lol, "a second job you have to pay for" hahaha that's what i was thinking about WOW hearing my friend describe his time with the game. guess it's a common theme in mmorpgs
Zero Punctuation: Eve Online
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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Eh, having a corporation to depend on cancels out the issue of Player Pirating in EVE Online. Just as well, most if not all Player Pirates are camping the vicinity of a jump gate in EVE, or are in the middle of an asteroid.
In both situations if you aren't prepared to jump away from said player, I can only laugh at you for not being ready for yet another MMO with open PvP.
In both situations if you aren't prepared to jump away from said player, I can only laugh at you for not being ready for yet another MMO with open PvP.
I've played EVE for close to three years, and while I agree that the game has it's quirks and problems, most of which Yahtzee touched on, that hasn't kept me from enjoying it. And to be certain, there ARE a large of number of dicks in it with no sportsmanship. My only response to that: Welcome to life.
I would also argue that you miss out on a lot of the content without teaming up with other players, and frankly, it is miserable and boring to play solo. With friends, it becomes much more interesting. They really need to work on that to help players get more immersed more quickly.
Now as to the bit about not being able to get out of your ship and walk around, well it is a SPACE game. And while I agree it would be a nice touch (and it is something they're working on) I'd prefer they add more content to the main universe.
That being said, I'm hardly surprised by Yahtzee's review. There are many games out there that I believe Yahtzee would enjoy, and I never for one minute thought that Eve would be one of them.
As always, its a matter of opinion.
I would also argue that you miss out on a lot of the content without teaming up with other players, and frankly, it is miserable and boring to play solo. With friends, it becomes much more interesting. They really need to work on that to help players get more immersed more quickly.
Now as to the bit about not being able to get out of your ship and walk around, well it is a SPACE game. And while I agree it would be a nice touch (and it is something they're working on) I'd prefer they add more content to the main universe.
That being said, I'm hardly surprised by Yahtzee's review. There are many games out there that I believe Yahtzee would enjoy, and I never for one minute thought that Eve would be one of them.
As always, its a matter of opinion.
God some people go on my nerves. Let's weed out some crap here.
1) YOU NEED TO SOCIALIZE!
Shut the fuck up, right now, and quick ( goes to those "vets" how they call them ). Socializing in a game? Am I a fucking emo kid? Jesus if I want to socialize, have fun and meet people then I go out with my friends, yes, REAL LIFE FRIENDS! Socializing on the internet is a big looser and majority of those are emos. If I play a game I want to have fun. Fun I can have with others... PoA for example or others. But wasting weeks over weeks talking to people while doing shit... sorry... my time is too valuable for that.
2) IT NEEDS SKILLZ!
My ass too. Whoever calls this a tactic if a mass of flies whittles down a cow should be punished and his computer locked away fro him. Let me tell you one thing: you know SHIT about real tactics in games. Such old backed and unimaginative attack patterns only show how much shit those games are. People degenerate into "dumb fuck mind mode" and start to think they are skilled. It's a typical disease of MMO players... and it seems to never cease.
3) 14DAYS ARE NOT ENOUGH YOU FUCKTARD! IT'S SO DEEEEEP!
"Looks into a plate"... You call this deep? You must be affected by time dilatation that you perception of narrow depth grow so wide ( if you don't know what this is, go learn a bit about relativity theory ). A game which requires the players to do all the imagination work to add any sense of depth to it and makes them pay for is not a game but a failed attempt at game design. Depth is produced by the game makers. Because if you want people to produce depth go play some DnD... much cheaper and you can fucking do what you want and what is fun. Also if a trial fails to tell you after 14 days that the game is worth it then the game is simply utter rubbish.
And finally: "veteran" opinions are usually worthless. This is because they fanboy with the game and try to defend it at any cost while shutting of their mind to the blatant truth. Yathzee stated he approached the game from the point of view of a "common player". This is also how I do it. I do not enter a game with "w00t" or "crap" but I just go in and look if it connects. Furthermore I use a list of parameters I judge a game by from a technical point of view but the first impression ( especially in the trial phase ) is important. It's like a job review. The first impression counts most. In this regard the game is a failure. So please you "vets" shut the fuck up. Sugar-talking games is not making them better just because of it.
1) YOU NEED TO SOCIALIZE!
