Zero Punctuation: Dante's Inferno

[shadow skill]

The mature thing is to actually explain it, not simply say you meant something equally if not more vague than what you said last! I've explained what was causing the change in argument, I have pointed out that Devil May Cry was not the first in it's genre (utilizing the term's standard definition.), you haven't done any of that.

I've done all of that and more, several times.

That you can't see it is proof positive that you're too immature to read what was presented.

It really should not be at all surprising that I've lost all motivation to even try anymore.

If you want me to explain this to you, pay me. It has become a laborious chore worthy of $20/hr.

Still nothing I see. Wow you are so mature, admit to misusing a term say you are referring to something else and then when asked to define just what that something else is you refuse.

 

[shadow skill]

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition. Yet I and anyone else reading any of what you have said here is supposed to just accept whatever it is you throw out there. You claim I don't know how to have a debate but you refuse to actually say what qualities Devil May Cry, God of War, and Bayonetta all posses. You want people to not take your use of the word genre by the word's intended meaning but you have yet to provide a supplemental meaning for the purposes of this discussion. I read all your posts before I replied and not once did you actually mention the qualities you speak of here on this page. (Unless of course you have edited your posts to add all that in.) I have to question what business you have mocking me or A1 when you still have not actually said what you mean, and only that my reading of the words you have been using is wrong? You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case. However we are all to accept this as truth without any reason (definition) for the argument you are making. When I say that all games are RPG's I don't expect people to take that as gospel without either linking them to the definition of roleplay or using some other device to explain my assertion.

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out of this word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

So deal with it.

You don't seem to get that you have been implicitly talking about genres the entire time. Any classification is based on the qualities a group of items possesses. You may think you are not, but you are.

 

[geldonyetich]

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out the misuse of a word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case.

Because it's self-evident to anyone with enough world knowledge to know that "genre" in the context you are using it in is wholly applies to some poor schmuck categorizing games, and has next to no bearing on what I was really talking about.

 

[shadow skill]

Heh you are the one who started down this maturity tangent. It is you who has quite clearly and by your own admission misused a term with a clearly defined definition.

What I admitted was that using the term "genre" leaves a certain ambiguity. That as much as you're going to get out of me, because that's where the wrong if what I did ends.

Your wrong is far more extensive. You jumped to the conclusion that when I said "genre" I must have meant "beat'em'up", but this is only the start of your problems. You wrongfully believe "beat'em'up" is a universal genre definition. It's not. It's just one example of crude shot-in-the-dark game categorization, of which "genre" is an equally crude shotgun of a label.

Your wrong went on for several messages - mine was just one sentence which, being at the head of the catastrophe, squarely pegs your misinterpretation of that sentence as the cause of your discontent.

I've already explained to you that you're building a cage for yourself out the misuse of a word, but it's clearly over your head specifically due to your immaturity.

You state that beat em up is a crude classification but you have not stated why this is the case.

Because it's self-evident to anyone with enough world knowledge to know that "genre" in the context you are using it in is wholly applies to some poor schmuck categorizing games, and has next to no bearing on what I was really talking about.

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

 

[geldonyetich]

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

The trouble is that when you saw me use the word "genre," you believed it was referring specifically to this crude classification definition of the word.

According to Webster's Dictionary, I was not really in the wrong to use the word. However, I meant something more specific than you decided I meant: a genre to which the typical crude words would not encapsulate, which referred specifically to God Of War/Devil May Cry like games.

If you had paid appropriate attention to the context of my original message, this should have been self-evident, because these are the only games I mentioned and it's mentioned in the context of a third similar game Dante's Inferno. Even Yahtzee himself expresses that "Dante's Inferno is God Of War" and as far as I'm concerned Devil May Cry isn't distinct enough to matter.

That you are so completely dead-set on believing the wholly incorrect misinterpretation you have made must have been what I meant from the start indicates that you are completely insane because you apparently believe you are capable of reading my mind.

It thus fills me with revulsion that things have dragged on over this simple matter. I actually missed a second semester Spanish class today because I allowed myself to get occupied on this thread at a bad time. But, at the same time, it's human nature to delude ourselves thusly. It's fostering awareness these built-in slippery slopes that bring about wisdom.

