Women gaming problems, solution discussion 1

[carnex]

Yeah, I've never bragged with the `You got beaten by a girl`, because it kind of implies that.. you shouldn't be beaten by a girl, you know? Like it's something to be ashamed of.

I think this is holdover from real world. Before video games boys and men went out to play some sport. And in sport, as physical activity most often relying on strength, endurance and speed, males have natural advantage over females. So when men is beaten by woman of equal training level in particular sport it was badge of honor for her bur burden of shame for him.

These days men and boys often go to video games for same R&R so it transitioned over.

Also, fact that in eighties and nineties mostly boys played video games and thus were, on average, much better in them compared to girls, added to that specific social stigma. Funny thing is, girls actually adopted pong much better then men since it relied on fine motor skills which girls were, on base level, better. Nobody had advantage of experience so better fine motor skills and roughly equal hand-eye coordination gave them the edge.

@runic knight
Publishers target male 18-35 demographics because they drop more money than anyone. And reason why they drop more money than any other demographics is complex but can be roughly simplified to

- When we first get freedom of choice we are least responsible with time thus spending most of it on pleasure. If video games are your pleasure, you spend it there.
- When we first get our own source of income we are least responsible with money thus spending it easily on pleasure. If video games are your pleasure, you spend it there.
- Men are much more likely to sacrifice other fields for their hobby. Clothes, nights out, food even health. If video games are your hobby, you spend what you save there.
- Men are more likely to spend time and money on things that hold no beneficial relevance to social life and world.

There for they target that demographic, which only reconfirms their ideas... I think you recognize the spiral.

As for verbal poison spewed on gender basis out there.

As I already said, most of it is because of "girl in boys club" behavior. While it's good, it's good, but when it turns sour: you are a girl!!! Even if most don't mean that as a gender based insult, it's what's different so it is used as base for attack. Only way to stop that is for females to become regular and accepted part of a group. Now, that requires some sacrifices and it's exactly female gamers who have to make them.

I hate making this comparison since social and cultral significance is really beyon being on the same scale but let talk about how white-black segregation got beaten into the ground.

For years white representatives of egalitarian societies came to segragated states and fought against those laws, And they would win cour case here and there or something like that but never made even an impression, since thing would return to old routine as soon as they left. Not when blacks got organised and decided that it was woth the sacrifice they gathered, formed several groups and one group went into white only shop and sat down. They were told to go away, and when they refused they got dragged out to the street and beaten then arrested. Another group came in, got the same treatment, Adn another, and another. Somwhere along the way owner decided enough was enough. White folks left and he closed the shop with black men in it. And then they repeated the same tomorrow. And the next day. And so on. Since that experiment kind of worked other groups in other towns did the same, with same results. Slowly people were both disgusted by violence and getting used to blacks around them. When they got used to them taking same places white did, people saw them as people thus became less and less racist. That was the initial shot that made it all possible.

So, as long as female gamers hide, no progress can be made. Good thing is that we still didn't invent how to punch someone over internet, but bad thing is that there is little responsibility for actions over internet. Second notion is actually made worse by recent idiotic court decision over mock threat in LoL game. What I'm trying to say is that female gamers, both girls and women, have to come to places they want to inhabit, as mass presence and stay there despite the insults and call-outs. Once group gets used to presence of females things will improve. Girl shaming will still be the ting, its almost genetic I feel. But other than that, it will improve.

 

[carnex]

Hhm. Well then. Something I had thought up of over how a certain someone could have used a ton of money they received was, what if we tried setting up a country wide census of some sort. What if we had people volunteer to go out to public places and ask women to fill out a questionnaire? The questions would be something to the effect of.

Do you play video-games?

If so, what kind of games do you like?

If not, what kind of games would make you interested in playing video-games?

Then once the census is over, everyone would pool the results together, probably on a website, and we could figure out what games female gamers typically prefer, and we would figure out what kinds of games female non gamers would consider interesting enough to get them into gaming. Then we could post this on a site and show it to game developers. It would be a bit rough since it would be done in an unofficial capacity but it could at least get some numbers and data for game companies to look at capitalize on for the sake of getting money.

Basically, we give game companies a monetary reason to target the female demographic.

I'm affraid what wouldn't really work. People did similar things to ages and almost every time those who bought into it got hurt. From Space Quest 6 to Operation Rainfall, almost to 100% accuracy, whenever they listned to fan petitions developers and publishers lost money.

Now, going through kickstarter or whrough something similar might be a good idea. High risk-high reward for csumers but quite safe for publisher. After all, it's consumers that demand things, it's just to be expected that they burden the brunt of risk.

 

[runic knight]

The market strategies (darker, more violent, more attempts at being "mature" in order to try to fit demand from ->
The core targeted demographic
The habit of chasing what is the current biggest thing
The habit of choosing short term profit in spite of the concerns of the consumers.

I did go into why there isn't a bubble going to burst bit later on, in mentioning Nintendo as just one example. The main point was not that there was going to be some great crash because of lack of new players, rather, that the tactics themselves are crappy and have been seen before.
Hell, one could touch on the prominence of the internet alone to give free (if often uninspired) gaming to anyone looking as a reason why the gaming market itself wont ever burst. Though, the Triple A market on the other hand has shown a lot of signs of being forced to consolidate, closing down and combining at noteworthy rate, and that market is the one I was referring to as showing those parallels to comic industry of the 90's.