Shut the fuck up, right now, and quick ( goes to those "vets" how they call them ). Socializing in a game? Am I a fucking emo kid? Jesus if I want to socialize, have fun and meet people then I go out with my friends, yes, REAL LIFE FRIENDS! Socializing on the internet is a big looser and majority of those are emos. If I play a game I want to have fun. Fun I can have with others... PoA for example or others. But wasting weeks over weeks talking to people while doing shit... sorry... my time is too valuable for that.
2) IT NEEDS SKILLZ!
My ass too. Whoever calls this a tactic if a mass of flies whittles down a cow should be punished and his computer locked away fro him. Let me tell you one thing: you know SHIT about real tactics in games. Such old backed and unimaginative attack patterns only show how much shit those games are. People degenerate into "dumb fuck mind mode" and start to think they are skilled. It's a typical disease of MMO players... and it seems to never cease.
3) 14DAYS ARE NOT ENOUGH YOU FUCKTARD! IT'S SO DEEEEEP!
"Looks into a plate"... You call this deep? You must be affected by time dilatation that you perception of narrow depth grow so wide ( if you don't know what this is, go learn a bit about relativity theory ). A game which requires the players to do all the imagination work to add any sense of depth to it and makes them pay for is not a game but a failed attempt at game design. Depth is produced by the game makers. Because if you want people to produce depth go play some DnD... much cheaper and you can fucking do what you want and what is fun. Also if a trial fails to tell you after 14 days that the game is worth it then the game is simply utter rubbish.
And finally: "veteran" opinions are usually worthless. This is because they fanboy with the game and try to defend it at any cost while shutting of their mind to the blatant truth. Yathzee stated he approached the game from the point of view of a "common player". This is also how I do it. I do not enter a game with "w00t" or "crap" but I just go in and look if it connects. Furthermore I use a list of parameters I judge a game by from a technical point of view but the first impression ( especially in the trial phase ) is important. It's like a job review. The first impression counts most. In this regard the game is a failure. So please you "vets" shut the fuck up. Sugar-talking games is not making them better just because of it.
As soon as he started ranting on how socializing on the internet is for emos on a forum based on an online magazine for gamers, I stopped reading.YYZed post=6.70442.693731 said:
Yahtzee, why am I not surprised that you have once again played a multiplayer game like its singleplayer only to be disappointed. Go review some simple console title you actually have some hope of wrapping your head around instead.
What confuses me is that the people who are smart enought to figure out when a game sucks are actualy the dummer people leaving the smarter people stil smart, but very dumb for playing such a boring piece of crap, but since they are dumb for that then dumb people would be considered smart, smart people would be considered dumb, but if smart is dumb then why is it wrong to dumb people who are actualy smart because they are wrong and dumb and the dumb and smart would be wright, but then where does that leave the average folk? Average?!
If you follow you are dumb and if you do not follow you are smart and I must be smart because this does not make any sense whitch means I am wrong but then if im smart im dumb.
*warning*- reading the following may cause massive head-ache.
If you follow you are dumb and if you do not follow you are smart and I must be smart because this does not make any sense whitch means I am wrong but then if im smart im dumb.
*warning*- reading the following may cause massive head-ache.
I am too one of the 14-day trial traumatized gang. I like complicated. I'm a scientist, I can deal with frustration over long periods of time and literally, have no fun on a regular basis. This is exactly the reason why I fled EVE. It is just as hard to achieve anything worthwhile as in real life, yet in the end it won't allow me to buy food, or go to the movies, buy a good book, or anything except perpetuate said activity. That is why it drains life, even if you let the computer auto-pilot hours to the next system or level up your skills offline. I gave up on playing EVE, but didn't forget EVE because it's just such an interesting beast.
EDIT: I for one agree that EVE is, without a doubt, NOT WoW in any way nor attempts to be. Yahtzee is totally wrong there (nevermind the fact that EVE came first).
