You Can't Be the Hero If You're the Rapist

[Valentine82]

It should have dawned on me earlier, for a lot of you defending RapeLay, it's not about defending free speech or RapeLay, it's about defending your Rape Fantasy fetish. I'm sure there are some for whom it actually is a free speech issue, but I think any of you with the fetish are simply fooling yourselves into thinking of it as a free speech issue because on some level you perceive attacks on RapeLay as an attack on your lifestyle.

So let me make it clear, my problem is NOT with people who have the Rape Fantasy fetish having interactive pornography tailored to them. My problem is that people who do not have the Rape Fantasy fetish and instead view women as objects will still use this game as interactive porn, and these people are actually dangerous.

Actual rapist out number those of you with the fetish by far, and it's a bad idea to give people with a predisposition towards rape a porno like RapeLay. It's a bad idea for the same reason it would be a bad idea to give someone with a predisposition towards pedophilia a game in which they stalk and molest children. Women should not have to live in the shadow of fear so that the few of you with the fetish for Rape Fantasy can get off.

How does that differ from my concern as a son for the safety of my mother?

Maybe you don't have a good relationship with your mother, but would be biologically predisposed to care more about your offspring.

 

[Valentine82]

Its a bad idea to allow censorship.
It encourages a way of looking at anything as potentially dangerous or offensive to the point that our culture is stripped bare of all merit. It encourages people to lay blame on videogames, t.v. and other forms of media like it wasn't their fault. By blaming the media you are absolving the perpetrators.

While I'd be prone to agree with everything you said because I'd prefer to, there are situations in which censorship is both reasonable and necessary.

I have a female friend with a kid who finds the censorship way more offensive than the game. She was a rape victim and still she finds the censorship more offensive. She thinks those that want to censor this crap should find something better to do with their lives. Does she have a right to her opinion? I think so.

And would she feel that way if the title in question were a pedophilia simulator and she lived in a neighborhood with twelve registered pedophiles? You say that she was a rape victim, what does she know about RapeLay? Is it possible that you're just telling me what she would think instead of asking her?

What about my friend with 2 daughters who still finds the censorship more offensive? If the people around you were brought up right, no media would sway them to rape.

If she has such a problem with censorship I'm sure I could think of a few things that would change her mind, just give me some art supplies and access to the lot across from her front door and let her children get an eyeful of some of my paintings every morning on their way to school. No county would allow it, and I wouldn't blame them.

Need an example of a more private medium of free expression that would be censored? I'd be amused to see someone try and write a book in which the protagonist is a glorified white supremacist who assassinates Obama, I would hope that kind of book would be banned and I'm sure it would be. If not, drop it into the hands of white supremicist hate groups and let it sit for awhile. The words of the Fascist started out as nothing but free speech, but as we learned with Germany words and ideas give way to action.

Anyone else reminded of when William Gaines (founder of Mad) had his True Crime comics and they were censored because they might instigate foul play? They were called obscene and thought to be a cause of crime - yet years later we look back at that censorship with shame. Those ranting about this game remind me of the freaked out housewives who didn't have a clue what was really going on in their kids lives and just wanted to blame a comic. Society is the one to pay for the stupid crap these censor-happy fools pull. If you or anyone you know are in an area where you have to worry about rape regularly you need to leave or fight it. A videogame is not causing you to be in danger, the rapists are. Don't excuse their actions by blaming a game.

The problem with RapeLay is that it dehumanizes women (half the world's population) and turns rape into an acceptable masturbatory aid, and THAT does put women in danger.

 

[Phototoxin]

So let me make it clear, my problem is NOT with people who have the Rape Fantasy fetish having interactive pornography tailored to them. My problem is that people who do not have the Rape Fantasy fetish and instead view women as objects will still use this game as interactive porn, and these people are actually dangerous.

Have you a single unbiased peer reviewed piece of evidence to suggest that these people are dangerous? Why aren't people who play GTA 'dangerous' in the same light? both are crimes. Murder is worse than Rape/Torture.