 

[shadow skill]

But it is not self evident that it is a crude classification, beat-em up is only a general classification in the same way that shooter is a general classification. Crude would be that it does not truly fit at all in this case not that it is a more general term that happens to encompass 2d and 3d games which are sometimes called hack and slash games if there is heavy weapon usage.

The trouble is that when you saw me use the word "genre," you believed it was referring specifically to this crude classification definition of the word.

I meant something slightly more specific. A genre to which the typical crude words would not encapsulate, which referred specifically to God Of War/Devil May Cry like games.

If you had paid appropriate attention to the context of my original message, this should have been self-evident, because these are the only games I mentioned and it's mentioned in teh context of a third similar game Dante's Inferno.

That you are so completely revoltingly dead-set on believing the wholly incorrect misinterpretation you have made must have been what I meant from the start indicates that you are completely insane because you apparently believe you are capable of reading my mind.

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me? I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo That is why I asked you what elements you are talking about because there are lots of common elements to these games which is why they are a part of the same genre.

 

[geldonyetich]

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me?

Hey, go ahead and interpret words based on their definition. According to Webster's Dictionary I was fully in my rights to use the word "genre" the way I did.

When I say there was "ambiguity" I just meant that there was room for a wrong-minded twit to misunderstand if they applied themselves.

Which you did. Congrats.

It seems my temper is flaring again. Some poster boy of wisdom I am. I do have to hand it to you - though I believe you a wrong-minded fool in many respects, at least you keep your temper better than I have.

I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo

Not even close.

Listen. To. Me. A GENRE SPECIFIC TO THE GAMES DEVIL MAY CRY, BAYONETTA, GOD OF WAR, AND DANTE'S INFERNO. If you leave what those three games have in common, you are wrong, no matter what crude label you believe they all fit under.

The key phase is: the context in which the word was applied. Context is actually a cornerstone of the English language. If you do not pay attention to the context, you are failing to communicate.

Can I make it any simpler? I don't think I can. Ima gunna go boot up X-Com: Apocolypse and kill some goddamn Anthropods until my caffeine fueled rage subsides.

 

[Jing the Bandit]

I think maybe it was being 'molested' by the wind, or some shit like that, and then they throw Joan of Arc in there for some reason or another.

 

[Andaxay]

I LOVE when Yahtzee starts running out of breath. In his effort to get the whole sentence out before complete lack of oxygen, he sounds angry and sarcastic, and it makes me laugh every time.

Meh. One of my friends at work is completely obsessed with Dante's Inferno, he really won't shut up about how good it is. He uses the phrase "like God of War," too when describing it to customers.

 

[shadow skill]

So I'm not supposed to interpret words based on their definition, only what you tell me?

Hey, go ahead and interpret words based on their definition. According to Webster's Dictionary I was fully in my rights to use the word "genre" the way I did.

When I say there was "ambiguity" I just meant that there was room for a wrong-minded twit to misunderstand if they applied themselves.

Which you did. Congrats.

It seems my temper is flaring again. Some poster boy of wisdom I am. I do have to hand it to you - though I believe you a wrong-minded fool in many respects, at least you keep your temper better than I have.

I'm also not supposed to ask what qualities you are talking about when I can find a game that has many elements that are common to DMC, Bayonetta, God of War and Dante's Inferno that was released back in 1998? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDK02S1tryo

Not even close.

Listen. To. Me. A GENRE SPECIFIC TO THE GAMES DEVIL MAY CRY, BAYONETTA, GOD OF WAR, AND DANTE'S INFERNO. If you leave what those three games have in common, you are wrong, no matter what crude label you believe they all fit under.

The key phase is: the context in which the word was applied. Context is actually a cornerstone of the English language. If you do not pay attention to the context, you are failing to communicate.

Can I make it any simpler? I don't think I can. Ima gunna go boot up X-Com: Apocolypse and kill some goddamn Anthropods until my caffeine fueled rage subsides.

