Heh, there are a ton of great wrpgs out there, but good luck getting your average gamer (FALLOUT3 HELL YEA) to even notice them. They were probably in diapers when they came out.Riku said:
Your Top 5 Western RPGs and Your Top 5 JRPGs (Single Player)
- Thread starter Insomniaku
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Okay, okay, an elitist would know how to spell elitist. Also, fine approach of "take one minor point from the post and ignore the rest".imahobbit4062 said:
I read the sentence wrong, happy? But how exactly isn't KoTOR's combat the same as any other WRPG out there? Besides the camera perspective, I don't see how exactly it sets itself apart from the older top-view WRPGs.
Western - Neverwinter Nights
Baldur's Gate 2
Dragon Age: Origins
Planescape Torment
Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer
Honorable Mentions: The Witcher; KotoR
JRPG - Disgaea 3
Disgaea
Disgaea 2
Final Fantasy 6
Suikoden 5
Honorable Mentions: Final Fantasy Tactics; Final Fantasy 4
Baldur's Gate 2
Dragon Age: Origins
Planescape Torment
Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer
Honorable Mentions: The Witcher; KotoR
JRPG - Disgaea 3
Disgaea
Disgaea 2
Final Fantasy 6
Suikoden 5
Honorable Mentions: Final Fantasy Tactics; Final Fantasy 4
Western:
Baldur's Gate 2
Neverwinter Nights (for modding, the expansions, and certain fan-made mods)
Temple of Elemental Evil (best use of the D&D rules in a PC game EVARR)
Dragon Age: Origins
Planescape: Torment
JRPGs:
FFX is honestly the only one I have really enjoyed. And that's probably just because it was the first one I tried. I really enjoyed it, though.
BTW, what's with the negative comments on DAO? It's a classic RPG with modern graphics. That's what Bioware wanted it to be. That's what fans of the BG saga have been waiting for. The problem a lot of RPG fans have with recent titles is that devs want to reinvent the wheel every time they make a new game. We prefer round wheels. Don't say "round has been done". It worked. It's the best shape for a wheel. DAO goes back to an abandoned formula that in many RPG players opinion shouldn't have been abandoned. I guess the downside is, it's not for everyone.
Baldur's Gate 2
Neverwinter Nights (for modding, the expansions, and certain fan-made mods)
Temple of Elemental Evil (best use of the D&D rules in a PC game EVARR)
Dragon Age: Origins
Planescape: Torment
JRPGs:
FFX is honestly the only one I have really enjoyed. And that's probably just because it was the first one I tried. I really enjoyed it, though.
BTW, what's with the negative comments on DAO? It's a classic RPG with modern graphics. That's what Bioware wanted it to be. That's what fans of the BG saga have been waiting for. The problem a lot of RPG fans have with recent titles is that devs want to reinvent the wheel every time they make a new game. We prefer round wheels. Don't say "round has been done". It worked. It's the best shape for a wheel. DAO goes back to an abandoned formula that in many RPG players opinion shouldn't have been abandoned. I guess the downside is, it's not for everyone.
I said "the older top-view WRPGs", not "WRPGs these days".imahobbit4062 said:
Just because the turn list is hidden doesn't mean it's not turn based. The action happens quickly unlike most turn based JRPGs, but not unlike FFXII however for example... although it still has visible turn-timers, it's actually closer real time than KoTOR, since the character speed stat affects how quickly he or she will get the turn, while in KoTOR you get your turn at the same time every round (you get turn every 3 seconds if I recall).
The turns happen relatively quickly in KoTOR and there's no visible counter for them, but they are there. It's pseudo real time at most.
Also, as pointed out by other people, you do realize turn based gameplay's are very common in WRPGs?
Me? Hah, I don't hate neither kinds of RPGs. That makes me a pretty unlikely candidate to be the one who is biased, doesn't it?
And no, it wasn't the most important point just because it had the most text.
Do me one favour though, tell me what RPGs you have actually played?
I suppose the real problem is, for many, JRPGs are not, in fact, RPGs.
We all know it's the category they're placed under, and when someone says "JRPG", we know what it's supposed to mean. But, for many, an RPG is, well, a role playing game. You take command of a character who has to act as an extension of you. You make decisions that affect the world you exist in as well as the character itself.
With many JRPGs, you generally are not making any decisions. You aren't the character you control, you simply take over for a small bit of free-roaming. You can make some decisions which may change a few dynamics of the game, but with a few truly notable exceptions, you simply are on the rails watching as the characters do everything for you.
Qualifying statements? Why, sure, I've got a whole bag of 'em right over here. Let me see...
