Women gaming problems, solution discussion 1

[white_wolf]

Participation

Yes women have been in gaming from the start we tend to fallow compelling characters who have great stories or we like the goal they wish to achieve however those old school girls who grew up on gaming are getting sick of constantly fallowing the male lead on his quest to do X even if it?s a good quest even if his background and personality are compelling his generic self makes it old so women gamers go, ? When do I get to play myself in a video game? Because guys are playing themselves every month. I?d like to play as a real female lead getting out of those situations? then there are males in the community who respond to that and say you aren?t a real gamer and you don?t belong here or say you?re a feminist and that cancels out anything you have to say. So women wanting to see shooters, rpgs, and action adventures with more female leads that actually portray their story from her unique pov instead of a man with breast pov means she?s a feminazi or not a real gamer instead of a gamer whose bored playing the same old no personality cookie cut out lead male role and her possibly wanting to play as a relatable in form lead is horrid? Right?.

See men can have both the form, background, goal agreement, and or admire the traits of the hero but women are being told by developers and gamers alike that they can?t because it won?t sell, they aren?t gamers, they have no interest in games like the AAAs, or simply you?ll give the men cutties if we make a game for you. I love how they removed Nillan?s boyfriend because the men would freak if she kissed him not threw him down God of War style and screwed him just a kiss maybe even a ½ second kiss gone a chunk of her story of her character removed just so the game could make it to the shelf.

Women want compelling women to fallow and in the past that wasn?t always a problem in the PS days we had several games with female leads, back in the Saturn days we had them Game Cube, ect but then the water got cut off now we only get maybe a few every 5 years or so and that?s suppose to be equal and good enough and oh their stories are crap but who cares go get it girl! Having a female led game every 1 - 6 months would go along way to helping women feel happier about their gaming choices and having those female leads in genres they already play like shooters, sports, racers, rpgs, ect

For instance them playing a FPS with a women lead who may not have been the captain of the unit but gets captured by the enemy, frees herself and her male squadmates and they all fight to get themselves and their captain out of enemy territory could be a good game so long as she?s not macho girl Vazquez and maybe more like Ripley or better yet more like Nillan or Faith who are strong but normal women. She would rise to overcome the obstacles and prove she?s more then just a solider as she leads the team in wake of her captains injuries. Then her sequel game makes her the top pick of the new story for the job to do X because of her leadership and bravery men and women would want to fallow this character around.

When they make a female lead character they?re still trying to appeal to the men see Blood Rayne. They need to make women who appeal to women so she can admire the girl on screen or want to be as heroic as her. Good portrayal of women overcoming their game?s challenges have occurred in the past like clock tower, shin megami, and parasite eve. More recently we have Portal though Chells a mute and could?ve been a dog with no change in the way the game worked but Nillian in Remember Me was impressive for me personally I liked her conflict moments and reflection times. The gaming industry just needs to put in effort instead of taking the easy way out of not having them as leads at all, making them eye or arm candy, wrapping the box in pink, giving us cute animals to take care of, or making the whole thing to be for 12 and under girly hurl girly hurling girls.

Taking out unnecessary sexulization would be good too. A great way to illustrate this is compare Mass Effect Shep?s crew her/his crew and he/she were both respected clothing wise all armor made sense as well as their casual outfits and the strippers stayed in Cora?s Den.

Now look at Mass Effect 2 Shep female gets a sexy skin tight min as well be painted on dress, a boob job, a face redo that makes her look like Gackt (oh how it sucks!), and red hair (she use to be brown haired like male shep), and then we have the crew sex abound we have Jack and her strap shirt, Samura and her cleavage navel top, Mirada?s famous cat suit, Jacobs manly cat suit showing his package, Thane's chest (though in his defense its explained), Tali gets buckles to draw attention to her chest, as you can see huge difference ME2 got unnecessary sex placed into that crew the strippers were no longer in bar they were on your ship and it was not needed.

If Bioware wanted to say release a sexy dlc pack that gave you the option to place Miranda in her white catsuit, Jacob in his, Samara in her naval suit, and Jack in her breast strap but in the real game gave them battle ready and decent clothing and Jack a gothic appeal with a vest (or her dlc vest one) that would been fine no forcing it on you and making the past women players of ME feel disrespected. Mass Effect wanted to be serious so keep it that way with your clothing too if you want it to be like Blood Rayne where its all about blood sex and vampires then it makes sense for her to run around like a dominatrix I?m not buying it but that doesn?t mean someone isn?t. When your characters aren?t dressing their parts it doesn?t help in so many ways.

