You All Depress Me: Something We Need To Acknowledge.
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Ever have a time where you disagreed with someone, but didn't really want to argue the point.Johnny Novgorod said:
Ya it was stupid, but not particularly stupid. More just normal sexystupid. I have certainly seen worse. I read tumblers showing worse. (It's a form of catharsis) Heck just this week, I looked at a new game and found worse. (Gamed looked neat though. It's a little disappointing to see bad designs attached to a good concept.) The only thing out of the normal about that design is that it was on a man.
Its an analogy. DoA Beach is to Bayonetta what porn is to porn with a plot. I know there's no actual intercourse in either of the games. Its an analogy.Alma Mare said:
Odd analogy, but I think your may be looking at the wrong part. Bayonetta doesn't get a pass because it has a plot. It's not that she fights monsters because you know we have done that before. It's more in the way she is sexy. (I don't think I could really go into detail on this topic though.)Silentpony said:
This quote is an absolute misrepresentation of what's going on.LifeCharacter said:
The reason why people say what feminists are doing is censorship is not because they exclusively care about representations of female characters getting altered, but because of the tactics being used to try and force people to change things, rather than simply giving criticism.
Was there a twitter mob calling the makers of FF all sorts of reprehensible things over this outfit? Were there calls for boycott? Did people paint the entire game as a piece of hate propaganda because of this outfit? Did they drag the reputation of the company through the mud over this outfit? Did the artists for the game get accused of hating all men because of this outfit?
Content creators can change things based on the feedback they receive. That is not censorship, that's simply taking the criticism you receive and deciding that you agree with it or that you want to serve your audience.
When people are being pressured into making changes against their will it's an entirely different story though. When they are being all out attacked and slandered for not altering something just because a few people take offense to it then it becomes an attempt at censoring them. Square Enix wasn't pressured or coerced into making these changes, they just listened to what people thought of the character.
That's the important difference that's being completely ignored here.
There is no hypocrisy here, because the problem people have with the changes to PoE or the comic covers was that they were made in response to coercion, slander and bullying, not in response to simple feedback.
See that's just where I disagree. How her writers have chosen to portray her is still shamelessly sexual. Not personally confident, but shameless.nomotog said:
Tell me the difference between these pictures, apart from the named character. 'cause I find I'm having a hard time telling which is blatantly sexual and which is OMG so empowering!
Or these ones
Or even these!
Jim Sterling says it best: you're not satire if you're just being what you're supposed to be a satire of.
The fact of the matter is that people have differing opinions on things. Holding an entire community to a specific standard of behavior is utterly useless, because we can't all just hold one huge meeting and all agree on our common bugaboos.
Consider how the last few years put political correctness up-front and center. Consider how dredging up old jokes from a nineties' screwball comedy is equalled to transphobia. Nowadays, we all act as though we have the sovereign right to have our opinions held sacred by absolutely everyone else, but the fact is that makes no sense.
With that in mind, OP, try and think of this as an example of people being people. We'll simultaneously decry skimpy outfit designs and clamor for more, or shamelessly land transphobic or homophobic jokes between friends while also jumping off the handle at the first sign of anything that might vaguely upset our friends in the LGBTQ and Trans communities.
If you're still thinking that we could transcend these facts and somehow come to some sort of consensus, well, I've got some bad news for you.
We aren't Legion. We aren't the Geth. It'd be best for your own nerves and general faith in Mankind if you came to accept this.
Consider how the last few years put political correctness up-front and center. Consider how dredging up old jokes from a nineties' screwball comedy is equalled to transphobia. Nowadays, we all act as though we have the sovereign right to have our opinions held sacred by absolutely everyone else, but the fact is that makes no sense.
With that in mind, OP, try and think of this as an example of people being people. We'll simultaneously decry skimpy outfit designs and clamor for more, or shamelessly land transphobic or homophobic jokes between friends while also jumping off the handle at the first sign of anything that might vaguely upset our friends in the LGBTQ and Trans communities.
If you're still thinking that we could transcend these facts and somehow come to some sort of consensus, well, I've got some bad news for you.
We aren't Legion. We aren't the Geth. It'd be best for your own nerves and general faith in Mankind if you came to accept this.
Angelblaze said:
The vast majority in the FF thread are either decrying the change or are in favor of 'sensible' clothing for both male and female characters, so I really don't get what you're talking about here.
By the way I'm one of those mysoginerdic gobble gator terrorist and I am firmly against the change. So was most of kotakuinaction and so were a lot of 8channers.
Silentpony said:
I don't know if I am the best one to argue this because I a more or less on the fence with the character. It's safe on the fence. No one yells at you on the fence. I should stay on the fence.Silentpony said:See that's just where I disagree. How her writers have chosen to portray her is still shamelessly sexual. Not personally confident, but shameless.nomotog said:
Tell me the difference between these pictures, apart from the named character. 'cause I find I'm having a hard time telling which is blatantly sexual and which is OMG so empowering!
Or these ones
Or even these!
Jim Sterling says it best: you're not satire if you're just being what you're supposed to be a satire of.
