Xbox 720: No disk drive, No used games.

[Twilight_guy]

I'm interested in seeing where this would go. With no external media this would be sort of like Steam. Id be interested to see if the idea takes off and if it actually helps anything. It'd be a nice test of how many irate gamers actually stand by there "arr, this shit be bad, boycott" stance.

 

[VladG]

It is just a rumor as of this moment. If Microsoft didn't do used games, and Sony did, the PS4 would win the next console generation on day one. Regardless of what you personally think about GameStop (or Amazon, or Ebay, or Craigslist, apparently), so many people buy used games that not being able to would cripple Microsoft.

Exactly. Many people invest in a console because they know they can buy used games as well. How many can actually afford to buy a new game every few weeks?

Cutting used sales would decrease the market for a new console significantly. Hell, you'd probably see more 360 sales, simply because people know they have a large, cheap selection of games available.

 

[Something Amyss]

Just like ME3.

Sadly, yes. Just like ME 3. and many of the other recent games nobody was gonna buy that sold millions.

 

[Treblaine]

The problem is, you're still cutting off a large section of the consumer market. Many people buy used to try a game out, then return it without losing investment if they don't like the game.

Secondly, game retailers don't hike prices that much, if at all. Prices are set at an industry standard to promote competition. Hence, Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, and GameStop all sell new games for the same price across the board. While it would be nice if they lowered prices as a return for no used games, it wouldn't happen, because people have been shown to pay that much before, and removing profit goes against what every company stands for.

The problem with that is like a world where the down-payment to Test-Drive a car is the exact same price as buying a car.

Try-before-you-buy is TOTALLY covered by:
-demos
-free weekends
-guest-passes
-free-to-play
-(super-sales = low risk purchase)

People do NOT buy used games to "try". They buy them to PLAY! They RENT games to try.

"Secondly, game retailers don't hike prices that much, if at all."

They must hike prices SOMEWHAT otherwise they'd be operating as a charity or even deliberately bankrupting their company. If they sold games for the same price the publishers sell them to for, then they'd just be wasting a dickload of money in upkeep of stores, transport, heating, electricity, staffing, insurance, rent, etc

"While it would be nice if they lowered prices as a return for no used games, it wouldn't happen"

It did with PC's Steam, GoG, Apple App Store, Android Marketplace, etc... all the markets that have gone pure-digital prices have plummeted.

"removing profit goes against what every company stands for."

A Poor businessman thinks the only way to increase profit is through increased price-tag. Look at ACTUAL successful businesses, its all about 'piling high and selling cheap'. Sony broke into the gaming market beating Nintendo this way that stuck with expensive cartridges while Sony went with cheaper discs. Today, digital is to discs as discs were to cartridges. If Microsoft goes digital-only then they'll have to reduce cost to be competitive with any other console-manufacturer who goes with disc-based model with resale.

Many of the examples you provided only work for on PC markets, where used games don't exist, and haven't for a long time. Demos on console are rarely provided, and free trials are NEVER provided, meaning you have to get a used game to know if you really like a game.

Example: I bought Bulletstorm used recently, beat in 4 days, got bored, and returned it to pre-order a different game. I would have been stuck with a game I got bored of had I been forced to buy new exclusively.

As far as price hikes go, why do you think almost every large developer releases new games at $60?

Hypothetical: Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 4 releases at $60. Battlefield 4 sees this, and releases at $50 to boost sales. While it is effective, by undercutting their competitor, they soured business relations between their subsidiaries, and CoD's subsidiaries. This may mean that Activision stops working with DICE on a different project. Perhaps Activision stops allowing their games to be purchased on Origin. Prices stay the same for COMPETITIVE BALANCE.

Finally, prices drops won't happen because the outlets you suggested average a retail price of about $10-$15. AAA titles won't drop in price by more than $5 if they go digital only, because as I said before, the share-holders (the most important people to a company) saw that people would buy at that price, and will continue to insist on that price, because it works, and maximizes profit.

Funny, I've got a metre-square sized box full of pre-owned PC games right up to 2008... the time when Steam really took over and started giving us those amazing sales.