You were the one who said you had misused the term. When I read what you said I operated on the idea that you had intended to use the word genre to describe what you meant. This fact means that claiming that Devil May Cry was the first of it's kind factually untrue period. Secondly it seems to me that you are arguing that DMC, Bayonetta, God of War, and Dante's Inferno are a genre unto themselves without actually defining that genre. So many other games have commonality with these games that trying to separate them into a new category makes no sense whatsoever. The things that Devil May Cry did mechanically where already done by older games, so how in the hell could Devil May Cry logically be called the first in a new genre?

 

[wiredk]

Sounds like the real Yahtzee was murdered a long time ago and they're desperately trying to keep him alive through voice synthesizing.

 

[geldonyetich]

You were the one who said you had misused the term.

Go back to where I said that and read again. There's a difference between there being 'ambiguity' and the term being 'misused.'

When I read what you said I operated on the idea that you had intended to use the word genre to describe what you meant.

You sure did. And you were wrong to do so because you took the word out of context.

Actually, I'm going to stop right there:

You took me out of context. You've always been taking me out of context.

That is where the failure to communicate was.

End of story. Simple. Simple enough that it would require a herculean amount of stubborn immaturity not to understand.

 

[shadow skill]

You were the one who said you had misused the term.

Go back to where I said that and read again. There's a difference between there being 'ambiguity' and the term being 'misused.'

When I read what you said I operated on the idea that you had intended to use the word genre to describe what you meant.

You sure did. And you were wrong to do so because you took the word out of context.

Actually, I'm going to stop right there:

You took me out of context. You've always been taking me out of context.

That is where the failure to communicate was.

End of story. Simple. Simple enough that it would require a herculean amount of stubborn immaturity not to understand.

Well if you say that it creates ambiguity because what the word means isn't actually what you mean then it is a misuse of the term. I didn't take you out of context, you tried to create a context for yourself without defining what that context even was until now. Even then it still makes no sense because the context that you have created isn't even properly defined to distinguish it from the words you are using. You haven't defined what you think this new genre is, yet you claim that these games are all a part of it while every other game that is understood to actually be a part of the genre these games belong to is not. In other words you created an entirely arbitrary designation, didn't explain said designation, made fun of people for not getting your unexplained and arbitrary designation, then tried to pass yourself off as the "mature" party, failed to consider that the idea that these games are a genre unto themselves makes absolutely no sense since other games have done the things these games do long before they were made, unless you define the elements you are talking about; then proceeded to accuse others of taking you out of context.

If the context only exists in your head whilst you make no effort to actually communicate that context, people can't take you out of context.

 

[geldonyetich]

Well if you say that it creates ambiguity because what the word means isn't actually what you mean then it is a misuse of the term.

Good God, why do you try so hard to be so wrong?

No, when something creates ambiguity, it does not mean the word is misused, it just means that it's possible to misinterpret.

Now, consider this: even in a perfectly worded paragraph, the possibility of misinterpretation exists.

For example, the reader could take your words out of context. Completely their fault. No matter how well-worded the sentence was, it would be unavoidable.

Maybe I was wrong to even say the word "genre" was ambiguious at all. Webster's dictionary says it was the right word. I imagine most English majors would agree that the word was used appropriately.

I was trying to be generous. I see that was wasted on you because apparently that you've seen the word "genre" used in a certain way on certain websites has cemented your brain into such a fossilized brick that you're unable or unwilling to look at it in any other way.

No, you probably just have this deep irrational psychological need to be the guy who's "right" to the point where you'll desperately attempt to bend time and space to get there. Deeply ironic that you'll never be right because you won't see where you went wrong.

 

[phar]

Thats the funniest ZP ive seen in quite a while

 

[A1]

As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't the second or subsequent times either.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first. [Edit: Lest we run into anybody else as thick as Shadow Skill, don't take the word "genre" as implying "Action" or "Beat'Em'Ups" or "Fighting" or any silly word someone tasked with categorizing games might have put under the word "genre." Instead, think of it as something much more specific to the God of War/Devil May Cry experience.]

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

Do you know what straw man tactics are?