 

[mecegirl]

Twilight as part of a discussion of solutions?

Twilight is misogyny written by a woman, baffles me how grown-ass women love that garbage.

So, I say no to a Twilight game.

I think that was referenced as a sort of "why hasn't anyone tried this" sort of thing. WE all know how much companies like to milk successful intellectual properties, and games are no better there at times. Hell, we had star wars dance off for crying out loud.

Though, yeah, I can't say the lack of a twilight game is anything but good for the world in the end, as selfish a view as it is

Yeah...It's more of a "This seems like easy money" thing (Although movie/book based games tend to suck). Even the Hunger games wouldn't make that good of a game, though the main character has more potential as a protagonist.

 

[prpshrt]

Wouldn't the cost barrier be the same for male gamers too? I did read your post but forgive me if I missed it, and by cost do you mean that they can't justify the cost of a game as opposed to actually being able to afford. Anyways, the best solution IMO is not making a big deal if you see a woman gaming or hear over voice chat. It's strange to me that people make a big deal anyways. I react the same way to women gaming as I would to see a sitting next to me in a movie theater. I don't (in the sense that I think it's normal and its not out of the ordinary and don't really think about it) :\

 

[white_wolf]

So, how do we encourage acceptance of the newer or casual gamers? Hmm...I know part of the backlash is misplaced blame.

The obvious thing that everyone can do: Be friendly and helpful towards these players yourself, don't blame them if they make mistakes, and try to be a positive influence on your friends and peers who aren't. Don't be elitist, don't look down upon casual-friendly games and their players, don't complain about easy modes in games, don't proclaim that "true" gamers should only play like this or that, and so on. This will make games a better place for everyone, not just women or new players. Game companies also need to adopt a zero tolerance policy against harassment and abuse - and enforce it. But of course we all know that only gets you this far.

You can also foster a more welcoming environment through game design itself, game design that fosters good behavior and rewards it. I'm wondering why we only see so little of that. Why don't we see mentorship systems in MMOs and similar games, for example? Systems that match experienced with inexperienced players. Being a mentor can be a personally very rewarding and meaningful experience in itself, as many parents or teachers can attest, but you can do more with game design. Create game content that you can only experience if you are a mentor-mentee-pair (or group), such as special quests or missions with special rewards, story content (cheesy as hell: old player knighting the new one). You can also offer the experienced player "material" rewards for engaging in such a relationship, be it game currency, items, titles, or optical rewards, so everyone can see that this player is a really nice guy or girl. It also helps, of course, if the game world itself allows for meaningful cooperation between players of different levels of experience, instead of dividing them, as all too many MMOs do.
Sometimes, all it takes is a little nudge.

This is a great idea not for women to get into gaming per say but really to encourage male and female players who avoid MMOs because of its community ills or due to the complexity of the game itself a player may feel overwhelmed to even attempt picking up an MMO because there is tons of little tricks they'll need to make their lives online a success as quickly and with less pain as possible and mentors could really help them with that gain that push start to feel like they aren't in over their heads.

 

[mecegirl]

Wouldn't the cost barrier be the same for male gamers too? I did read your post but forgive me if I missed it, and by cost do you mean that they can't justify the cost of a game as opposed to actually being able to afford. Anyways, the best solution IMO is not making a big deal if you see a woman gaming or hear over voice chat. It's strange to me that people make a big deal anyways. I react the same way to women gaming as I would to see a sitting next to me in a movie theater. I don't (in the sense that I think it's normal and its not out of the ordinary and don't really think about it) :\

Its more about justifying the price for something when you are not in love with it. Yeah it looks kinda cool but when there isn't a game that makes you go "WOW I MUST BUY THIS!" why bother? We gamers have all had that experience. Some games look cool enough, others knock your socks off. Others leave you eating up every screen cap, every piece of official art work, and every trailer. Does one purchase a gaming console on the off chance that something wows them later when all the games they've seen so far have done nothing for them? And with most games targeted for a male audience its probably more likely for a guy to see his first "Awesome got to have this!" game than a girl.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

-First textbomb snip-

I hadn't even gotten to portrayal of women in games yet, though I think the interconnected nature of these things does make it hard to avoid for a later time. You make a good point that even a simple token of a female protagonist would help with the idea of feeling welcome and therefore with participation. And at worst all it does is increase the option for all players, something that is good because variety. Hell, I would go so far as to say it could be as simple as a minor character model and skin tweak without affecting animations at all might get a workable result to make it cost effective at that.