There is no reason that consoles couldn't follow the PC model of trials. There might be a lack of these alternatives precisely BECAUSE OF the burgeoning pre-owned market. There was a time when people said online multiplayer would never work on consoles, but now look at CoD's multiplayer dominance on consoles.

Example: I bought downloaded the of Bulletstorm used demo recently, got bored, and returned it to pre-order a different game decided not to buy the game. I would have been stuck with a game I got bored of had I been forced to buy new exclusively.

PS: if you play a game for FOUR DAYS, it is clearly not THAT boring.

"soured business relations between their subsidiaries"

Welcome to capitalism.

"AAA titles won't drop in price by more than $5"

I got Resident Evil 5 for £13 on Steam, just 6 months after launch. That's well under a THIRD of the retail price of the console release at the time.

Right NOW The Darkness II is only £22.49, HALF the console retail price. Kingdoms of Amalur is £29.99, that's £10-15 lower than console retail, that's $16-24 lower price.

You are making an argument from ignorance.

"share-holders (the most important people to a company) saw that people would buy at that price"

Nope. The people are not one homogeneous mass that all simultaneously and unanimously make the same decision. They saw MORE OF the people would buy at a LOWER price. So MANY MORE that the shareholders earned more revenue selling at a lower price. Remember, to make extra copies costs virtually nothing, the problem is getting everyone who wants it to ACTUALLY buy it. It's quite clear that a huge proportion are NOT buying at that price, you admitted as much when you bought Bulletstorm used at likely a lower price and then sold it on AGAIN. You played it for 4 days, that's not worthless.

This doesn't apply to EVERY software. Not many people actually want Photoshop, so you can saturate the market that lowering the price won't sell to any more people to justify the price cut.

But games have MASS APPEAL, to tens (even hundreds) of MILLIONS of people. 25% off = double the sales = 50% more revenue.

"As far as price hikes go, why do you think almost every large developer releases new games at $60?"

On PC they DON'T which suggest this is enforced by console-manufacturer's terms of licencing. PC games price varies continuously from $2.00 to $80.00 with games like Serious Sam 3 and Rayman Origins going for $40.

 

[Treblaine]

If you console gamers won't accept this digital-future then fine. Go on living in the dark ages, PC gaming and other markets like iOS will only get better and better soon you'll be left in the dust wondering where it all went wrong.

EDIT: this isn't PC fanboyism. Apple iOS and Android are not PC.

 

[Treblaine]

If you console gamers won't accept this digital-future then fine. Go on living in the dark ages, PC gaming and other markets like iOS will only get better and better soon you'll be left in the dust wondering where it all went wrong.

Careful, that PC fanboyism is gonna start leaking out your nose soon...

Not everyone has a perfect internet connection. In fact, a lot of people have really really bad ones. My wireless connection on my PS3 averages about 45%. My friend's internet connection to his PC dies every hour or so, and has to be restarted. We both live in a major metropolitan area.

When I downloaded Infamous 2 to my PS3, it took 4 days. A 2 mile walk to my mall, getting the game from GameStop, and walking home, would take about 45 minutes. That's hardly convenience.

As long as crappy internet connections exist, and as long as a gaming computer you have to upgrade every 2 years, fight with to get to work some programs at all, and juggle disk space for a decent library, console gaming will stick around. Deal with it.

Not PC fanboyism. Merely progressive. iOS is nothing to do with PC and actively tries not to be. XBLA games are in this category too, also not PC. It's about progress. Also, you have no right to accuse PC fanboyism when you use such a repeatedly discredited fallacy as this:
"and as long as a gaming computer you have to upgrade every 2 years"

"My wireless connection on my PS3 averages about 45%."

That's meaningless. 45% of WHAT?! That doesn't give any predictive or indicative ability. 45% may give all the bitrate needed.

"When I downloaded Infamous 2 to my PS3, it took 4 days."

I had the same problem. Yet I downloaded Modern Warfare 3 in 3 hours via Steam on the same router. The problem is with PSN being a bag of bollocks.