I gave an example of a trend that is parallel to the same trend that happened in comics. I never said there was no innovation (though I could make arguments about the value of the innovation we have been seeing with the new consoles, from the attempts microsoft has had to go back on to general failings of peripheral devices throughout gaming history). Say what you want about tunnel vision, you can at least see the point I was making about there being a trend, yes? And when you have some of the largest companies in the industry all driving for the same demographic and trying to repeat the same successes you have the parallel to the comic industry that I was trying to make there.

Aaah, we're specifically talking about the AAA market. Yeah they are in a bit of a pickle, but I believe they will adapt themselves to survive, they simply tailor themselves according to what sells and what doesn't, try a new thing here or there, etc.

Chasing the big thing is perfectly fine as long as they realize when it's no longer a big thing, and then find something new to chase. It's a perfectly sound strategy. Companies like EA and Activision aren't eager to die-out anytime soon. E.g. for the time being World Of Warcraft still holds 8 million subscribers and Call Of Duty is still a complete sell-out - that is the ONLY reason their respective companies are keeping those games going, because the market demand exists (i.e. guaranteed income).

Yes, but isn't is usually only when the market bottoms out that people realize the demand isn't there anymore? I know that the smartest of the business world are not immune to complacency when every so many years we get occurrences like the housing market crash. Add into that the amount of risk the Triple A companies take when putting hundreds of millions into the games (part of the problem being seen when games can sell millions and still be considered a failure.

I meant that sarcastically, as a common complaint raised about comics in the 90's was that they often showed much more skin beforehand while trying to introduce more "mature" storylines or just generally more violent ones. That was my whole commentary there. Yes, it is of course pandering, but to who, again? Certainly not children. Would it be fair to call it pandering to a more physically mature audience? Would it be wrong to call such pandering an attempt to appear to align with a more mature audience, or ot put it shortly, an attempt to appear mature?

It depends what your take on "mature" is because that word has lost all meaning in recent times (like the words "criticism" and "opinion"). To me that word is no longer relevant when describing any demographic, it seems more immature when people desperately try to draw a line between what's mature and what isn't.
There are various consumers with various interests coming from various backgrounds, they come together to collectively form different demographics, and developers/publishers attempt to appeal to those demographics and sell their product.
I do not judge any demographic as being inferior to any other demographic, they all have an equal right to exist and be catered to.
No need to keep crow-barring the word "mature" in there. I like to keep things simple.

fair enough, though my point was perhaps more towards the saturation of the market of so many similar products then it being mature. Yes, there is of course a place for it and an audience, even the pandering "maturity" mentioned. But much like how readers got sick of it in the 90's, I wonder if we aren't seeing some of that now. Not so much the bubble bursting in the Triple A, but companies taking bets on it and going down for it.

Yeah, what a brilliant insight that was explained 5 pages ago. Would you care to try touching on why that is happening, or will you just lazily claim it is a simple market demand, as though that is the sole reason the market is shaped like it is now? You know, sort of the point of that huge ass post I started with and tried to keep the discussion on, that of understanding why shit is the way it is to better grasp if we should try to change it and if so, how we could go about it?

Sure thing.

Everyone makes an individual decision whether to buy something or not, and on a grand scale those decisions come together to form trends. Trends can be forcefully altered if enough individuals agree on something (something that goes against established trends obviously), form a unified stance and push together in a vast movement.

Agreed. But in the case of current trends, there are aspects that affect the individual choice beyond simple interest or disinterest in the products.

Tell me, is there something the gaming community agrees on something in a unified stance right now? Specifically a stance which goes against established trends, and is that community ready to make a movement? I can't think of anything at the moment.

No, there is no moment yet. Not trying to start a movement here even, though hell, I can't say it would be bad if something came of all this. I don't know what they is relevant though.

If there truly is a vast untapped demographic of female gamers out there, the industry is yet to figure out how to appeal to them because even AAA games with well-portrayed female protagonists will be overwhelmingly played by males due to the AAA demographic being extremely male-dominated. Casual games are holding female gamers' interests for now and I see nothing wrong with different people being into different things - remember, individual decisions collectively forming trends. Developers/publishers can try and try out a line, but they're not going to keep pursuing it if females aren't biting back in decent numbers (and they're obviously not).

The entire reason trends form in the first place is because decisions are being made over a vast scale and people are unknowingly contributing to a unified stance (company CEO's will often give you a very different opinion about what they see from up there). Things have no reason to change unless they NEED to change - when enough people express the need, change will slowly occur and new trends will form. The cycle repeats. The AAA industry itself was something amazingly new and successful once upon a time (and still is successful for now), consumer demand created the AAA industry lest we forget.

So think again before you state that I'm "lazily claiming it is a simple market demand", there is weight/depth behind what I said and why I said it. The simplest answer to your "why did it happen?" question is this: Because enough people made individual decisions, and over a grand scale those decisions aligned to MAKE something happen.

Personally I don't care enough about the portrayal of fictional females (or tropes in fiction). I don't care about desperately luring more females into AAA gaming purely for the sake of having more females. I'll leave that decision completely in the hands of devs/publishers and their statisticians/analysts.
I have enough games to keep me busy for a while and great upcoming titles on the horizon (Battlefield 4!!).
So count me out as far as "pushing for change" goes

You make good points but still seem to make it too simple when there are more then just individual taste and preference to take into account. Yes, the pattern is a result of individual choices creating a pattern that creates the trend. Right on the money there. But why were the individuals making those choices? If it was solely a matter of taste and gaming preference alone, I would agree fully. But I have my doubts there. How the community is viewed and how the vocal of it are seen representing it create a cultural identity that can sway people towards or away from it. And it is no question gaming has a bit of a PR issue, especially relating to women. Hell, several in the thread have raised issue about how women are treated in games being different then their male counterparts. Surely those two could be related in a way that would influence individual decisions, and thus guide the trends to some degree.