Beyond that, a lot of what you talk about are valid issues within the gaming industry. The state of the large companies and the directions they seem to take are a problem all gamers face, and it does affect female players more so, if only because the choices don't acknowledge them at all. And it raises a lot of great points and information. But, I don't know how much we can do to adjust that when the problems are there largely because those companies haven't been listening to customers very well through anything but focus groups to begin with. That seems to be the problem with most of your first monster post, as good it is to have all that piled into one place, there is not a lot of direction there aside from blaming the companies that do it. Hell, I would love to have more variety in large scale game types, but I doubt that is going to happen as things are now.

Still, I suppose since everything is interconnected, finding solutions to some might lead to solutions to others. A larger player base would lead to more varied demand would lead to more game types demanded could lead to larger companies making more. And even if not, larger playerbase can't be a bad thing anyways, right?

I guess, after digging through all those problems, what are solutions we as players can come up with that are both within our ability to do and still effective to start the ball rolling?

Yeah I had a feeling I was drifting off topic. lol
Sorry.

I do find it hard to talk about some part of this issue without something related linking to it. Like potato chips, a spider web, or something. Passions run hot, too. I care about gaming.

I can't pretend to know what will lead to what, or what has lead to what as we address issues. Just make educated guesses.
One strong theory I have is better representation will lead to greater participation.

I really don't think we can do much but be loud, and be vocal, or if one is young enough to prepare for the industry, in the industry, or in a position to join, they should, and try from the inside. Of course it's just a suggestion.

Yeah, I largely blame the industry, but I recognize all facets of the gamer culture are partially to blame.
I didn't link:
http://fatuglyorslutty.com/
or
http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/
or
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28269391/ns/technology_and_science-games/t/will-you-feel-home-playstation-home/
as some prime examples of the gamers running women out, and hurting the participation factor? Not all the gamers, mind you, but, well, this isn't giving the best first impressions.
Pretty sure my previous list covered marketing, producers, and developers.

Honestly, trying to fix the -community's- problems with women participating in gaming? May as well ask me to bench press the great wall of china. Humanity's largely hopeless in that regard.
Sure there's good people, but there's always going to be bad eggs.

Still, the way I see it the solution is simple. The industry needs to stop controlling developers, and let developers work. I don't know exactly when the gaming industry got so... like they are now, but we've had developers just making games for a long time, haven't we? We've generally done fine short of the giant game crash some 30 years ago up intil, I'd say the PS3 era.
When it comes down to it, the companies make the decisions on what they put out, not the consumers. They don't have to listen to the consumers, or anyone, and I put forth that they shouldn't. Look where it's gotten them?
I can't help but blame them largely because they make what we buy, and we have to buy what they make if we want to play videogames. I'm speaking about the industry as a whole because I can't point fingers at many, if any companies and say "It's them! They're responsible for the bad image the gaming industry has!"
That said, they aren't solely to blame, just the major target.

 

[white_wolf]

snip

Anyone who says females are not gamers, those individuals are idiots and are a loud minority, and should be ignored. But when it comes to these genres that are pandered towards males, as long as the vast majority of the people playing them are males these publishers will go with what they think is the easy money.

Sad truth is, the reliable female market jumped into the gaming world too late, and it will take a fair amount of time for things to change how they want them. You cant just demand change, you have to work for it, much like the existing male dominated system had to work for it... ESPECIALLY after the crash.

A major problem is that the most experienced game makers are males, and it makes sense that they are the ones being sought out to make games, if women want to get involved they have to work from the ground up like the guys did. It is getting better, slowly.

Can't cling to double-standards and expect to be taken seriously.

EDIT: Also, the changes to female Shepard were voted on, the default female Shepard is literally what Mass Effect fans wanted.

Been nice if male Shepard got the same treatment.

Sure Jerks are ignored as much as they can be but you do realize for women who've been playing 30 + years in the industry to be told they're not serious still grinds or hurts depending on the woman.