Actual rapist out number those of you with the fetish by far, and it's a bad idea to give people with a predisposition towards rape a porno like RapeLay. It's a bad idea for the same reason it would be a bad idea to give someone with a predisposition towards pedophilia a game in which they stalk and molest children. Women should not have to live in the shadow of fear so that the few of you with the fetish for Rape Fantasy can get off.

Again the evidence would suggest otherwise. In the last 20 years access to pornography has increased, violent sexual crime has decreased (in the UK at least) In japan, a country with a heck of a lot of access to highly dodgy porn (also RapeLay made in Japan ;-) ) has a very low serious crime rate including sexual crimes.

Some men will view women as sex objects irregardless and also many women project themselves as objects of sexual desire irregardless. Not all men and not all women but some. Blaming men alone would be highly hypocritical. There are many things in society which reinforce these actions but blaming things on a computer game which was probably made as a result of such views is not a good solution.

 

[Valentine82]

Have you a single unbiased peer reviewed piece of evidence to suggest that these people are dangerous?

You mean people genetically predisposed to Rape?

Why aren't people who play GTA 'dangerous' in the same light? both are crimes.

Our drive towards violence and our drive towards sexual activity function differently, I've already covered this issue.

Murder is worse than Rape/Torture.

No, it's not. That's entirely subjective but many women would prefer the former to the latter. I would. And by the way, I'm sure I could think of tortures that would leave you begging for death, maybe a few months with a spinal colum full of thorezine inducing full tactile hallucinations would change your mind.

Actual rapist out number those of you with the fetish by far, and it's a bad idea to give people with a predisposition towards rape a porno like RapeLay. It's a bad idea for the same reason it would be a bad idea to give someone with a predisposition towards pedophilia a game in which they stalk and molest children. Women should not have to live in the shadow of fear so that the few of you with the fetish for Rape Fantasy can get off.

Again the evidence would suggest otherwise. In the last 20 years access to pornography has increased, violent sexual crime has decreased (in the UK at least)

Sorry, but the reason violent sexual crimes have decreased isn't because of pronographic access. That's a moot point however because I am not arguing against pornographic access, nor am I arguing that porn leads to violence. The problem with RapeLay is that it dehumanizes women and turns their rape into a masturbatory aid.

In japan, a country with a heck of a lot of access to highly dodgy porn (also RapeLay made in Japan ;-) ) has a very low serious crime rate including sexual crimes.

Factually incorrect. The number of women groped and assaulted in Japan is stageringly high, I cited a couple of links in a previous post that may interest you.

Some men will view women as sex objects irregardless and also many women project themselves as objects of sexual desire irregardless. Not all men and not all women but some. Blaming men alone would be highly hypocritical.

I do consider sluts to be the worst enemy of gender equality, but when a man commits rape don't blame the victim. No means No.

There are many things in society which reinforce these actions but blaming things on a computer game which was probably made as a result of such views is not a good solution.

RapeLay simply represents a larger trend. My concern isn't RapeLay itself, though I will fight tooth and nail to keep it from ever being sold in my community. My problem is with a growing trend towards displays of sexual violence against women in the gaming industry, and women's groups spanning the spectrum all the way from grrrlgamer to Equality Now have my full support on this issue.

 

[AngloDoom]

To recycle the words I used during the last time this was raised;

"I know it's fun for half the people on this forum to take the "I'm cool, alternative, against the general opinion, and Yahtzee rolled in one!" route to express their 'individuality', but if anyone can make a convincing argument to why games whose sole purpose is to show women, or young girls, being raped to allow the person to wank themselves into contentment is the right thing to do, then perhaps I'll be more open to the subject."

Then my counterargument is how you're supposed to discern rape "as part of gameplay" vs rape "as goal" i.e. the difference between killing enemies in Half Life vs Manhunt. Furthermore, you weaseled yourself out of stating a definitive stance on your own opinion on whether murder is correct when it's the only goal.

So what is it? Should murder simulators be banned too? If so where do we draw the line for that?