Beyond that, this is not so much about filling a quota on females or trying to trick anyone. It is about trying to remove any sort of excess barrier that would otherwise affect the individual's decisions. More players means a bigger base and more variety in demand after all.

Also, sorry about the tone in the last post. A bit temperamental.

 

[Something Amyss]

I asked people to not make the issue a moral one nor to blame groups.

Congratulations on not following your own ground rules.

I did this for the sake of the conversation in an attempt to avoid the same bullshit that ends every other thread. Your post represented the very ideas I wanted to avoid.

Yes, addressing the real issues IS the very idea you want to avoid. And therein lies the problem, friend.

In your longer post, you asked what my Maher line had to do with anything. The problem is that nobody gets anywhere through false equivalence. Pretending otherwise only validates those who cause the problem. If one cannot look the problem in the eye, one cannot deal with it. If you want to offer excuses, do not call this a solutions thread.

I don't care your opinion on sexism. I don't care your opinion on what causes it. I don't care your opinion on why gaming community is the way it is. That is all fine and worth debate.

You honestly don't seem to care about anyone's statements other than your own, and get really angry at any dissent. It's not just me, dude. It doesn't hurt that you accused me of generalising and the like as you generalised, but it's not just me.

I do care about avoiding derailing the thread by making remarks that blame the problem on a single gender.

Then you are sacrficing the principle you claim (solutions) in favour of false equivalence and lip service, as I suspected.

I don't care how right or wrong that may be in the end. I don't care if you can't tell the difference between "I want to keep peace for the sake of the conversation striving for solutions" and "both sides are equal, lol". I started this thread for a more informed and reasoned look into things, I am sorry if you can't respect that or just don't understand.

False dichotomy. I understand and respect it, but I disagree. There's a difference. And you're the one who lashed out at me, so don't even go with the respect line.

I am sorry I was harsher in tone then I needed to be.

And yet you still are.

That reeks of insincerity, friend.

I wanted to avoid the shallow blame game that undermines any attempt to solve the issues and instead turns it into a ideological proxy war. I wanted to avoid going into the larger social and cultural aspects that might affect the state of gaming because I knew that it was beyond the scope of the community here to find solutions for and it was a minefield easy to turn into a proxy war.

And you can pretend that taking an approach of false balance will do that, but it doesn't. I already gave examples.

I want this thread to succeed. Please stay on topic. If all you have for an answer is to blame culture and other groups, then there is no point in you posting here. That does not address, inform or offer insight into the underlying reasons of the problem. It does not provide solutions that are practical or even within the scope of this community. It only derails the topic.

If calling one side wrong when it is in the wrong is "blame," I will continue to "blame." But frankly, I think the stance that actually calling people on their wrongs is exactly what it is, however: fair. If you wish to dodge that and say "I'm not listening!" that's your call.

None of the reasons you gave for treatment of women excuse it. And therein lies the problem. We can analyse the excuses all you want, but nothing changes from that. The actions need to change. Things don't get solved by propping up excuses. That's the sort of attitude that sent thousands of "clumsy" women "falling down stairs" and it's the attitude that still leads to blacks being scared out of towns. "Why" is great for classroom settings, but you're the one looking for solutions. Or I thought you were.

In short: You're getting the answers you asked for, just not the ones you want. Don't lash out because people are more canny than you give them credit for.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

By the way Runic Knight. I assume that, based on the title, this is just the first in a series of threads discussing this issue. So my question is, at what point will you feel we should move on to the next area of discussion and what will that area be about specifically?

Well, initially I thought about throwing the entire thing out at once, but after the first chunk on participation, I got tired and knew I had written more then most would bother to read anyways.

As for the next step, I don't know. Portrayal seems likely to be it, since it is being mentioned a lot to help increase participation, though I see far more pointless bickering going on just by daring to say "more women in games would be a good thing", since that brings jackasses of both sides running. Seriously "toughen up" and complaints about males in culture as a whole... what the hell?

Anyways, I would say as soon as any good idea comes out would be a good place to start, as it gets the ball rolling at least. I still stand behind the idea of a good and inexpensive games resource for newbies and a group through steam that is moderated. Small, but hell, might be a start, though I admit I am not the one to start it nor keep it running.

Hhm. Well then. Something I had thought up of over how a certain someone could have used a ton of money they received was, what if we tried setting up a country wide census of some sort. What if we had people volunteer to go out to public places and ask women to fill out a questionnaire? The questions would be something to the effect of.

Do you play video-games?

If so, what kind of games do you like?

If not, what kind of games would make you interested in playing video-games?

Then once the census is over, everyone would pool the results together, probably on a website, and we could figure out what games female gamers typically prefer, and we would figure out what kinds of games female non gamers would consider interesting enough to get them into gaming. Then we could post this on a site and show it to game developers. It would be a bit rough since it would be done in an unofficial capacity but it could at least get some numbers and data for game companies to look at capitalize on for the sake of getting money.

Basically, we give game companies a monetary reason to target the female demographic.

Not a bad thought, but ultimately it is too flawed to be viable, at least in its current form. Many people do not know what they want until they experience it (see Jim's Perfect Pasta Sauce video.) and even those that do will lie in order to sound right (See Jim's talk on Coffee). The two together means that a survey would not be a very dependable gauge and most companies know this so they will instead use a more certain resource (sales data).

Still, not a bad start to try and show a demand in orde to try and get a supply started.