As a game, EVE is an utter failure. A game, by definition, should be something that entertains, that amuses, that's in some ways stress-relieving. In other words, fun. Anything that, as veterans here have said, takes at least a MONTH to get to the good parts cannot be described as fun. It is more akin to training to get good at some sport or a martial art, or developing a skill like painting, than it is to playing. It is definately not a game, but something else marketed -wrongly- as a game. As a game reviewer, that is a person who expresses opinions about games, Yahtzee is completely spot on by describing the experience with the EVE trial as lousy. He played the 14-day trial, and that SHOULD be enough time for a person with other games in line that need reviewing to have an decent knowledge of what a game is like. It isnt' enough time for EVE, and will never be. Not even 21 days will be enough to get the gist, if I'm reading right. I'm not defending him. He did indeed miss out on the corps and therefore on the things that actually have made EVE what it is: an astounding simulation of human economy and politics. Yet, it's apparently also impossible to grasp these intricacies until you've been a player for a considerable amount of time, even when you are involved in PvP gameplay. If the point of the trial is for you to be able to extrapolate what the rest of the game will be like, then EVE fails, again. If the whole point of EVE is the Corps, and that is basically where all the fun is, then it shouldn't allow potential players to drift off where fun isn't at and not get them hooked. I too thought after my time "if this is how the rest of the game is going to be, screw this", and that is odd considering I fall squarely into the target audience.
I really wanted to like EVE. I'm a sci-fi fan, a gamer, and a geek. It's just too unwieldly and time intensive (not play time, but real-world time) to progress, that I just don't feel like paying my hard (and equally time-intensive) earned money on something that, honestly, resembles a job or an advanced college course than a hobby.
EDIT: I for one agree that EVE is, without a doubt, NOT WoW in any way nor attempts to be. Yahtzee is totally wrong there (nevermind the fact that EVE came first).
As a game, EVE is an utter failure. A game, by definition, should be something that entertains, that amuses, that's in some ways stress-relieving. In other words, fun. Anything that, as veterans here have said, takes at least a MONTH to get to the good parts cannot be described as fun. It is more akin to training to get good at some sport or a martial art, or developing a skill like painting, than it is to playing. It is definately not a game, but something else marketed -wrongly- as a game. As a game reviewer, that is a person who expresses opinions about games, Yahtzee is completely spot on by describing the experience with the EVE trial as lousy. He played the 14-day trial, and that SHOULD be enough time for a person with other games in line that need reviewing to have an decent knowledge of what a game is like. It isnt' enough time for EVE, and will never be. Not even 21 days will be enough to get the gist, if I'm reading right. I'm not defending him. He did indeed miss out on the corps and therefore on the things that actually have made EVE what it is: an astounding simulation of human economy and politics. Yet, it's apparently also impossible to grasp these intricacies until you've been a player for a considerable amount of time, even when you are involved in PvP gameplay. If the point of the trial is for you to be able to extrapolate what the rest of the game will be like, then EVE fails, again. If the whole point of EVE is the Corps, and that is basically where all the fun is, then it shouldn't allow potential players to drift off where fun isn't at and not get them hooked. I too thought after my time "if this is how the rest of the game is going to be, screw this", and that is odd considering I fall squarely into the target audience.
I really wanted to like EVE. I'm a sci-fi fan, a gamer, and a geek. It's just too unwieldly and time intensive (not play time, but real-world time) to progress, that I just don't feel like paying my hard (and equally time-intensive) earned money on something that, honestly, resembles a job or an advanced college course than a hobby.
What you have said is either brilliant or completely idiotic, as soon as I translate it into English I'll post and tell you.JOE COOL post=6.70442.693760 said:
To be serious for a moment.. He's ragged on Warcraft but you don't see me whining like an emo who lost his poetry book. EVE is what we call a polarizing game, you either absolutely hate it and everything about the bloody thing or you love it and want to devote yourself to finding proper ways to worship the people who make it. Why is it polarizing? It is not only hard to learn, it hostile in how hard it is to get into. Its for those hardcore of hardcore people who get wood over spreadsheets and math about their ship and and can do all this while in a PvP War and negotiating the trade of Han Solo in Carbonite.
As far as the whole WoW vs EVE debate goes...
EVE was released 2001, so yeah preceeds WoW by a few years.
EVE and WoW while sure are both MMO Games, they couldn't be more bloody different if the developers were even trying to be.
Neither is even trying to be even remotely like the other.
WoW are for short-attention span people who get easily hooked by the next shiney object in their path.
EVE on the other hand requires intelligence, and patience.
While I guess you could equate this to as Zahtzee said, "a game that doesn't want to be played" ... really what he should've said is that it is a game that doesn't require you to always play it to feel like you're achieving something.