Wow, third time the forum error'd when I tried to type my reply. Excuse me if it's rushed; I'm tired.

Anyway, I didn't mean to weasel out of any argument there; just something I skipped over without thinking. Thanks for pointing it out anyway, I don't want to walk away after only giving half an opinion.

Okay, not as refined as my last post *grumble*, so I'll just cut to the chase in this one.


I've never encountered a game in which the player takes a person, ties them up, and controls every action of pain they inflict upon that person. That is to say, you never get torture simulators, where you are given a large amount of tools to use on a character who is unable to resist, and you take pleasure in causing them hurt and pain; you hear them cry and see them squirm as you put them through simulated agony for amusement. This is how RapleLay is different from your example of, say, Half-Life.

In Half-Life, you are given nameless, faceless 'Baddies' to take down. They are obstacles to your goal. You press a button, a gun flashes, they sometimes go "ARGH" and other times they go "ARGH" and limp, but most of the time they just slump to the ground. You don't control Freeman as he runs in close, ties them up, and use the cursor to slowly jam bamboo up their fingernails while beating them with a flail. The enemies are nuisances that stay in your way until you explode, shoot, or crowbar them.

Murder in games is fine, it's been fine for ages. We love to have epic fights and battles to the death, we always have, that's why we had arena's full of gladiators and that's why a lot of people would support that nowadays so long as everyone was consenting. Hell, even rape in games is fine if it is used for an objective; you show how evil Baddy X is by showing him (without being graphic for the sake of perversion) rape someone, or just sometimes imply he does through camera, speech, whatever. That's fine, rape is such a universal 'no-no' that it is a great way of making you hate a character. It's been used in games before, no-doubt, but if you were to control these sequences, to watch each action take place, to painfully rape a character, to hear their screams and protests, and watch the tears roll down their eyes, then I'd be against it.

The difference is that one is used as an objective, or road to an objective. The other is celebrating the suffering of a character. Yes, I know, it's virtual and it is causing no harm to that big ol' lump of programming, but why does it even need to be there?

Anyway, I'm tired and I'm going to leave this topic to rest now. I've said my view, others have said theirs, and its obvious at this point that neither side is going to 'convert' the other to their way of thinking, and after a while internet-arguments start to look somewhat childish.

All I aimed to do was to express my opinion on the subject, so I apologise if I at all angered you with my view - all I intended was to express my view.

That's my opinion.

 

[Phototoxin]

[/quote]You mean people genetically predisposed to Rape?[/quote]

No I'm saying how do you know these people are dangerous. Actual studies suggest that most people despite whatever fantasies they have won't act them out. Its a small minority or a small minority.

No, it's not. That's entirely subjective but many women would prefer the former to the latter. I would. And by the way, I'm sure I could think of tortures that would leave you begging for death, maybe a few months with a spinal colum full of thorezine inducing full tactile hallucinations would change your mind.

You don't know that ;-) . Also I would most probably react adversely to Chlorpromazine and so I'd be dead anyway. So you'd end up murdering me not torturing me.

Sorry, but the reason violent sexual crimes have decreased isn't because of pronographic access. That's a moot point however because I am not arguing against pornographic access, nor am I arguing that porn leads to violence. The problem with RapeLay is that it dehumanizes women and turns their rape into a masturbatory aid.

I'm not saying that its the reason but its a link that should be explored.

I do consider sluts to be the worst enemy of gender equality, but when a man commits rape don't blame the victim. No means No.

except in the case of the lisbon treaty!

RapeLay simply represents a larger trend. My concern isn't RapeLay itself, though I will fight tooth and nail to keep it from ever being sold in my community. My problem is with a growing trend towards displays of sexual violence against women in the gaming industry, and women's groups spanning the spectrum all the way from grrrlgamer to Equality Now have my full support on this issue.

yet no one was up in arms about Fear Effect 2 which not only had no swearing, lesbianism and a bikini clad woman stuck on a large insectoid sex machine as well as bloody gore and violence but it also had no age rating so technically 12 year olds should have been able to play it!