What reason would people have to lie about what games they like or what games could get them interested in gaming? Especially when names would not be given for who said what. There's nothing to gain from putting this or that answer on this kind of census aside from potentially getting the kind of game you wrote down that you like or would like on the paper.

But I do agree that my idea is flawed due to several areas in this idea, not the least of which is who would compile the data and would the interpretation of the data be correct. But I think the most important aspect of my idea is that it actually goes out and talks to the women and girls and asks them personally what they want instead of just making assumptions or trying to figure out what they want in a roundabout way.

But something I'd like to ask is if anyone else has any games to add to that small list of indie games with female protagonists that I listed in my first post here.

 

[runic knight]

I asked people to not make the issue a moral one nor to blame groups.

Congratulations on not following your own ground rules.

I did this for the sake of the conversation in an attempt to avoid the same bullshit that ends every other thread. Your post represented the very ideas I wanted to avoid.

Yes, addressing the real issues IS the very idea you want to avoid. And therein lies the problem, friend.

In your longer post, you asked what my Maher line had to do with anything. The problem is that nobody gets anywhere through false equivalence. Pretending otherwise only validates those who cause the problem. If one cannot look the problem in the eye, one cannot deal with it. If you want to offer excuses, do not call this a solutions thread.

I don't care your opinion on sexism. I don't care your opinion on what causes it. I don't care your opinion on why gaming community is the way it is. That is all fine and worth debate.

You honestly don't seem to care about anyone's statements other than your own, and get really angry at any dissent. It's not just me, dude. It doesn't hurt that you accused me of generalising and the like as you generalised, but it's not just me.

I do care about avoiding derailing the thread by making remarks that blame the problem on a single gender.

Then you are sacrficing the principle you claim (solutions) in favour of false equivalence and lip service, as I suspected.

I don't care how right or wrong that may be in the end. I don't care if you can't tell the difference between "I want to keep peace for the sake of the conversation striving for solutions" and "both sides are equal, lol". I started this thread for a more informed and reasoned look into things, I am sorry if you can't respect that or just don't understand.

False dichotomy. I understand and respect it, but I disagree. There's a difference. And you're the one who lashed out at me, so don't even go with the respect line.

I am sorry I was harsher in tone then I needed to be.

And yet you still are.

That reeks of insincerity, friend.

I wanted to avoid the shallow blame game that undermines any attempt to solve the issues and instead turns it into a ideological proxy war. I wanted to avoid going into the larger social and cultural aspects that might affect the state of gaming because I knew that it was beyond the scope of the community here to find solutions for and it was a minefield easy to turn into a proxy war.

And you can pretend that taking an approach of false balance will do that, but it doesn't. I already gave examples.

I want this thread to succeed. Please stay on topic. If all you have for an answer is to blame culture and other groups, then there is no point in you posting here. That does not address, inform or offer insight into the underlying reasons of the problem. It does not provide solutions that are practical or even within the scope of this community. It only derails the topic.

If calling one side wrong when it is in the wrong is "blame," I will continue to "blame." But frankly, I think the stance that actually calling people on their wrongs is exactly what it is, however: fair. If you wish to dodge that and say "I'm not listening!" that's your call.

None of the reasons you gave for treatment of women excuse it. And therein lies the problem. We can analyse the excuses all you want, but nothing changes from that. The actions need to change. Things don't get solved by propping up excuses. That's the sort of attitude that sent thousands of "clumsy" women "falling down stairs" and it's the attitude that still leads to blacks being scared out of towns. "Why" is great for classroom settings, but you're the one looking for solutions. Or I thought you were.

In short: You're getting the answers you asked for, just not the ones you want. Don't lash out because people are more canny than you give them credit for.

I just wanted solutions that were actually viable and opinions from across the board but that is asking too much while at the same time apparently asking too little. Alright, I understand. This discussion is not for you then.

Obviously the overall issue within the society and culture itself is too large for you to ignore, even for the sake of a thread concentrating on a subculture. The place for that is not here though.

Do you have any solutions that could even affect the overall culture at large?

 

[Yuuki]

You make good points but still seem to make it too simple when there are more then just individual taste and preference to take into account. Yes, the pattern is a result of individual choices creating a pattern that creates the trend. Right on the money there. But why were the individuals making those choices? If it was solely a matter of taste and gaming preference alone, I would agree fully. But I have my doubts there. How the community is viewed and how the vocal of it are seen representing it create a cultural identity that can sway people towards or away from it. And it is no question gaming has a bit of a PR issue, especially relating to women. Hell, several in the thread have raised issue about how women are treated in games being different then their male counterparts. Surely those two could be related in a way that would influence individual decisions, and thus guide the trends to some degree.

Definitely, they are all byproducts of the trend that reinforce the trend even further. It's a self-expanding cycle similar to big-budget marketing i.e. appeal to primary demographic > secondary/tertiary demographic's interest doesn't grow > advertising to them isn't profitable > back to square one. Breaking out of the cycle is slow and painful, involving taking risks. Something which publishers are VERY afraid to do right now, seeing how paranoid they are of even putting a single female on the goddamn box cover - not misogynistic as some (like Anita) will immediately assume, simply paranoid and greedy to maximize profits to the last possible cent. As I said earlier the AAA market is indeed in a bit of a pickle and it needs to get out of it, loosen it's grip on developers' throats so they can release the games they want to release. I have faith it will overcome this challenge, even if it means eating itself and turning into something new along the way.

Beyond that, this is not so much about filling a quota on females or trying to trick anyone. It is about trying to remove any sort of excess barrier that would otherwise affect the individual's decisions. More players means a bigger base and more variety in demand after all.