A good example is while yes, I play EVE (actually log-in and play) for a few hours every week or so. I know that each time I do choose to log-in, often a new skill has just been completed and I can fly that new ship I wanted to... or equip some new stuff to my current ship(s) that gives them better chance in battle, or better for scavanging or just quicker at mining. It also is a nice peace of mind knowing that I can leave it for a week or so at a time, knowing that just because I didn't have the time to play due to a social life (sorry WoW players but other guild member helping on instanced quests does not count as a social life) doesn't mean that my character will suffer for this.
It's true that WoW has 12million players, while EVE Online only has 250,000-ish .. a huge difference is that when you're playing despite being much larger game, EVE never really feels like there aren't many people playing. There are always people online, some of them assholes, some of them (like myself) are often quite nice to new players helping them out financially or giving them equippment.
Actually funny story about that is I had left a Battleship (Rokh, fairly powerful PvP ship quite good for traveling in low-security systems with minimal police presence) in a part of space that would've taken me the better part of 40-50minutes to get to. So instead in the system-wide chat channel, I asked if anyone could be bothered to fly there I'd give it to them; simply to get rid of it. Someone jumped at the chance given it's worth around 30million in-game credits, which to new players is ALOT. Once you've got fairly established though it only takes a few days to earn (if that sometimes, depends on what you do).
I wouldn't say you'd always get lucky like that, but it happens from time to time. It's certainly not a rare sight to see newbies being given a million or so simply cause a longer-standing player feels like it. It is nice though that some people help you out like that.
Of course there is the flipside of players who just enjoy toying with newbies whenever they get outside of the safezones. With a war currently on between the nations, this also makes playing a bit more interesting.
Still there's quite a bit more to EVE beyond the surface, which is extremely different to current MMOGs. Corporations for example, you have the choice to run them (or join one) that is simply a clan; or one that has true in-game business aspirations... or maybe you want to join one that happens to own large portions of "freespace".
That is something truely interesting that after a month or two of play, often if you're playing with friends you can earn enough and get enough experience to attempt to make you're own space structures and lay claim to areas of low-sec systems or even try to claim the whole system.
There is current one corporation who last time I checked had nearly 30,000 members and owned basically 40% of the space outside of the core factions. Also happen to be the biggest pirate corporation reknown for solving their problems by simply starting a Corporate War, which in EVE generally doesn't mean buy-outs via stocks or putting another out of business financially but literally killing off members of that corporation (often taking prizes too... it's good fun to do sometimes).
While EVE may not be a hugely fast paced game, and it's depth might feel very overwhelming... it's UI is fairly iffy at times, and combat might deceptively seem like "bigger guns = you win a fight" (which btw, not true. I've seen some truely skilled pilots take out ships 2-3x better on paper with ease) ... it has it's moments.
When you experience one of those moments, trust me. You get hooked. The only thing I really wish is that it was a little more like the title that inspired it, Elite. Still it does have aspects for nearly every sort of player, just is a case of finding them and realising; You're not actually there alone in the universe.
EVE was released 2001, so yeah preceeds WoW by a few years.
EVE and WoW while sure are both MMO Games, they couldn't be more bloody different if the developers were even trying to be.
Neither is even trying to be even remotely like the other.
WoW are for short-attention span people who get easily hooked by the next shiney object in their path.
EVE on the other hand requires intelligence, and patience.
While I guess you could equate this to as Zahtzee said, "a game that doesn't want to be played" ... really what he should've said is that it is a game that doesn't require you to always play it to feel like you're achieving something.
A good example is while yes, I play EVE (actually log-in and play) for a few hours every week or so. I know that each time I do choose to log-in, often a new skill has just been completed and I can fly that new ship I wanted to... or equip some new stuff to my current ship(s) that gives them better chance in battle, or better for scavanging or just quicker at mining. It also is a nice peace of mind knowing that I can leave it for a week or so at a time, knowing that just because I didn't have the time to play due to a social life (sorry WoW players but other guild member helping on instanced quests does not count as a social life) doesn't mean that my character will suffer for this.
It's true that WoW has 12million players, while EVE Online only has 250,000-ish .. a huge difference is that when you're playing despite being much larger game, EVE never really feels like there aren't many people playing. There are always people online, some of them assholes, some of them (like myself) are often quite nice to new players helping them out financially or giving them equippment.