Also in terms of a 'growing display of voilence towards women' last time I checked in most games the soldiers/nazis/zombies/whatever that you killed were generally male. I see your concern but rather than trying to just get one game banned you really have to try to change a mentality. I don't understand your notion of a growing trend. Perhaps I am not playing the correct games but when I was a kid I could kick the living bejesus out of a female thug in streets of rage on the sega. The fact that I could play as a judo trained woman more leads me to treat women as equals rather than exploitive objects myself.

(also just to clarify I'm not advocating rapelay or other similar games either I'd rather they didn't exist personally)

Murder in games is fine, it's been fine for ages. We love to have epic fights and battles to the death, we always have, that's why we had arena's full of gladiators and that's why a lot of people would support that nowadays so long as everyone was consenting. Hell, even rape in games is fine if it is used for an objective; you show how evil Baddy X is by showing him (without being graphic for the sake of perversion) rape someone, or just sometimes imply he does through camera, speech, whatever. That's fine, rape is such a universal 'no-no' that it is a great way of making you hate a character. It's been used in games before, no-doubt, but if you were to control these sequences, to watch each action take place, to painfully rape a character, to hear their screams and protests, and watch the tears roll down their eyes, then I'd be against it.

Why? Why are you against something which leaves a person alive and able to cry as opposed to something whcih is aguably less painful but will have permanently deprived them of life? Rape is horrifically terrible, i hope I get promoted in my job so I can help catch such people but at the same time murder is worse. Rape victims are alive and have a life with scars. Murder victims have no life left. Just because its quick and relatively painless in a game (or sometimes in life) doesn't mean that it's ok.

 

[SadakoMoose]

A: I find it disturbing that you subscribe to that theory. By that logic Isralies could launch a nuclear attack against Germany. Just paying them back for the nazi thing.

B: Also, i will not provide a real police officer while you get to give a highly unrealistic fictional character as your example.
B2: And dont try to use the guy from Saw either.

I've never even seen SAW. I don't watch shit.

Furthermore, I'm talking more on a person-to-person basis.
Your example is stupid. Massively so.
I'm not saying, "Kill one thousand people because there's one dude who deserves it in the crowd."

Also, I don't really see how he's unrealistic. None of the things he does are beyond the capabilities of you or me.
Well. Maybe not beyond me, anyway.

I have good friends with relatives and loved ones in Law Enforecment, Max
Screw you, you Arkansas cow rapist.

 

[Phototoxin]

This is what *real* rapists are thinking: 'oh--she wore too short a skirt/allowed me to buy her dinner/turned me on/got drunk/etc. so now she's a slut and I can rape her, and it's okay'. Not 'oh boy, this is like that game I had to import from Japan'.

Chances are if a woman accuses a man of raping her questions like her past relationships, choice of clothing and underwear will be brought into question in the trial. Not exactly the most pleasant thing to happen in a trail but that is part of it.

 

[AngloDoom]

Murder in games is fine, it's been fine for ages. We love to have epic fights and battles to the death, we always have, that's why we had arena's full of gladiators and that's why a lot of people would support that nowadays so long as everyone was consenting. Hell, even rape in games is fine if it is used for an objective; you show how evil Baddy X is by showing him (without being graphic for the sake of perversion) rape someone, or just sometimes imply he does through camera, speech, whatever. That's fine, rape is such a universal 'no-no' that it is a great way of making you hate a character. It's been used in games before, no-doubt, but if you were to control these sequences, to watch each action take place, to painfully rape a character, to hear their screams and protests, and watch the tears roll down their eyes, then I'd be against it.

Why? Why are you against something which leaves a person alive and able to cry as opposed to something whcih is aguably less painful but will have permanently deprived them of life? Rape is horrifically terrible, i hope I get promoted in my job so I can help catch such people but at the same time murder is worse. Rape victims are alive and have a life with scars. Murder victims have no life left. Just because its quick and relatively painless in a game (or sometimes in life) doesn't mean that it's ok.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear, but I am not arguing that rape is better or worse than murder. I am confining it into terms of games. Rape is not worse than murder in my opinion, most things besides a prolonged agonising life or a vegetative state are better than dying.