The only ones I see demanding change are I guess the new gamers? or feminazis but this ginning up is also prompting women who've gamed since Atari to say you know I've been suppressing my want for a female games for way to long maybe I too should say something to at least drown out the feminist making it about girlpower instead of empowerment? So you've actually got 3 entirely different segments all being thrown in under the new or yet to be pulled in gamer boxes but some have been there for way longer then this year or last. Most people I see posting are not from the feminist but from the I'm tired of not playing my form I'd really like more then weeds from time to time can I get a whole flower pot of games compared with the men's jungle of games please? In the past PS and backwards there were many more games with female leads and guess what they sold then it stopped and the companies decided you know what girls sink ships lets not make many and if we do make them lets shove them in the life boat with a hole in it and lets make sure its not a life boat thats too good cuz we might need the good one for a male game. That type of developer attitidue isn't going to help things either.

However I agree with another post who says a girl who isn't into games won't be made to want to play them. The girl already has to have an interest to even just pick up the box and read the back if she can pick it up and read it then you could bring her into the gaming world but pink boxes is only going to drive her away.

I know Femshep's red hair was voted on but do you know what? They did that poll twice! The first time blonde shepard won fair, square, and in the lead alot then there was a HUGE BLITZ of blondes suck and no bimbo shep and we DEMAND a ginger so much so BW did the poll again put placed it on FB and guess who won? Red head Gackt thats who. The original poll had red head shep below blonde shep by a large portion then after the backlash red shep miraculously become the huge winner? Foul is easy to do when its on FB polling and you can register multiple accounts with minimal effort and or just hit up all 1000 of your FB friends and say help me win this and vote for red! Lucky for me they have decent customization so no Gackt femshep for me!

EDIT: while the hair color was a vote the gamers didn't vote on breast enhancement and Gackt doppelganger the image they used of her was much softer and prettier then what the in game render actually is. Though maybe the Gackt face is the same reason why Miranda out of cutscene looks like Micheal Jackson ingame the numbers just don't translate well.

 

[white_wolf]

I just wish female gamer wasn't so often tied to `New gamer` and `casual gamer`.
I mean, you've got a little disclaimer that female gamers have of course always been here, but then just really kinda go on to talk about new female gamers.

Every time someone brings up the number of female gamers there's always someone else quick to jump in and say `Oh but they're mostly casual gamers!`. Maybe they are, but core female gamers do exist. I can't make other women play, and frankly I wouldn't really want to.
There are some issues that core female gamers face, obviously harassment, but I'm pretty good at dodging that by remaining invisible and gender neutral in the right spaces, but there's more annoying stuff. I can't really talk as much as I'd like with new people about games without them assuming I'm either new or casual all the damn time. I've been told by different people that I'm somehow intruding on a `male space`. Then there's the stupid condescension, hell, even some of my friends get shirty when they lose to me.
I don't think we can do much about new gamers until we stop flipping out about the ones we already have.

It's kind of a no-win situation. People assume female gamers are new because we cant be `out` online safely.

Very true. I can't even go into the game store to buy my pre-order without someone assuming I got it for my boyfriend or assume I'm lost and need help. Maybe the latter is them being nice but when a man comes in right behind me that same clerk doesn't go to him and say, "You need help?".

 

[runic knight]

Twilight as part of a discussion of solutions?

Twilight is misogyny written by a woman, baffles me how grown-ass women love that garbage.

So, I say no to a Twilight game.

I think that was referenced as a sort of "why hasn't anyone tried this" sort of thing. WE all know how much companies like to milk successful intellectual properties, and games are no better there at times. Hell, we had star wars dance off for crying out loud.

Though, yeah, I can't say the lack of a twilight game is anything but good for the world in the end, as selfish a view as it is

Yeah...It's more of a "This seems like easy money" thing (Although movie/book based games tend to suck). Even the Hunger games wouldn't make that good of a game, though the main character has more potential as a protagonist.

For hunger games, I think that is less about sexism or gender preference and more about "Oh my god, we can NOT make a game about teenagers killing other teenagers after all the school shooters"

At least twilight you could theoretically go with "Vampire Deer Hunting" for something action related. With hunger games, it is hard to divorce yourself enough for kids dying to save that from being destroyed by moral crusaders.