If you can stream a 720p youtube video without much buffering then you can download a 10GB game in similar time to travelling down to the shops, buy a game, then return home. Internet connection speeds are getting better all the time and they WILL get better with demand. We don't want to live in AOL's vision of the internet with always the same speeds and always the same exploitative price.

I have no doubt console gaming will stick around... if it moves with the times and embraces digital download. The users may desperately try to hold back this progress and ignore the advantages of going 100% download but they are diging themselves into a hole.

 

[Something Amyss]

The problem is with PSN being a bag of bollocks.

I think that was actually their slogan for a while.

 

[spartan231490]

It is just a rumor as of this moment. If Microsoft didn't do used games, and Sony did, the PS4 would win the next console generation on day one. Regardless of what you personally think about GameStop (or Amazon, or Ebay, or Craigslist, apparently), so many people buy used games that not being able to would cripple Microsoft.

This. I know that if 720 doesn't have a disc drive, I won't be buying it. It can cost $20 dollars, clean my room, and give me hand-jobs, to complete remove disc functionality is so much of an insult I still wouldn't buy it.

 

[Treblaine]

If you console gamers won't accept this digital-future then fine. Go on living in the dark ages, PC gaming and other markets like iOS will only get better and better soon you'll be left in the dust wondering where it all went wrong.

Oh look, someone who's still in 1980. This same argument was used then, no prizes for guessing how accurate it was.

What's so special about 1980? Before years the NES or even Windows PC? How is that relevant to ANYTHING?!?!

"This same argument was used then"

News flash: the year is 2012... not 1980. And the same argument wasn't even made back then, how could there be an argument for internet-distribution BEFORE THE INTERNET!!! You don't know what you are talking about.

PS: I won't hear BS about Arpanet's date, The Internet was not remotely commercialised till the 1990's.

 

[Woodsey]

We do all know the definition of the word "rumour", don't we? Yes? Good, just checking.

If the 360's successor comes without physical media capabilities I will eat my own fucking face.

If you console gamers won't accept this digital-future then fine. Go on living in the dark ages, PC gaming and other markets like iOS will only get better and better soon you'll be left in the dust wondering where it all went wrong.

EDIT: this isn't PC fanboyism. Apple iOS and Android are not PC.

I don't think there's much doubt in many people's minds about where the future is heading. The concern for many people is that they're simply not equipped for it yet. For a very large proportion of people, digital-distribution is, practically-speaking, not a viable option.

 

[Meight08]

Okay, developers. Look. We have used markets for music, books, cars, pretty much everything you can think of. Why the hell do you think games should be exempt from that?[/quote


Because those industries have secondary sources of incomes
Music:concerts.
Books:laughably low poduction costs.
Carsbviously better new and comes with free service often.
Movies: dvd's reruns on tv

I don't believe this industry profiting in the billions is going to fall apart from used game sales .

Its not the industry at large but individual games that suffer.
Every other industry has back-up plans.
But we do not and because it is a data based system stopping wear and tear making new purchases the best product.
And movies and concerts have secondary income sources keeping them afloat.
movies have: Dvd's (example scott pilgrim vs the world flopped at the box office but the dvd made the money back
Cd's:concerts
Games:nothing so untill games have a secondary source of income we will see new ip's dieing very early because of everybody buying it used and thinking "what harm will i do?"

Game developers have been going out of business since the 1980s and all we do is play the world's smallest violin. Are there any honestly good games that don't sell well these days? Logic dictates that not everyone will be able to find the game used. There are also some people that prefer to buy new. Hey, genius, a shit-ton more people buy cars used than new. Car companies could put a stop to the used car market to give them more profits, but they don't because they're NOT assholes!

Oooh you think your butthurt makes you sound edgy dont you?!
1:big retail chains only sell used games after a week and just enough new games so they can be traded in again this causes lost sales because people cant buy new.
2:"Are there any honestly good games that don't sell well these days?"
Rayman origins sold only 50:000.
Okami sold like crap.
Psychonauts sold like crap.
Need i to say more?
3:car companies don't stop used cars because
3.1:they sell manufacture new parts.
3.2:They got specialized garages for their cars.
3.3:New cars are better than used cars even with things like free repairs.
3.4:If a new car is sold it made up it's production cost requiring no more sales to make the money back.