It's hard to say whether lowering those barriers (byproducts of the trend as stated above) will have anything more than a tiny impact on the female gamers' interest in games like military shooters. The cultural notions will still hang around for a while to come, you look at communities like RTS or Arcade Fighters - games where communication is not required, it's almost exclusively about 1 vs 1 battles. Said communities are fairly accepting of newcomers of any gender, happy to share tips and info....but you still see jack-all females interested in those genres. I think the number of females turning up to Starcraft tournaments is barely 1-2% :S

It's like Grand Prix (F1 Racing) - technically both males and females are allowed to compete for the cup, but over the sport's 63-year history only two women have managed to qualify to even participate in a race. This is a sport where you just have to drive a car really fast (to put it bluntly ). Hell put aside F1 racing, look at the number of Hollywood female directors - almost none to be heard of. Those fields make the gender gap in AAA gaming look silly.

Actually I'm going to go ahead and one-up myself - the trends you in gaming are merely byproducts of far more monstrous trends on a much larger and deeper scale.

Change is going to be slowwwwwwwwww.

 

[runic knight]

You make good points but still seem to make it too simple when there are more then just individual taste and preference to take into account. Yes, the pattern is a result of individual choices creating a pattern that creates the trend. Right on the money there. But why were the individuals making those choices? If it was solely a matter of taste and gaming preference alone, I would agree fully. But I have my doubts there. How the community is viewed and how the vocal of it are seen representing it create a cultural identity that can sway people towards or away from it. And it is no question gaming has a bit of a PR issue, especially relating to women. Hell, several in the thread have raised issue about how women are treated in games being different then their male counterparts. Surely those two could be related in a way that would influence individual decisions, and thus guide the trends to some degree.

Definitely, they are all byproducts of the trend that reinforce the trend even further. It's a self-expanding cycle similar to big-budget marketing i.e. appeal to primary demographic > secondary/tertiary demographic's interest doesn't grow > advertising to them isn't profitable > back to square one. Breaking out of the cycle is slow and painful, involving taking risks. Something which publishers are VERY afraid to do right now, seeing how paranoid they are of even putting a single female on the goddamn box cover - not misogynistic as some (like Anita) will immediately assume, simply paranoid and greedy to maximize profits to the last possible cent. As I said earlier the AAA market is indeed in a bit of a pickle and it needs to get out of it, loosen it's grip on developers' throats so they can release the games they want to release. I have faith it will overcome this challenge, even if it means eating itself and turning into something new along the way.

Beyond that, this is not so much about filling a quota on females or trying to trick anyone. It is about trying to remove any sort of excess barrier that would otherwise affect the individual's decisions. More players means a bigger base and more variety in demand after all.

It's hard to say whether lowering those barriers (byproducts of the trend as stated above) will have anything more than a tiny impact on the female gamers' interest in games like military shooters. The cultural notions will still hang around for a while to come, you look at communities like RTS or Arcade Fighters - games where communication is not required, it's almost exclusively about 1 vs 1 battles. Said communities are fairly accepting of newcomers of any gender, happy to share tips and info....but you still see jack-all females interested in those genres. I think the number of females turning up to Starcraft tournaments is barely 1-2% :S

It's like Grand Prix (F1 Racing) - technically both males and females are allowed to compete for the cup, but over the sport's 63-year history only two women have managed to qualify to even participate in a race. This is a sport where you just have to drive a car really fast (to put it bluntly ). Hell put aside F1 racing, look at the number of Hollywood female directors - almost none to be heard of. Those fields make the gender gap in AAA gaming look silly.

Actually I'm going to go ahead and one-up myself - the trends you in gaming are merely byproducts of far more monstrous trends on a much larger and deeper scale.

Change is going to be slowwwwwwwwww.

true it would be slow as dirt here. Do you think it would still be possible though, for a smaller effort on the individual scale to have an effect on the larger? Take some of the suggestions I gave before about a newbie-gamer resource or a game server list to decrease people avoiding games because of aspects like community or rampant unchecked trolling? Do you think such efforts could build up over time?

 

[sweetylnumb]

Participation
Female gamers have existed since the start. They have always been there, though in number far less then males, and far less then now. Why though? Well, part of it seems to be related to simple interest. I don't mean that women don't have interest in games, rather, they often just have less interest in the sort of games that are, and were, made by the mainstream. There is an established pattern in games today along genre lines that show gender interests in them. Games like The Sims, for instance, have a larger playerbase of females then of males, where as games such as CoD, this disparity is flipped. This isn't done because of some sort of prevention of the other gender from playing, but rather the decisions of the individuals revealing a pattern along gender lines. Now, the underlying reason for this pattern may be related to culture and social expectations shaping what either gender would like at a younger age.
.

I'm sorry, where do people keep getting these hardcore facts? like "women dont like COD" "women dont like Mainstream games" im sorry, but that's just not true. World of warcraft has more female's than males, skyrim has at least as many girls as guys, not to mention other mainstream games like Borderlands etc etc. And WHYYYYY Does everyone think COD is the shooter that everyone should refer to in these discussions. I hate COD, most girls do. Not because its a shooter but because its a shitty shooter. Maybe girls have higher standards, idk. I like other shooters, and so do many girls. Its just that other shooters don't seem to count. And where are you getting your "its not prevention, its the genders not liking it" from? you dont think men try and stop females from playing thier manly man games? becuase they do. I play league of legends and if anyone realizes i'm a girl, abuse follows, usually along the lines of "women have smaller brains and thus belong in the kitchen" or something equally ridiculous.