 

[runic knight]

Wouldn't the cost barrier be the same for male gamers too? I did read your post but forgive me if I missed it, and by cost do you mean that they can't justify the cost of a game as opposed to actually being able to afford. Anyways, the best solution IMO is not making a big deal if you see a woman gaming or hear over voice chat. It's strange to me that people make a big deal anyways. I react the same way to women gaming as I would to see a sitting next to me in a movie theater. I don't (in the sense that I think it's normal and its not out of the ordinary and don't really think about it) :\

The cost thing is a barrier of entry for any newcomer, male or female. If someone sees something the like and want to try out, it will quickly go into how much it will cost to participate. Now for gamers that have been with it for a while, this cost is seen through the leans of a long term investment. We know a system will have multiple games and in the end we can balance out the cost to something more reasonable. With a new comer, it is a bigger risk. They have no surety they will enjoy the game, or even if they do now, if they will enjoy other games or not get bored after a short time. Thus, a $300 dollar console with $60 dollar games is very intimidating and a deterrent for new people to the hobby. Then start to add in how the community is viewed, how the community itself acts and everything else and we start seeing things get pretty discouraging for someone outside the fold to get into games.
Now think about how people learn about games. Advertisement, public opinion and the most influential, word of mouth. Because of how the community is more likely to treat one gender over the other, to say nothing of how companies often advertise, and suddenly there looks to be more then just supply and demand influencing thing. After all, why would anyone pay $400 dollars to be part of a community that may treat you like shit for not being there long enough, is seen by the public as only recently tolerable and "in", and may not even be enjoyed for very long before tiring of it?

You know, maybe this explains part of the reason women are more common in puzzle and sim type games, games with a much lower pay entry point. A lot less risk, quick and easy to get and get involved in, more removed from the core gaming community... hmm. Anyone have other thoughts on this one?

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Actually, a bit part of growing up is realising that if you expect other people to 'harden up' chances are, you're the problem.

You are not entitled to a world where people automatically put the things you want above the things they want.

And why should anyone bother to construct more compelling cases as they already have? For you? You've obviously been ignorant so far, and after reading such a comment, I doubt that's going to change.

Because while I'm perfectly fine with the status quo continuing on and into the future, you lot seem to be grossly unhappy with how things are progressing. So it is in your best interest to realise that there is an important difference between preaching to the already converted, and presenting your case to people who think differently from yourselves in a manner where everyone stands to gain something.

 

[Bruce]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Actually, a bit part of growing up is realising that if you expect other people to 'harden up' chances are, you're the problem.

You are not entitled to a world where people automatically put the things you want above the things they want.

Gaming is optional. It is not something a person has to do - so making it an unwelcome experience for them means we get less gamers, and less people buying the product.

Because people change over time, and any business has to get in fresh blood to replace that attrition. If you only focus on the markets you have already got, you end up fighting for a diminishing market over time.

So expecting for example, women to harden up over highly unwelcoming conditions - they can just choose other entertainment mediums, and the market shrinks.

Making the gaming community welcoming to other groups and expanding the market has a beneficial effect for publishers, consumers and developers. If we can expand triple A gaming into a larger market, making it more appealing for women, more money enters the system because you have more people spending. That in turn means it becomes a more attractive market overall to enter, which attracts more developers, and more new publishers - meaning more games for us.

Not only that, there is a massive amount of untapped talent that isn't getting into gaming because they haven't found it an appealing medium. Most game devs start as gamers. Getting more women in on the consumer side, means getting more women in on the developer side, which means more talent is available and more new ideas enter gaming producing better games for the rest of us.

Telling people to harden up - ultimately you shouldn't have to harden up to enjoy playing video games.

 

[mecegirl]

You know, maybe this explains part of the reason women are more common in puzzle and sim type games, games with a much lower pay entry point. A lot less risk, quick and easy to get and get involved in, more removed from the core gaming community... hmm. Anyone have other thoughts on this one?

Some of it may be the marketing. They are just fun games that anyone can play. For older women (into college and beyond) it may be a time thing. I know plenty of gamers male and female who saw their gaming time cut short by responsibilities. If I wasn't a gamer since childhood I'd doubt that I'd get into gaming later in life because of time. Sim players are a very particular breed. Male or female they just like the simulated life thing and would regardless.