Essentially a straw man tactic is when someone takes something that's easy to attack or counter and attributes it to their opponent. Or perhaps more formally it's misrepresenting your opponent's position.

""You: OMG! GOW-III IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN DEVIL MAY CRY! I'M GOING TO NAME MY FIRST BORN SON KRATOS AND CAST YOU DOWN INTO A PIT OF DESPAIR FOR DARING TO SLANDER THE GOD OF WAR NAME.""

Does this look familiar? It seems to look like an attempt to misrepresent my position.

You seem to be accusing me of being overzealous (and yes I am referring to what appears to be your original unedited post). But I'm simply defending the game. That by no means automatically makes me overzealous.

""To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first.""

Perhaps you should take a closer look at my previous posts. I didn't say anything at all about anything being better or worse. Although perhaps this is at least partially my fault because maybe I didn't have sufficient clarification (although this seems to be a mistake that you could probably relate to to at least some extent). What I mean is that based on the latest God of War 3 trailer and the characteristics of Devil May Cry 4 it would seem that in terms of similarities the two game franchises are growing farther apart from each other, whether they be of the same genre or not. Especially if one is referring to God of War 3 specifically (which I am by the way).

""Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong""

Perhaps. But on the other hand your previous post seems to be at least somewhat lacking in terms of clarity (although I know that I'm really not in any position to judge with regard to that particular subject). What I mean is this:

""Maybe I would wait for God of War III if I wasn't already pretty bored of the Devil May Cry formula.""

This seems to strongly imply that you aren't willing to wait for the game. That in turn seems to strongly imply that you've already made up your mind about the game. And that in turn would seem to bear a little more than a passing resemblance to a judgement call.

""I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.""

Now you're being presumptuous and not particularly mature. Especially when taking into account that I am not the one who brought up Devil May Cry in the first place.

 

[shadow skill]

It's the job of the person making the statement to be clear. Especially in an environment like this where it cannot be known if the people reading what is being said are native English speakers. If someone doesn't understand something you say it is your fault not theirs. It's not about genre being used a certain way on the internet, it is about how it is used in the English language itself. It's not jargon, that only select circles know about, it is a standard term. You don't invent a new definition for a term without defining it. Simply saying "It's the stuff common to W,X,Y,Z." Isn't a definition because it doesn't tell the reader what those common things actually are.

Well if you say that it creates ambiguity because what the word means isn't actually what you mean then it is a misuse of the term.

Good God, why do you try so hard to be so wrong?

No, when something creates ambiguity, it does not mean the word is misused, it just means that it's possible to misinterpret.

Now, consider this: even in a perfectly worded paragraph, the possibility of misinterpretation exists.

For example, the reader could take your words out of context. Completely their fault. No matter how well-worded the sentence was, it would be unavoidable.

Maybe I was wrong to even say the word "genre" was ambiguious at all. Webster's dictionary says it was the right word. I imagine most English majors would agree that the word was used appropriately.

I was trying to be generous. I see that was wasted on you because apparently that you've seen the word "genre" used in a certain way on certain websites has cemented your brain into such a fossilized brick that you're unable or unwilling to look at it in any other way.

No, you probably just have this deep irrational psychological need to be the guy who's "right" to the point where you'll desperately attempt to bend time and space to get there. Deeply ironic that you'll never be right because you won't see where you went wrong.

No one here actually knows what you mean, they are not in your head. They may not speak English as a first language. If you are going to discuss a subject with anyone learn to actually define what you mean and frame your argument correctly. Chanting "You're wrong." without going into actual reasons why (IE. Not mere vagaries.) is not the way to do it. Especially if you are going to belittle another person.

 

[geldonyetich]

It's the job of the person making the statement to be clear

Yes, but I'm not at fault here, the idiot who got all hung up on the use of one word out of a sentence, one appropriately-used but misinterpretted anyway[/u, is at fault here.

It's the job of the reader to try to understand what is written. From the very start, you have been trying NOT to understand what is written. And that is why you fail.

I'm the one who wrote the message, and I explained to you how you misunderstood it, and you still failed. Do you have any idea how pathetic that is?