Though I guess one big difference between the pictures is bayonetta is attacking in them. Though taking out of context pictures might not be the best way to compare two things. Bayonetta is more then just figures or still frames. They are a character, you know they do stuff. I don't think bayonetta is meant to be satire. Silly maybe, but not satire. I think she is meant to be sexy, it's just you know she is sexy in a different way then most.
Well what do you expect from gamers then? Omniscience?Angelblaze said:
You cannot give a fuck about stuff you never even heard about. Nobody has to give a fuck in the first place.
Still, I bet if you did a poll, plenty members here would remain pretty consistent: a company can ship out any kind of fictional crap it wants, without outside interference, as long as it isn't being advertised too falsely and then gamers are free to call the game shit and not buy it.
There is a huge difference between saying "Hey, I don't like this" and leaving it up to the creators to take that criticism into account or not, and saying "Hey, I don't like this, you have to change it or I will accuse you of every heinous thing under the sun."LifeCharacter said:
But sure, if you completely ignore the difference between the two you can convince yourself that people who don't are guilty of some kind of hypocrisy.
It's there for everyone to read on twitter and other social media sites. Anyone can head there right now and look at the amount of abuse the devs for PoE got and the devs for FF got, and hey, guess what, there is a difference.LifeCharacter said:
I'm not here to convince you, since evidence obviously doesn't matter to you, but anyone who actually does care about reality can go see who's in the right here.
Don't let the click bait sensationalist thread titles,
Sure it's an attack on free speech, a Twitter user pretty much threatened to get all her Twitter friends and their twitter friends to all complain at the same time causing the game to be known for that shit all the Twitter users complained about, a fate worse then death it seems.
Or was something actually changed? I'm not sure, I don't give a crap about comic books so I never looked into it (same with the FF link you posted earlier).
Well yeah, it was a stupid reason for removing the quote, but no one wants a bunch of armchair protestors going viral so I can see why they caved to the heat.Angelblaze said:
Sure it's an attack on free speech, a Twitter user pretty much threatened to get all her Twitter friends and their twitter friends to all complain at the same time causing the game to be known for that shit all the Twitter users complained about, a fate worse then death it seems.
Was this an attack on free speech? I thought it was just a bunch of people wondering why people would complain about a comic book cover, in this case it's not like the complainers had any power.
Or was something actually changed? I'm not sure, I don't give a crap about comic books so I never looked into it (same with the FF link you posted earlier).
No one gave a "fuck" because it's a Japanese only mobile game where the changes were announced during a Japanese only press event.
Let's turn this the other way, now that they changed the way a guy looked you were upset enough to make a thread about it and call everyone hypocrites, but had this been a story about a female you wouldn't care.
i don't know about you but iv'e never heard of the final fantasy thing
and i wouldn't equate two instances of finished media being removed because of people whining about it too the design of a character in a in development game being tweaked after user feedback.
and i wouldn't equate two instances of finished media being removed because of people whining about it too the design of a character in a in development game being tweaked after user feedback.
Just like people who already agree with you are supposed to simply believe that I made up the existence of a huge twitter shitstorm directed at the PoE devs because it doesn't fit with your story?LifeCharacter said:
Look, bottom line is, nobody called out FF for being transphobic or misogynist or promoting the murder of trans people or anything like that. Nobody called for the costume to be changed or removed by accusing it of doing harm to people, they just changed it because people said they didn't like it.
I know that's an analogy. An incredibly awkward one. My point still stands. I look at the images comparison you pulled up later in the thread and I'm still convinced you haven't got a clue on what's happening in a Bayonetta game.Silentpony said:
The girls in Dead or Alive are rendered that way for 2 reasons: Aesthetics and titilation. They are meant to look good and draw in horny teens.
The characters in Bayonetta (including Jeanne and other assorted witches) are rendered that way not to look good (they actually look something between bland and creepy) but to convey their relationship with the world they live in. Namely, how little of a fuck they give about it.
You won't find a scene where Bayonetta is trying to look sexy so that the player can hold the controller with one hand and his boner with the other. If you find wanking material in Bayo, you might want to seek counsil. Everytime the characters do something sexy, it's never for the benefit of any character or the player, it is justaposed with events that show how little they care or feel threatened. Bayo will lay on her side and arch her legs while ripping a colossus to bits with her hair. She'll interrupt the execution of a Cardinal Virtue who has been hyped as a boss for 3 acts in order to divebomb from the stratosphere and grab her lollypop so she can suck on it. While resuming the murder. The wet-in-the-car-seat scene? She's clearly less interested in seducing Luka and instead in messing with his head for the sake of it. In fact, she's never attempting to seduce or ingrace herself with anyone. Everytime she does it, it's clearly to assert her dominance and indiference.
So, the difference between your images? Agency and context. And that's quite the difference.
As for the original topic: If I understand correctly, the changes in FF were made by the developers while in development, prompted by user feedback they either allowed or requested. The changes in PoE where(would be?) were the demands of a minority of overdramatic manginas. I don't have any issues with the former.