On the price thing I'm gonna go on a tangent. I remember what "games for girls" looked like when I was younger....absolute shit. I'm not certain if that has changed. Back in the day some of them had things that I was interested in, so if not for the quality I would have gotten them. But perhaps because I also liked video games that were not targeted to girls it always came back to one thing. Why should I ask my parents to pay the same price for a shitty looking game as apposed to a nicer looking one? It was more than obviouls that these games had small budgets. I didn't think that far back then, I only went by appearance, but considering that that market never took off it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of girls noticed the lack of quality. The Barbie ones probably sold well, anything else probably flopped. And with how some publishers are they probably saw girls not purchasing girly games as a sign that girls don't like games (When they were probably just buying any other game than the "girly" ones)

Now I don't know how well "games for girls" sell now. I do know that there are a ton of stereotypically girly flash games for free on the internet on sites like this one. http://www.dolldivine.com/ So any "girly" games on the market now have to compete with free games.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Actually, a bit part of growing up is realising that if you expect other people to 'harden up' chances are, you're the problem.

You are not entitled to a world where people automatically put the things you want above the things they want.

Gaming is optional. It is not something a person has to do - so making it an unwelcome experience for them means we get less gamers, and less people buying the product.

Because people change over time, and any business has to get in fresh blood to replace that attrition. If you only focus on the markets you have already got, you end up fighting for a diminishing market over time.

So expecting for example, women to harden up over highly unwelcoming conditions - they can just choose other entertainment mediums, and the market shrinks.

Making the gaming community welcoming to other groups and expanding the market has a beneficial effect for publishers, consumers and developers. If we can expand triple A gaming into a larger market, making it more appealing for women, more money enters the system because you have more people spending. That in turn means it becomes a more attractive market overall to enter, which attracts more developers, and more new publishers - meaning more games for us.

Not only that, there is a massive amount of untapped talent that isn't getting into gaming because they haven't found it an appealing medium. Most game devs start as gamers. Getting more women in on the consumer side, means getting more women in on the developer side, which means more talent is available and more new ideas enter gaming producing better games for the rest of us.

Telling people to harden up - ultimately you shouldn't have to harden up to enjoy playing video games.

In essence you are making an appeal for wider diversity, and taken on face value I have absolutely no problem with this occurring. But making future gaming titles for a wider and more diverse audience should not come at the expense of the diversity that already exists, and that some of us already rightly enjoy. If you truly believe that the video game industry can make inroads into what is potentially an underutilized section of the market then there is absolutely no logical reason that I can think of to approach this problem with the objective of robbing Peter to pay Pauline. If what you say is true and I truly hope that it is, then there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit down and enjoy video games. If the potential for real market growth still exists then the industry should be able to construct additional table and chairs with which to seat everyone. Nobody, even the people that we don't necessarily like need to be deliberately left out so that our table appears to be a more attractive place to sit to people who might make up this future market growth. If there is one demographic that I do not wish to share my hobby with is those that need other people who also happen to be into the same thing as they are to meet certain standards and criteria, before they permit themselves to enjoy it.

Over the long term gaming will be all the richer if we leave narrow-minded people to their narrow minded devices. If the litmus test has to be that someone needs to be able to ignore the existence of games they don't like and get on with loving those games that they enjoy then that is a true recipe for diversity. Nothing needs to change, all we need to do is keep adding ingredients to the pot. And if the very existence of certain games ruins gaming for certain people then it is those people that ultimately have a problem and not gaming. This where people need to take their concrete and carry on playing the games they do like and learn to live with the fact that games they don't like exist and will continue to exist long into the future. A library is no library at all unless you can find within it a book that you personally find offensive. It cannot meaningfully teach or instruct. All it is good for is indoctrination.

I think the wider gaming community that does not favour anonymous communication and chooses to invest something of themselves in their online lives lean towards intolerance of intolerance, but for me that extends to those that would complain metaphorically that I sometimes chose to buy a nicely tailored suit over an equally nicely made unisex muumuu.

That just pisses me off.

 

[Bruce]

Grow the fuck up, and stop throwing tantrums because the industry is not and never will be a slurry of inoffensively homogenized and politically-correct content. The endless threads of rage while certainly entertaining are ultimately non-productive. And part of growing up is taking that all important teaspoon of concrete and hardening the fuck up. Recognize that everyone else does not actually give a flying fuck about your entitled and wholly self-interested crusade that is waged in the name of attacking other people's self-interested entitlement to products they've paid good money for.