Actually funny story about that is I had left a Battleship (Rokh, fairly powerful PvP ship quite good for traveling in low-security systems with minimal police presence) in a part of space that would've taken me the better part of 40-50minutes to get to. So instead in the system-wide chat channel, I asked if anyone could be bothered to fly there I'd give it to them; simply to get rid of it. Someone jumped at the chance given it's worth around 30million in-game credits, which to new players is ALOT. Once you've got fairly established though it only takes a few days to earn (if that sometimes, depends on what you do).
I wouldn't say you'd always get lucky like that, but it happens from time to time. It's certainly not a rare sight to see newbies being given a million or so simply cause a longer-standing player feels like it. It is nice though that some people help you out like that.
Of course there is the flipside of players who just enjoy toying with newbies whenever they get outside of the safezones. With a war currently on between the nations, this also makes playing a bit more interesting.
Still there's quite a bit more to EVE beyond the surface, which is extremely different to current MMOGs. Corporations for example, you have the choice to run them (or join one) that is simply a clan; or one that has true in-game business aspirations... or maybe you want to join one that happens to own large portions of "freespace".
That is something truely interesting that after a month or two of play, often if you're playing with friends you can earn enough and get enough experience to attempt to make you're own space structures and lay claim to areas of low-sec systems or even try to claim the whole system.
There is current one corporation who last time I checked had nearly 30,000 members and owned basically 40% of the space outside of the core factions. Also happen to be the biggest pirate corporation reknown for solving their problems by simply starting a Corporate War, which in EVE generally doesn't mean buy-outs via stocks or putting another out of business financially but literally killing off members of that corporation (often taking prizes too... it's good fun to do sometimes).
While EVE may not be a hugely fast paced game, and it's depth might feel very overwhelming... it's UI is fairly iffy at times, and combat might deceptively seem like "bigger guns = you win a fight" (which btw, not true. I've seen some truely skilled pilots take out ships 2-3x better on paper with ease) ... it has it's moments.
When you experience one of those moments, trust me. You get hooked. The only thing I really wish is that it was a little more like the title that inspired it, Elite. Still it does have aspects for nearly every sort of player, just is a case of finding them and realising; You're not actually there alone in the universe.
For you, and people like you and Ben whom I think will never read this post, but one can hope...gasto post=6.70442.693783 said:
I suggest this game http://www.cityofheroes.com/trial/index.html
I don't personally play it but its user friendly, unique, easy to get into, easy to learn, and there is nothing in this game that will confuse you. Its what games were designed to be, fun. There was even a post a year or so ago about someone who's four year old daughter who had learned to play this game.
Ah City of Heroes / Villains... A fantastic set of games they are. What World of Warcraft wishes it would've been. GOOD. Hah. The same guys who are making the Star Trek Online MMO.
EVE Online really is a fantastic place and it's BECAUSE it has a playerbase of a couple hundred-thousand players that it's such a great game. We're talking >1 players per cluster of five sectors in EVE. WoW is like... <1 thousand players per square foot. Pathetic...
EVE Online really is a fantastic place and it's BECAUSE it has a playerbase of a couple hundred-thousand players that it's such a great game. We're talking >1 players per cluster of five sectors in EVE. WoW is like... <1 thousand players per square foot. Pathetic...
EVE = Eccentrics Version of Excel
I too could not last the 14 days, nor could I get into the "skill up while you sleep" concept. However it does have a loyal and vibrant player base and despite 95% of the gamer population finding many EVE concepts obtuse, that 5% should still be recognized and not beat into the ground like some sort of low-life cult club.
We all have different tastes, possibly Yahtzee should approach his cynical reviews (which are funny and enjoyable) with just a little bit more objectivity and judge the game in the setting of its genre and market demographic, not in the setting of his personal "I hate MMO" mindset. It would be like me reviewing sports and fighting games - 2 genres I can't stand - hence my reviews would be far too negative to be useful.
I too could not last the 14 days, nor could I get into the "skill up while you sleep" concept. However it does have a loyal and vibrant player base and despite 95% of the gamer population finding many EVE concepts obtuse, that 5% should still be recognized and not beat into the ground like some sort of low-life cult club.
We all have different tastes, possibly Yahtzee should approach his cynical reviews (which are funny and enjoyable) with just a little bit more objectivity and judge the game in the setting of its genre and market demographic, not in the setting of his personal "I hate MMO" mindset. It would be like me reviewing sports and fighting games - 2 genres I can't stand - hence my reviews would be far too negative to be useful.