Anyone who has been able to follow this "conversation" we've been having and see that you are desperately hanging upon the fact that I used the word "genre" as rationalization that I made a mistake.

Which is as adorable as ever, but guess what, kid? You're still dead wrong.

And this is the most adorable part of all:

Chanting "You're wrong." without going into actual reasons why

Again: Good God. I can't believe how many times I've explained things to you only to have you say that I'm being vague. I tried to simply, I really did, but it just wasn't good enough. Your brain is simply not developed adequately to understand what I am saying.

Tell you what, archive this and get back to me in 12 years.

 

[geldonyetich]

As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't the second or subsequent times either.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first. [Edit: Lest we run into anybody else as thick as Shadow Skill, don't take the word "genre" as implying "Action" or "Beat'Em'Ups" or "Fighting" or any silly word someone tasked with categorizing games might have put under the word "genre." Instead, think of it as something much more specific to the God of War/Devil May Cry experience.]

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

Do you know what straw man tactics are?
Essentially a straw man tactic is when someone takes something that's easy to attack or counter and attributes it to their opponent. Or perhaps more formally it's misrepresenting your opponent's position.

""You: OMG! GOW-III IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN DEVIL MAY CRY! I'M GOING TO NAME MY FIRST BORN SON KRATOS AND CAST YOU DOWN INTO A PIT OF DESPAIR FOR DARING TO SLANDER THE GOD OF WAR NAME.""

Aww, I'm sowwy, did I hurt your feelings so badly with my tongue-in-cheek comment in the capital letters above that anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to figure out wasn't meant to be taken seriously that you immediately fell back into "STRAW MAN! IT'S A STRAW MAN! MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!" mode?

Well, because you did take it seriously, you're already existing in a state of delusion. It wasn't meant to be interpreted as an argument, it was meant to be interpreted as a "you misread my message" wake up call. Therefore, to call it a Straw Man argument makes no sense because it wasn't even being used as an argument.

How about you look past your little tiny hurt ego and understand the message I was attempting to convey? I already explained it to you once. I know this because you've quoted where I explained it. My experiences with Shadow Skill on this thread remind me why I should not bother explaining it again.

It's my fault, really - I shouldn't have even bothered to reply to you. From your very first message, it's clear you're desperate to pick a fight, because you actually went out of your way to misread my original comment in such a way that you could try to interpret it as an invitation.

 

[shadow skill]

Are you serious? You have said that DMC, Bayonetta, GOW and Dante's Inferno are a genre unto themselves but you have yet to explain what specific elements they share that other games do not. No one knows what you are talking about. No one who actually researches things will understand why these games are not brawlers. Do you know why? Because you haven't actually described the elements, you have only said that they exist.

As far as straw man tactics go I've seen a lot better than that.

That's not a straw man tactic. It's an overenthusiastic expression of exasperation that you misinterpreted my message.

Which failed.

Granted, this shouldn't surprise me. As as been my experience of forums, if someone didn't bother to read and understand what I wrote the first time, they won't the second or subsequent times either.

The two games may be of the same genre but the similarities pretty much end there for the most part. And let's not forget that story and characters are important parts to factor in too. And a key word here is "seems". It would be nice if you could reserve passing judgement until after the game has actually been released and has had a chance to prove it's worth to the gaming community.

To clarify, the reason I mentioned Devil May Cry isn't because the game is better or worse than God Of War but rather because Devil May Cry did the genre first. [Edit: Lest we run into anybody else as thick as Shadow Skill, don't take the word "genre" as implying "Action" or "Beat'Em'Ups" or "Fighting" or any silly word someone tasked with categorizing games might have put under the word "genre." Instead, think of it as something much more specific to the God of War/Devil May Cry experience.]

Again, that you chose to interpret this as me judging anything is wrong. I'm guessing you're chomping at the bit to get back into some long gone Devil May Cry vrs God Of War thread. I've some bad news there:

[Jedi Wave] this is not the Devil May Cry vs God Of War post you are looking for.

Don't you think you ought to let people know just what the God of War/Devil May Cry experience is? What if they haven't played those games thoroughly?