I don't think you have the wrong idea here, i get the feeling you actually want to help. But your premises are very typical of modern day gamers. It's never modern gaming's fault, its never males fault. Its women, they just dont like modern games.

 

[runic knight]

Participation
Female gamers have existed since the start. They have always been there, though in number far less then males, and far less then now. Why though? Well, part of it seems to be related to simple interest. I don't mean that women don't have interest in games, rather, they often just have less interest in the sort of games that are, and were, made by the mainstream. There is an established pattern in games today along genre lines that show gender interests in them. Games like The Sims, for instance, have a larger playerbase of females then of males, where as games such as CoD, this disparity is flipped. This isn't done because of some sort of prevention of the other gender from playing, but rather the decisions of the individuals revealing a pattern along gender lines. Now, the underlying reason for this pattern may be related to culture and social expectations shaping what either gender would like at a younger age.
.

I'm sorry, where do people keep getting these hardcore facts? like "women dont like COD" "women dont like Mainstream games" im sorry, but that's just not true. World of warcraft has more female's than males, skyrim has at least as many girls as guys, not to mention other mainstream games like Borderlands etc etc. And WHYYYYY Does everyone think COD is the shooter that everyone should refer to in these discussions. I hate COD, most girls do. Not because its a shooter but because its a shitty shooter. Maybe girls have higher standards, idk. I like other shooters, and so do many girls. Its just that other shooters don't seem to count. And where are you getting your "its not prevention, its the genders not liking it" from? you dont think men try and stop females from playing thier manly man games? becuase they do. I play league of legends and if anyone realizes i'm a girl, abuse follows, usually along the lines of "women have smaller brains and thus belong in the kitchen" or something equally ridiculous.


I don't think you have the wrong idea here, i get the feeling you actually want to help. But your premises are very typical of modern day gamers. It's never modern gaming's fault, its never males fault. Its women, they just dont like modern games.

It is not that women don't like them, but they are disproportionate in buying them. Yes, there are of course many out there who do like them, but the overall trend shows those are not the majority. And yes, I am aware of more then just individual preferences when it comes to the underlying reasons why some games are chosen more then others. But give the rest of the thread some reading, you should have your questions answered. Well, except the CoD one.

I reference it because it is the most distinguishable example of its genre, one of the most successful game franchises today and is well know for the community (often for the negative reputation associated with it and the gender bais, both of which I thought important to the purpose of its use in the discussion.)

As for the rest of it, I'd suggest reading through some of the posts. We touched on a lot of things you mention.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'd rather people just listen when asked to not do things that could derail the larger conversation into the same petty arguments that litter every other thread on this topic and then act surprised when it gets a reaction.

No topic on the internet EVER stayed on topic[footnote]slight hyperbole, but only for effect[/footnote]. And honestly, if you rage at that my argument still stands. Further, this seems to dovetail with what I was saying in the first place: gamers behave tempermentally when they don't get exactly what they want. Your posts come just shy of bullying in their derision and anger. I've erred to the side of the coin that you're sincere, but it's tempting to just mark your outbursts for their inflammatory nature.

The irony here is if you hadn't responded, hadn't gotten so bent out of shape, I would have spoken my peace and left.

The answers you are angered and offended by are germane and on-topic. The problem is that you don't want to hear them.

On the plus side, I did see this.

Basically, we give game companies a monetary reason to target the female demographic.

I'm curious as to how one does this, given that women are encouraged to not even show their faces (or gender, as the case may be) in any shape or form, lest it anger the gaming community. And when you have marketing that absolutely refuses to consider women, period.

Surveys are nice, but don't equate to monetary expenditure. It's even more questionable when we're talking about a group that might not wish to disclose.

By comparison, the number of homosexuals is rising in Western nations. Did everyone suddenly become gay, or are people more willing to identify now that it's not longer a crime and the like?

But yeah, back to monetary reasons. Polls and petitions and surveys are very unconvincing. Money is good, but we'd need to demonstrate there was an actual fiscal base. And considering the number of women in this thread who have demonstrated they'd rather be anonymous and avoid harassment. And yeah, even polls may be skewed by that factor.

Now, going through kickstarter or whrough something similar might be a good idea. High risk-high reward for csumers but quite safe for publisher. After all, it's consumers that demand things, it's just to be expected that they burden the brunt of risk.

The only issue there is the high "cost" of entry. Game design, especially for a competent game, has a higher technical level required than even other media. Even film. The customers can demand it through kickstarter, but there still has to be an actual team behind it and kickstarter and the like usually work the other way around, team selling demand.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm sorry, where do people keep getting these hardcore facts? like "women dont like COD" "women dont like Mainstream games" im sorry, but that's just not true.

It is not that women don't like them, but they are disproportionate in buying them.

I'd like to see either of you back those statements on CoD up.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Participation
Female gamers have existed since the start. They have always been there, though in number far less then males, and far less then now. Why though? Well, part of it seems to be related to simple interest. I don't mean that women don't have interest in games, rather, they often just have less interest in the sort of games that are, and were, made by the mainstream. There is an established pattern in games today along genre lines that show gender interests in them. Games like The Sims, for instance, have a larger playerbase of females then of males, where as games such as CoD, this disparity is flipped. This isn't done because of some sort of prevention of the other gender from playing, but rather the decisions of the individuals revealing a pattern along gender lines. Now, the underlying reason for this pattern may be related to culture and social expectations shaping what either gender would like at a younger age.
.