My point is a game which has a sole point of giving you direct control over someone raping people, some of which are not even pubescent, to allow you to masturbate while depicting women as sexual tools is wrong. Just as how I would argue how a game in which you control the slow agonising torture of someone directly, being able to zoom into their face as you slowly carve up their body is also sick and wrong.

Comparing "press X to make person fall over and go "argh" " to "control in which way, place, time, and position you rape someone and watch their facial expression and hear their pleas for help" is just not at all fair.

 

[Gyrefalcon]

I have a new wrench to throw into this discussion. There is a man who is being jailed for buying/owning Manga. Here is Neil Gaimen's take on it (he wrote the Sandman comics and Small Gods and Neverwhere as well as has had his books Stardust and Coraline made into movies.) http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/11/24/neil-gaiman-on-the-obscenity-of-manga-collector-christopher-handleys-trial/

With this knowledge do you think that making/owning such a game might land you in jail? And is it something without any scientific, artistic, or other such merit so that it falls into the range of this law?

(But kudos to all the people on the thread attempting to seriously discuss this as an issue without just allowing it to devolve! It's a serious issue and there have been a lot of good arguments presented here. It's a good and healthy exercise in debate.)

 

[Geoffrey42]

It should have dawned on me earlier, for a lot of you defending RapeLay, it's not about defending free speech or RapeLay, it's about defending your Rape Fantasy fetish. I'm sure there are some for whom it actually is a free speech issue, but I think any of you with the fetish are simply fooling yourselves into thinking of it as a free speech issue because on some level you perceive attacks on RapeLay as an attack on your lifestyle.

Wow.

Just...

Wow.

Now you're trying to shame us into agreeing with you?

I see unjustified, unsubstantiated attacks on RapeLay as attacks on rationality, which, yes, I consider a key tenet of my lifestyle.

 

[Gyrefalcon]

This is what *real* rapists are thinking: 'oh--she wore too short a skirt/allowed me to buy her dinner/turned me on/got drunk/etc. so now she's a slut and I can rape her, and it's okay'. Not 'oh boy, this is like that game I had to import from Japan'.

Chances are if a woman accuses a man of raping her questions like her past relationships, choice of clothing and underwear will be brought into question in the trial. Not exactly the most pleasant thing to happen in a trail but that is part of it.

I was watching some show on the Documentary Channel and they were interviewing some men in a prison. The rapists really had no idea why they were in there. One of them said, "Oh, the girl was walking down the street alone so she was asking for it."

How is walking to the market asking for it? Do women need a male escort like they have in some cultures to not "be asking for it"? No.

I see people walking down the street with better clothes, cars, or tech toys than I have, oddly enough I can control my impulses and not jump them and steal their belongings. This is the same for people and rape IRL. Either you are acknowledging that you live in a civilized society and you are not allowed to just take things that are not yours or you are not and are going to break the laws that allow us to have an organized society. Why are there questions as to what the woman wore? Women see attractive men but even if they were in a speedo at a beach you don't hear about many women saying "he was asking for it" and attacking him. Either you have permission to touch or you don't.

And to help those who are having trouble understanding why rape is historically ranked up with murder this might help. Imagine a family coming home after a nice night out at dinner. They walk in and immediately sense something is wrong. Things are out of place and as they walk through the house they find the side door has been broken into and some of their valuables are gone. The kids start to cry and the mother fears to have them sleep there since they don't know if the burglar might come back to wreak more harm.

They stay with friends for the night but even the father can't stand to be in the house anymore. It was their sanctuary and it has been violated, this place that was supposed to be their escape from the trials and tribulations of the world. So they move. (And this does happen sometimes.)

Now you are a woman who has been raped. Your body has been violated. But you can't move. How do you ever feel safe again?