What you must do is construct a compelling case as to where, when, why and how your self-interest is both compatible and complementary to the self-interest of others. That's going to work a lot better for you over the long run than screaming like monkeys and flinging poo at the people who like the things you don't like.

Actually, a bit part of growing up is realising that if you expect other people to 'harden up' chances are, you're the problem.

You are not entitled to a world where people automatically put the things you want above the things they want.

Gaming is optional. It is not something a person has to do - so making it an unwelcome experience for them means we get less gamers, and less people buying the product.

Because people change over time, and any business has to get in fresh blood to replace that attrition. If you only focus on the markets you have already got, you end up fighting for a diminishing market over time.

So expecting for example, women to harden up over highly unwelcoming conditions - they can just choose other entertainment mediums, and the market shrinks.

Making the gaming community welcoming to other groups and expanding the market has a beneficial effect for publishers, consumers and developers. If we can expand triple A gaming into a larger market, making it more appealing for women, more money enters the system because you have more people spending. That in turn means it becomes a more attractive market overall to enter, which attracts more developers, and more new publishers - meaning more games for us.

Not only that, there is a massive amount of untapped talent that isn't getting into gaming because they haven't found it an appealing medium. Most game devs start as gamers. Getting more women in on the consumer side, means getting more women in on the developer side, which means more talent is available and more new ideas enter gaming producing better games for the rest of us.

Telling people to harden up - ultimately you shouldn't have to harden up to enjoy playing video games.

In essence you are making an appeal for wider diversity, and taken on face value I have absolutely no problem with this occurring. But making future gaming titles for a wider and more diverse audience should not come at the expense of the diversity that already exists, and that some of us already rightly enjoy.

And that is part of what I mean at least when I say we need to encourage a wider and more diverse market. And it is what I see from a lot of feminists talking about games, it isn't that they want to ban any game having X - its that they would like to see games with Y and Z being developed with significant budgets.

I think the solution isn't less it is more. I see a lot of people talk about sexy female characters - and what's the problem with that? Well there isn't one, but maybe we could do with a few who aren't sexy - just to have that variety.

And we need to learn from the stuff that pisses us off too. Think about the Mass Effect 3 ending drama - when did that really get bad? It was when the people who were complaining were told to stop being so 'entitled' and just more or less deal with it. And that was gaming journalists, and the profession hasn't really recovered from it because all that did was build rage and a sense of exclusion.

Somebody complains, that is not really an issue so much, there is always something to complain about and somebody to complain about it. Exclusion comes in, when those complaints are treated with contempt.

*edit for dropped word.

 

[broca]

The only solution I see is to just make more female protagonists in a better variety than boobsticks, and ass shots.
Women want power trips, too! And NPCs aren't going to deliver that!

More games could make the gender of their protagonists flexible too. It's not exactly like every game that features a fixed gender male protagonist has such a specific, tightly woven narrative that him being male matters that much.

Yeah, but depending of who you ask (or listen to on this forum) this is not enough. Part of the problem of making female representation better is that there is no female hive mind to agree on what making better actually means. Is a sexualized character a problem or not? Where to draw the line? Or are sexualized chars okay as long as applies to males and females equally? Are more female characters enough or does writing them need to change too? Are tropes a problem? Should they be completely vanish or just be less regular? And so on...

What's that supposed to mean? Sure, it's not enough for many, me included, but does that mean I shouldn't welcome a step in the right direction?

No, i just wanted to point out that this solution isn't a step in the right direction in everyones opinion, as i know people argued against it because it was considered not good enough. Sometimes in this discussions it feels like people (not you in particular) lump all females together and try to find a solution that works for everyone, even as the problems and opinions about what to do are often very different from individual to individual.

Taking a step in the right direction doesn't have to mean that you're already where you want to be after taking this step. Or, in your words, that it already is "good enough".

Or am I misunderstanding you here? If so, name one single person on my side of the fence who believes that making the gender of a previously fixed gender male protagonist flexible (insofar the narrative allows it) is a step in the wrong direction, and explain to me his/her reasoning.

The argument (by someone somewhere in the hundreds of threats on the topic) was that they wanted stories that have a genuine female perspective, not just a gender neutral one and therefore saw flexible genders as a distraction from that goal (that's at least how i remember it).