Oooh, this one's got a little age on it, but it's nice and fragrant and reeks of the point I'm trying to make:
Final Fantasy VIII
I don't know about you, but if I were truly in control of Squall, I'd have just chucked most of the slow, whiny relationship with Rinoa and taken an eager and willing Quistis into my dorm room to see how many tricks she could think of with that whip. But instead of having steamy turn-based sex with my "teacher", I'm left to yell at Squall every time he soliloquises about his stupid fractured past and why he just plain don't trust people(Not in a cool, gritty old man kind of way, but in a desperately attention-seeking teenager kind of way). Nothing about Squall reflects me or any decisions I've made for him, and thus does not qualify as a role playing game. The story has the same ending no matter what I do, and none of my side-questing did anything to affect the outcome.
Ultimately, if I don't like the story, there's nothing I can do to affect my role in it. And with JRPGs, well, there are simply concepts that do not end up translating very well. By which I mean the actual translations.
Sure, we've come a long way from "All Your Base are Belong to Us", but the dialogue in a lot of JRPGs can range to boring and pointless to painful and bizarre. Which was much more acceptable when the characters could not audibly speak. Japan, for whatever reason, neither knows how english is supposed to sound naturally, nor can they find anyone who can comfortably speak Japanese enough to translate into decent(not "acceptable") dialogue. I've never played a JRPG and said to myself: "Ooh, that's a witty comeback" or "Wow, this really speaks to me". Because the best they can do, for the most part, is make the english understandable. But as soon as they accomplish that, they let the English-speaking producers hire their in-laws to do the voice acting, and everything becomes laughably terrible.
This isn't an old complaint by any means. I could probably name at least 5 JRPGs off the top of my head for our most recent console generation that suffer aggressively from this problem without giving it a moment's thought. I mean, for instance, did anyone play through the most recent Star Ocean? I couldn't weather more than twenty minutes of that game, despite the real-time combat, because the voices were so painful it almost sounded like they were making a parody of Star Ocean.
Anyway, like I said earlier, there are definitely worthwhile JRPGs out there, but there are pretty solid reasons not to like them.
We all know it's the category they're placed under, and when someone says "JRPG", we know what it's supposed to mean. But, for many, an RPG is, well, a role playing game. You take command of a character who has to act as an extension of you. You make decisions that affect the world you exist in as well as the character itself.
With many JRPGs, you generally are not making any decisions. You aren't the character you control, you simply take over for a small bit of free-roaming. You can make some decisions which may change a few dynamics of the game, but with a few truly notable exceptions, you simply are on the rails watching as the characters do everything for you.
Qualifying statements? Why, sure, I've got a whole bag of 'em right over here. Let me see...
Oooh, this one's got a little age on it, but it's nice and fragrant and reeks of the point I'm trying to make:
Final Fantasy VIII
I don't know about you, but if I were truly in control of Squall, I'd have just chucked most of the slow, whiny relationship with Rinoa and taken an eager and willing Quistis into my dorm room to see how many tricks she could think of with that whip. But instead of having steamy turn-based sex with my "teacher", I'm left to yell at Squall every time he soliloquises about his stupid fractured past and why he just plain don't trust people(Not in a cool, gritty old man kind of way, but in a desperately attention-seeking teenager kind of way). Nothing about Squall reflects me or any decisions I've made for him, and thus does not qualify as a role playing game. The story has the same ending no matter what I do, and none of my side-questing did anything to affect the outcome.
Ultimately, if I don't like the story, there's nothing I can do to affect my role in it. And with JRPGs, well, there are simply concepts that do not end up translating very well. By which I mean the actual translations.
Sure, we've come a long way from "All Your Base are Belong to Us", but the dialogue in a lot of JRPGs can range to boring and pointless to painful and bizarre. Which was much more acceptable when the characters could not audibly speak. Japan, for whatever reason, neither knows how english is supposed to sound naturally, nor can they find anyone who can comfortably speak Japanese enough to translate into decent(not "acceptable") dialogue. I've never played a JRPG and said to myself: "Ooh, that's a witty comeback" or "Wow, this really speaks to me". Because the best they can do, for the most part, is make the english understandable. But as soon as they accomplish that, they let the English-speaking producers hire their in-laws to do the voice acting, and everything becomes laughably terrible.
This isn't an old complaint by any means. I could probably name at least 5 JRPGs off the top of my head for our most recent console generation that suffer aggressively from this problem without giving it a moment's thought. I mean, for instance, did anyone play through the most recent Star Ocean? I couldn't weather more than twenty minutes of that game, despite the real-time combat, because the voices were so painful it almost sounded like they were making a parody of Star Ocean.