There may be ways to explore it in a video game media that might be done in a careful, artistic style that would make people think about the subject in a serious light. Or someone could indeed do a literal telling of the Greek Myths or even the Arthurian Cycle where you might play out or see played out a rape scene that is well known to have been in the tales and STILL be the heroic character. But is it worth it?

I don't own Duke Nukem nor the Grand Theft Auto games. And I don't think everyone who plays them goes out in real life and shoots people or steals cars. But I don't like the way the games treat women. I don't like the prostitution or the beating of them to get back your money and more. Yet, I know some of my friends chuckle as they grab the cash then go out and run down pedestrians. I don't blame them but I don't have to watch it and I won't support it.

And maybe a game done with the story of Percival (believe it was him) raping a girl because he had been raised alone in the woods and he did not know better along with the raping of Lancelot since he was tricked into having sex with Elaine of Carbonek, could be done and might manage it well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_(legend)#Elaine_of_Carbonek
But if a game is centered around rape rather than having it as an unfortunate event, I can't see how it could be done and have the main character be called a hero. Anyone else see how a rapist could be a "hero"? (And not the Hitler thing again either, please.) Maybe playing Bueno Excellente from Section 8? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_(comics) Although I still can't see how that would work out very well either.

 

[Valentine82]

It should have dawned on me earlier, for a lot of you defending RapeLay, it's not about defending free speech or RapeLay, it's about defending your Rape Fantasy fetish. I'm sure there are some for whom it actually is a free speech issue, but I think any of you with the fetish are simply fooling yourselves into thinking of it as a free speech issue because on some level you perceive attacks on RapeLay as an attack on your lifestyle.

Wow.

Just...

Wow.

Now you're trying to shame us into agreeing with you?

I see unjustified, unsubstantiated attacks on RapeLay as attacks on rationality, which, yes, I consider a key tenet of my lifestyle.

How on earth did you take what I said as me trying to shame you?

 

[meisnewbie]

"How on earth did you take what I said as me trying to shame you?"

If it's not, then it's a useless piece of drivel. There's no need for us to know about your armchair psychologist attempts nor does it accomplish ANYTHING for the issue at hand.

Oh, right, I missed your response to a post earlier

"WOW! That's a jaw dropper given how wide spread the information is"

To point out, the inferiority of the African to the Caucasian, the completely irrational idea that terrorists are at all a threat (You're more likely to suffocate in your bed than be killed by a terrorist) and that pesticides are toxic all constitute "common" and "widespread" knowledge that don't have an ounce of truth to them.

Furthermore I question whether you actually read the articles to wikipedia that you linked to or just a priori assumed that they would support your point.

The rape article refers only specifically to Japan in the time of war, which isn't at all the topic of discussion.

The groping article only cites one statistic gotten from a random website on "Japan's craziness" without citing the name of the original study, and the evidence given forth in the article only accounts for around 4000 people, which is less than a minority of a minority.

...in fact, the most useful article on wikipedia would probably be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car which cites that 2/3rds of Japanese women have reported being groped, one man is certainly not limited to only groping one woman and if they are not arrested they can obviously repeatedly commit the crime. To wit: that doesn't mean that the activity is widespread among men or accepted, in fact the article says that it is the difficulty of identifying the perpetrator that is keeping arrest rates down.

"The number of women groped and assaulted in Japan is stageringly high, I cited a couple of links in a previous post that may interest you."

Groped yes, assaulted, no. Japan has a rate around 78 times less than Canada and about 32 times lower than America in terms of rape convictions.

"Need an example of a more private medium of free expression that would be censored? I'd be amused to see someone try and write a book in which the protagonist is a glorified white supremacist who assassinates Obama, I would hope that kind of book would be banned and I'm sure it would be. If not, drop it into the hands of white supremicist hate groups and let it sit for awhile. The words of the Fascist started out as nothing but free speech, but as we learned with Germany words and ideas give way to action."

First of all to presume that the SPEECH is the cause rather than underlying social or political forces is silly. Second of all, the fascists in Germany had much more than speech to back them up (SS bombed opposition parties).