Used games are hurting our industry because of bloated retail giants like gamestop.
With store exclusive dlc,fixed,prices,online passes. This is all the fault of gamestop and if used games have to die to make gamestop die i have no problem with that.

 

[Meight08]

What's so special about 1980? Before years the NES or even Windows PC? How is that relevant to ANYTHING?!?!

"This same argument was used then"

News flash: the year is 2012... not 1980. And the same argument wasn't even made back then, how could there be an argument for internet-distribution BEFORE THE INTERNET!!! You don't know what you are talking about.

PS: I won't hear BS about Arpanet's date, The Internet was not remotely commercialised till the 1990's.

Calm the Hell down! What was so big about 1980? Around that time, personal computers were being released. Game developers were a bit worried because some theorized that PCs would take over the game industry. Thus resulted in some really stupid console-computer hybrids. Different technology, same argument.

Actually, I'm wrong, this argument is even less valid. Consoles already take advantage of the internet. ALL OF THEM! I think they are going to be able to handle the internet, considering they already are.

Oooh you think your butthurt makes you sound edgy dont you?!
1:big retail chains only sell used games after a week and just enough new games so they can be traded in again this causes lost sales because people cant buy new.
2:"Are there any honestly good games that don't sell well these days?"
Rayman origins sold only 50:000.
Okami sold like crap.
Psychonauts sold like crap.
Need i to say more?
3:car companies don't stop used cars because
3.1:they sell manufacture new parts.
3.2:They got specialized garages for their cars.
3.3:New cars are better than used cars even with things like free repairs.
3.4:If a new car is sold it made up it's production cost requiring no more sales to make the money back.

Used games are hurting our industry because of bloated retail giants like gamestop.
With store exclusive dlc,fixed,prices,online passes. This is all the fault of gamestop and if used games have to die to make gamestop die i have no problem with that.

1: I can never find used titles of top selling games at Gamestop.
2: Fare enough.
3: They still would make more money if they put an end to used car sales, and with less effort. The reason they don't is because it would be a dick move.

Here is the reason this is a dick move. I buy used games only if a) I can't find a new copy anywhere or b) money is tight. They want to punish me for the crime of being poor. This will not stop asshats who just don't care, because they'll just buy pirated games.

Ooh...wait. I just got an idea. How about, to increase incentive to buy new, they put special DLC that you can only get if you buy new. Like...allowing you to play as Catwoman in a Batman game...or use a special weapon in Mass Effect...or use classic Mortal Kombat characters. Ah, but such things only exist in the realm of dreams.

The publishers dont care about the used games on ebay they care about big retail chains like gamestop who make more money than the ACTUAL developers and publishers combined by trading used games
They give you like 30 dollars but you can only use 20 if you buy a new copy.
This keeps you buying used because it is a better deal and this stops new money from entering circulation.
When a store runs out of copies they used to buy new stock but if a store uses used copies to refill its stock there will be no more need to buy new copies And that is a shitty business tactic These business practices are not good.
Gamestop is biting the hand that feeds it and that is bad.

Again car companies dont need to stop used cars to make money game developers do.

 

[Treblaine]

We do all know the definition of the word "rumour", don't we? Yes? Good, just checking.

If the 360's successor comes without physical media capabilities I will eat my own fucking face.

If you console gamers won't accept this digital-future then fine. Go on living in the dark ages, PC gaming and other markets like iOS will only get better and better soon you'll be left in the dust wondering where it all went wrong.

EDIT: this isn't PC fanboyism. Apple iOS and Android are not PC.

I don't think there's much doubt in many people's minds about where the future is heading. The concern for many people is that they're simply not equipped for it yet. For a very large proportion of people, digital-distribution is, practically-speaking, not a viable option.

Well many people can't afford $60-70 per game and a huge part of game price IS from the retail mark up inherent with selling discs wholesale and then again via stores. Direct sale can have huge money savings.