I'm sorry, where do people keep getting these hardcore facts? like "women dont like COD" "women dont like Mainstream games" im sorry, but that's just not true. World of warcraft has more female's than males, skyrim has at least as many girls as guys, not to mention other mainstream games like Borderlands etc etc. And WHYYYYY Does everyone think COD is the shooter that everyone should refer to in these discussions. I hate COD, most girls do. Not because its a shooter but because its a shitty shooter. Maybe girls have higher standards, idk. I like other shooters, and so do many girls. Its just that other shooters don't seem to count. And where are you getting your "its not prevention, its the genders not liking it" from? you dont think men try and stop females from playing thier manly man games? becuase they do. I play league of legends and if anyone realizes i'm a girl, abuse follows, usually along the lines of "women have smaller brains and thus belong in the kitchen" or something equally ridiculous.


I don't think you have the wrong idea here, i get the feeling you actually want to help. But your premises are very typical of modern day gamers. It's never modern gaming's fault, its never males fault. Its women, they just dont like modern games.

It is not that women don't like them, but they are disproportionate in buying them. Yes, there are of course many out there who do like them, but the overall trend shows those are not the majority. And yes, I am aware of more then just individual preferences when it comes to the underlying reasons why some games are chosen more then others. But give the rest of the thread some reading, you should have your questions answered. Well, except the CoD one.

I reference it because it is the most distinguishable example of its genre, one of the most successful game franchises today and is well know for the community (often for the negative reputation associated with it and the gender bais, both of which I thought important to the purpose of its use in the discussion.)

As for the rest of it, I'd suggest reading through some of the posts. We touched on a lot of things you mention.

Thanks for the nice informative response. I might have gotten a bit passionate there. It annoys me beyond reason when males use the excuse that women don't like hardcore or "real/mainstream" games, and in time one just lashes out instantly at any hint of such an opinion :/

Your probably right about the buying gap, most females i know who play shooters dont actually own them, usually thier boyfriend or housemate buys it and they play it afterwards. (filthy console peasants)

I suppose it is the go-to shooter, which probably SHOULDNT be the case, as i say, its not even very good compared to many others i play. But i guess thats another debate all together...

 

[sweetylnumb]

I'm sorry, where do people keep getting these hardcore facts? like "women dont like COD" "women dont like Mainstream games" im sorry, but that's just not true.

It is not that women don't like them, but they are disproportionate in buying them.

I'd like to see either of you back those statements on CoD up.

Well i have a small group of mostly male friends and at least half of the girls play COD. None actually own it, but they play it and like it. The rest play other mainstream games, without exception (not sims or facebook games either -.-)

I take it you have evidence to the contrary then

 

[Something Amyss]

I just wanted solutions that were actually viable and opinions from across the board but that is asking too much while at the same time apparently asking too little. Alright, I understand.

Apparently not, since you're arguing against the only real viable solution.

This discussion is not for you then.

No, evidently it's not for you.

Obviously the overall issue within the society and culture itself is too large for you to ignore, even for the sake of a thread concentrating on a subculture. The place for that is not here though.

It's precisely the place. Pretending the two are different issues is, once again, false contrition. I understand you'd rather hold up a pretense of nice than actually address the issue, but you asked for problem solving, and part of that is addressing the issue.

Do you have any solutions that could even affect the overall culture at large?

If you spent less time yelling and more time reading, you would know that I answered that. Standing up is the only way things get changed. Making it socially unacceptable to behave this way is how we have progressed in the real world. Why is it any different here? Because ponies? Because you don't want your feelings hurt? Because the Kool-Aid Man is red?

But I already answered this. This goes back to the main issue here: It's not the answer you want, so you ignore it. As you have like five times now.

Which also brings me back to the essence of this thread: why ask questions you don't actually want the answers to?

 

[Something Amyss]

Well i have a small group of mostly male friends and at least half of the girls play COD. None actually own it, but they play it and like it. The rest play other mainstream games, without exception (not sims or facebook games either -.-)

I take it you have evidence to the contrary then

I asked two people with different statements on the matter the same question: for evidence. It is unlikely I would have evidence to the contrary for both of you.

I merely wished to see if either of you could back up your statements, as they seem to be nothing more than more assumption. Refuting "girls don't like Call of Duty" with "yes they do" is meaningless.

Additionally, anecdotes are nice and all, but they don't equal any trend beyond your friends. If I did the same, I could ascertain nearly half of gamers were homosexual, because nearly half of my friends are gay.

I would merely like to see something other than speculation and stereotypes to counter speculation and stereotypes.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Well i have a small group of mostly male friends and at least half of the girls play COD. None actually own it, but they play it and like it. The rest play other mainstream games, without exception (not sims or facebook games either -.-)

I take it you have evidence to the contrary then

I asked two people with different statements on the matter the same question: for evidence. It is unlikely I would have evidence to the contrary for both of you.

I merely wished to see if either of you could back up your statements, as they seem to be nothing more than more assumption. Refuting "girls don't like Call of Duty" with "yes they do" is meaningless.

Additionally, anecdotes are nice and all, but they don't equal any trend beyond your friends. If I did the same, I could ascertain nearly half of gamers were homosexual, because nearly half of my friends are gay.

I would merely like to see something other than speculation and stereotypes to counter speculation and stereotypes.

Fairly certain that someone posted a graph showing the numbers of women and men that bought/or played Call of Duty 4 somewhere in this thread.

 

[runic knight]

I just wanted solutions that were actually viable and opinions from across the board but that is asking too much while at the same time apparently asking too little. Alright, I understand.

Apparently not, since you're arguing against the only real viable solution.

This discussion is not for you then.

No, evidently it's not for you.

