males aged 25 to 34 increased by only 1 percentage point. It has been essentially flat over the last decade." - http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/Commentary/2011/2011-21.pdf

 

[Kordie]

Sexism in the adult world is nowhere near as prevalent as certain extremists want us to believe it is. Lonely teenagers online are the only real sexists in the bulk of the Western world and the cavalcade of sexism laws makes it a very dangerous world for employers to step into, especially in the U.S., where suing someone is as common as drinking a coffee. There's some people who stick to "traditional roles," where the woman cooks and the man goes to work, etc. But that's hardly a sexism worth going after, because the people in those roles have as much right to partake in them as we do to not.

Yeah, some people are treated badly because of they're female, but it's more often than not simply a woman thinking she didn't get the promotion because she's a woman. There's no real evidence women have it harder than men and every statistic I've ever seen as shown more women than men get a higher education and preferential treatment for university. It's all largely guilt trips and conjecture.

No, that's complete and utter bullshit. I could go dig up the usual sources, but honestly, what's the point? If you've chosen to believe that, facts won't get in the way.

While I have seen statistics that women rate higher in spousal abuse, I have not seen anything to say that sexism is higher vs women in other areas. On a more closer related subject, bullying stats have the number 1 target being LGBT people. If you can produce some stats I would love to see them.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Sexism in the adult world is nowhere near as prevalent as certain extremists want us to believe it is. Lonely teenagers online are the only real sexists in the bulk of the Western world and the cavalcade of sexism laws makes it a very dangerous world for employers to step into, especially in the U.S., where suing someone is as common as drinking a coffee. There's some people who stick to "traditional roles," where the woman cooks and the man goes to work, etc. But that's hardly a sexism worth going after, because the people in those roles have as much right to partake in them as we do to not.

Yeah, some people are treated badly because of they're female, but it's more often than not simply a woman thinking she didn't get the promotion because she's a woman. There's no real evidence women have it harder than men and every statistic I've ever seen as shown more women than men get a higher education and preferential treatment for university. It's all largely guilt trips and conjecture.

No, that's complete and utter bullshit. I could go dig up the usual sources, but honestly, what's the point? If you've chosen to believe that, facts won't get in the way.

While I have seen statistics that women rate higher in spousal abuse, I have not seen anything to say that sexism is higher vs women in other areas. On a more closer related subject, bullying stats have the number 1 target being LGBT people. If you can produce some stats I would love to see them.

I think you'll find women are more likely to be physically attacked by other women than by men. I saw something on the news about it a few months ago, a report on the rising rates of violence among women.