Even if you are on a mere 3 megabits-per-second download rate, that's 1.32GB an hour... that's 10GB overnight. And it's possible to pre-load games before release. And 10GB is a rather high estimate, Crysis download size is less than 6GB.

 

[Woodsey]

We do all know the definition of the word "rumour", don't we? Yes? Good, just checking.

If the 360's successor comes without physical media capabilities I will eat my own fucking face.

If you console gamers won't accept this digital-future then fine. Go on living in the dark ages, PC gaming and other markets like iOS will only get better and better soon you'll be left in the dust wondering where it all went wrong.

EDIT: this isn't PC fanboyism. Apple iOS and Android are not PC.

I don't think there's much doubt in many people's minds about where the future is heading. The concern for many people is that they're simply not equipped for it yet. For a very large proportion of people, digital-distribution is, practically-speaking, not a viable option.

Well many people can't afford $60-70 per game and a huge part of game price IS from the retail mark up inherent with selling discs wholesale and then again via stores. Direct sale can have huge money savings.

Even if you are on a mere 3 megabits-per-second download rate, that's 1.32GB an hour... that's 10GB overnight. And it's possible to pre-load games before release. And 10GB is a rather high estimate, Crysis download size is less than 6GB.

There's a fairly sizeable chunk of the US which has virtually no connectivity. There are some pockets in the UK which are much the same. Download caps are common practice in Australia (and Canada if I'm not mistaken). Speed is just one issue.

Evidently, both of us are lucky to not have any of the above issues, and so are plenty of other people, but many people aren't.

For the time being, digital-only is simply not viable.

 

[Doclector]

First off, this article is over a month old.
And secondly, it doesn't mention anything about no disk drive.
And thirdly, EVERYTHING SO FAR IS JUST RUMORS.

Exactly. Hell, if I remember rightly, somebody from microsoft said that the next console isn't coming for a while anyway, if I had to guess, they're probably just planning it now, and guessing from the backlash both now and when the 360's poor backwards compatibility was revealed, I should think if they had some plans like that, they probably don't have them anymore.

 

[Treblaine]

We do all know the definition of the word "rumour", don't we? Yes? Good, just checking.

If the 360's successor comes without physical media capabilities I will eat my own fucking face.

If you console gamers won't accept this digital-future then fine. Go on living in the dark ages, PC gaming and other markets like iOS will only get better and better soon you'll be left in the dust wondering where it all went wrong.

EDIT: this isn't PC fanboyism. Apple iOS and Android are not PC.

I don't think there's much doubt in many people's minds about where the future is heading. The concern for many people is that they're simply not equipped for it yet. For a very large proportion of people, digital-distribution is, practically-speaking, not a viable option.

Well many people can't afford $60-70 per game and a huge part of game price IS from the retail mark up inherent with selling discs wholesale and then again via stores. Direct sale can have huge money savings.

Even if you are on a mere 3 megabits-per-second download rate, that's 1.32GB an hour... that's 10GB overnight. And it's possible to pre-load games before release. And 10GB is a rather high estimate, Crysis download size is less than 6GB.

There's a fairly sizeable chunk of the US which has virtually no connectivity. There are some pockets in the UK which are much the same. Download caps are common practice in Australia (and Canada if I'm not mistaken). Speed is just one issue.

Evidently, both of us are lucky to not have any of the above issues, and so are plenty of other people, but many people aren't.

For the time being, digital-only is simply not viable.

Yeah, I've heard this many times but never some actual data on this "no connectivity". Especially whether these areas have any access to nearby games stores. I'm quite sure the Alaskan mountain ranges have poor internet access, but I doubt you'd even find a gamestop store within several hours drive either. If they have no-connectivity they have more problems than no downloads, so many games only have ANY worth from the online multiplayer.

I don't think it's very relevant to look at all the homes with pensioners who don't want and never asked for anything more than dialup. Or the remote holiday cottages and agricultural areas. The thing is you can very easily buy a game online and take your console to a place with fast internet, and plug it in there to download.

I download games that I PLAY. I don't download even 20GB of games every month, the cap of games is insignificant compared to other pressures like media streaming, youtube, BBC iplayer, netflix, etc.