Obviously the overall issue within the society and culture itself is too large for you to ignore, even for the sake of a thread concentrating on a subculture. The place for that is not here though.

It's precisely the place. Pretending the two are different issues is, once again, false contrition. I understand you'd rather hold up a pretense of nice than actually address the issue, but you asked for problem solving, and part of that is addressing the issue.

Do you have any solutions that could even affect the overall culture at large?

If you spent less time yelling and more time reading, you would know that I answered that. Standing up is the only way things get changed. Making it socially unacceptable to behave this way is how we have progressed in the real world. Why is it any different here? Because ponies? Because you don't want your feelings hurt? Because the Kool-Aid Man is red?

But I already answered this. This goes back to the main issue here: It's not the answer you want, so you ignore it. As you have like five times now.

Which also brings me back to the essence of this thread: why ask questions you don't actually want the answers to?

I am sorry you don't like that this thread isn't about your opinions on cultural injustices and is instead about, essentially, what the average gamer can and would be willing to do to help an issue within gaming itself. I am sorry that you wont let it go, nor understand that I don't care about the entirety of culture in this thread because of the lack of capacity to enact change on that level.

Please stop posting the same thing repeatedly after being asked to stay on topic and to stay away from the broader topic that will derail the thread. Your opinions have been noted, now please quit trying to hijack the thread.

 

[runic knight]

Participation
Female gamers have existed since the start. They have always been there, though in number far less then males, and far less then now. Why though? Well, part of it seems to be related to simple interest. I don't mean that women don't have interest in games, rather, they often just have less interest in the sort of games that are, and were, made by the mainstream. There is an established pattern in games today along genre lines that show gender interests in them. Games like The Sims, for instance, have a larger playerbase of females then of males, where as games such as CoD, this disparity is flipped. This isn't done because of some sort of prevention of the other gender from playing, but rather the decisions of the individuals revealing a pattern along gender lines. Now, the underlying reason for this pattern may be related to culture and social expectations shaping what either gender would like at a younger age.
.

I'm sorry, where do people keep getting these hardcore facts? like "women dont like COD" "women dont like Mainstream games" im sorry, but that's just not true. World of warcraft has more female's than males, skyrim has at least as many girls as guys, not to mention other mainstream games like Borderlands etc etc. And WHYYYYY Does everyone think COD is the shooter that everyone should refer to in these discussions. I hate COD, most girls do. Not because its a shooter but because its a shitty shooter. Maybe girls have higher standards, idk. I like other shooters, and so do many girls. Its just that other shooters don't seem to count. And where are you getting your "its not prevention, its the genders not liking it" from? you dont think men try and stop females from playing thier manly man games? becuase they do. I play league of legends and if anyone realizes i'm a girl, abuse follows, usually along the lines of "women have smaller brains and thus belong in the kitchen" or something equally ridiculous.


I don't think you have the wrong idea here, i get the feeling you actually want to help. But your premises are very typical of modern day gamers. It's never modern gaming's fault, its never males fault. Its women, they just dont like modern games.

It is not that women don't like them, but they are disproportionate in buying them. Yes, there are of course many out there who do like them, but the overall trend shows those are not the majority. And yes, I am aware of more then just individual preferences when it comes to the underlying reasons why some games are chosen more then others. But give the rest of the thread some reading, you should have your questions answered. Well, except the CoD one.

I reference it because it is the most distinguishable example of its genre, one of the most successful game franchises today and is well know for the community (often for the negative reputation associated with it and the gender bais, both of which I thought important to the purpose of its use in the discussion.)

As for the rest of it, I'd suggest reading through some of the posts. We touched on a lot of things you mention.

Thanks for the nice informative response. I might have gotten a bit passionate there. It annoys me beyond reason when males use the excuse that women don't like hardcore or "real/mainstream" games, and in time one just lashes out instantly at any hint of such an opinion :/

Your probably right about the buying gap, most females i know who play shooters dont actually own them, usually thier boyfriend or housemate buys it and they play it afterwards. (filthy console peasants)

I suppose it is the go-to shooter, which probably SHOULDNT be the case, as i say, its not even very good compared to many others i play. But i guess thats another debate all together...

Not a problem. You mention something I hadn't thought of before though, that of spouse and relationships. I would have to bet that would play into effect who plays and enjoys games, but would also have an impact on who and how many people buy the games. Good thing to bring up, as I was essentially going on the presumption that those that play buy the game they play, ignoring a chunk of the population that don't, and would be less likely to be listened to by a market that values what is sold.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Well i have a small group of mostly male friends and at least half of the girls play COD. None actually own it, but they play it and like it. The rest play other mainstream games, without exception (not sims or facebook games either -.-)

I take it you have evidence to the contrary then

I asked two people with different statements on the matter the same question: for evidence. It is unlikely I would have evidence to the contrary for both of you.

I merely wished to see if either of you could back up your statements, as they seem to be nothing more than more assumption. Refuting "girls don't like Call of Duty" with "yes they do" is meaningless.

Additionally, anecdotes are nice and all, but they don't equal any trend beyond your friends. If I did the same, I could ascertain nearly half of gamers were homosexual, because nearly half of my friends are gay.

I would merely like to see something other than speculation and stereotypes to counter speculation and stereotypes.

Well obviously i cant speak for anyone other than myself and my own experiences. But it would be quite arrogant of me to assume that my group of friends is special and that my tiny corner of the world is not repeated elsewhere. Therefore my experience is proof enough that females can and do play games,and like call of duty, the exact number is, of coerce, debatable. And actually i have a similar number of gay friends, so maybe that is actually the case? just sayin.