Anyway, like I said earlier, there are definitely worthwhile JRPGs out there, but there are pretty solid reasons not to like them.
WRPG:
Mass Effect
Morrowind
Baldur's Gate 2
Diablo 2
Torchlight
JRPG:
Pokemon Platinum
Pokemon Red/Blue
Pokemon Yellow
Pokemon Gold Silver
Golden Sun
Most JRPGs trigger my gag reflex almost immediately.
Mass Effect
Morrowind
Baldur's Gate 2
Diablo 2
Torchlight
JRPG:
Pokemon Platinum
Pokemon Red/Blue
Pokemon Yellow
Pokemon Gold Silver
Golden Sun
Most JRPGs trigger my gag reflex almost immediately.
I disagree completely. I played through all three Disgaea games because the stories are EPIC. At least with the third game, I went through the entire story without replaying a single map, simply because I had to know what happened next.Stickfigure said:
That being said, the games really are perfect for people who obsessed with level grinding. I just don't think it's at all a requirement for enjoying what might be the most entertaining series of games ever released.
I am seeing a lot of overlap in this thread. Yes, I know that Final Fantasy is going to figure heavily into these lists because let's face it. Everyone has played a Final Fantasy game at some point in their tenure as a gamer. It's like a requirement. Just like at some point everyone has played Mario, Sonic, Tomb Raider, Street Fighter, Tekken, Madden, and Zelda... If for no other reason than to see what all the hype is about.
But what I think the real problem is is the lack of good Western RPGs, and the fact that all the RPGs western developers release are more or less pretty samey. At the risk of sounding like I'm ripping off Yahtzee, Oblivion and Fallout 3 were, more or less the same game with a different location and weapon selection. It's like they're just phoning it in and not bothering to make new games and explore new gameplay mechanics. They're going with the Microsoft/XBox/Halo strategy of "Hey, they seemed to like this, Look at the gigantic pile of money we have now. Let's give them more of the same! The money pile can only get bigger!" This is just as much our fault as it is theirs. We keep buying the same old crap and they can't sell it to us fast enough.
But what I think the real problem is is the lack of good Western RPGs, and the fact that all the RPGs western developers release are more or less pretty samey. At the risk of sounding like I'm ripping off Yahtzee, Oblivion and Fallout 3 were, more or less the same game with a different location and weapon selection. It's like they're just phoning it in and not bothering to make new games and explore new gameplay mechanics. They're going with the Microsoft/XBox/Halo strategy of "Hey, they seemed to like this, Look at the gigantic pile of money we have now. Let's give them more of the same! The money pile can only get bigger!" This is just as much our fault as it is theirs. We keep buying the same old crap and they can't sell it to us fast enough.
Okay:
WRPG:
Oblivion
Neverwinter Nights (the original & expansions)
Fallout 3
I liked the Norrath games on the PS2
JRPG:
Secret of Mana
There are others that I've played, but although they are technically in my top 5 I didn't like them, so they aren't ging in.
WRPG:
Oblivion
Neverwinter Nights (the original & expansions)
Fallout 3
I liked the Norrath games on the PS2
JRPG:
Secret of Mana
There are others that I've played, but although they are technically in my top 5 I didn't like them, so they aren't ging in.
Then doesn't that make the name of RPG a misnomer(Unless RPG has come to stand for something else)? And then what differentiates it from other genres, other than laborious stat building? Or are you arguing that said stat building is, essentially, the defining trait of the video game? Epic storylines, group combat, and equipment management have all been tackled in most other gaming archetypes, so what makes an RPG?Axeli said:
Regardless of whether or not it's the broad standard for the console and pc RPG, freedom of choice has been in many different video game RPGs, so it's not an alien concept, either. Even the JRPGs have examples of expanse and game-altering decision making in their rather enormous catalogue.
I mean, look at the games where you can effect noteable changes to the game, if not their endings:
Star Ocean
Persona 3 + 4
Fallout 3
Fable
The Elder Scrolls Series
Those are just to name a few. It's not that I don't get that RPG refers to a broader range of games, but perhaps that's one of the reasons the extremely linear style of gameplay inherent in many JRPGs is off-putting to others. It's not, obviously, the ONLY reason, but one worthy of consideration.
Perhaps I needed to elaborate. It's not that they're bad games, far from it. But a lot of the humor, charm, and appeal of the games speak to a more hardcore crowd, while the OP is somewhat new. I didn't mean "Don't play this game" as much as I meant "Don't play this yet." But you make a fair point, and I apologize.TheSupremeForce said:
