Zero Punctuation: Final Fantasy XIII

[thublihnk]

I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sometimes there's not good points to be gleaned from a piece of art. There are some things that are so truly terrible that there are no good things to say about it, and you can't just shoehorn in some shit about how the soundtrack was good-or-whatever to make it unbiased. That's just stupid.

And furthermore, unless there was some cataclysmic event 6 hours into the game that completely turned it on its head and made for an entirely different experience then yeah he's fair in turning the game off and reviewing--as he said--the first 5 hours. He didn't judge the last however many hours, he just judged the first 5, and the back end probably aren't terribly better.

Oh, and no a story doesn't need to start slow and boring, nor should it. Ever. /EVER/. Do you get me? It's called drawing the reader/viewer/player into the story. You start out establishing your main character, then you introduce the conflict. If the main character is boring, then yes, the beginning is going to be boring. And so is the rest of the story.

 

[ragnawind]

I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sometimes there's not good points to be gleaned from a piece of art. There are some things that are so truly terrible that there are no good things to say about it, and you can't just shoehorn in some shit about how the soundtrack was good-or-whatever to make it unbiased. That's just stupid.

And furthermore, unless there was some cataclysmic event 6 hours into the game that completely turned it on its head and made for an entirely different experience then yeah he's fair in turning the game off and reviewing--as he said--the first 5 hours. He didn't judge the last however many hours, he just judged the first 5, and the back end probably aren't terribly better.

Oh, and no a story doesn't need to start slow and boring, nor should it. Ever. /EVER/. Do you get me? It's called drawing the reader/viewer/player into the story. You start out establishing your main character, then you introduce the conflict. If the main character is boring, then yes, the beginning is going to be boring. And so is the rest of the story.

That is a biased comment, right there. What I just said is cold-hard-fact, not just opinion. No matter What, there is always good and always bad about something. There is no denying it. In the end, it is all personal opinion. You people are just bashing the game, because you don't understand how the system works. No matter what you watch, play, etc., it ALWAYS starts slow. There is no way around it without starting in the middle, which isn't really a good place to start something.

Meaning of the word bias: Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective. In other words, bias is generally seen as a 'one-sided' perspective. The term biased refers to a person or group who is judged to exhibit bias. It is used to describe an attitude, judgment, or behavior that is influenced by a prejudice. Bias can be unconscious or conscious in awareness. Having a bias is part of a normal development. Labeling someone as biased in some regard implies they need a greater or more flexible perspective in that area, or that they need to consider more deeply the context.

 

[thublihnk]

I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sometimes there's not good points to be gleaned from a piece of art. There are some things that are so truly terrible that there are no good things to say about it, and you can't just shoehorn in some shit about how the soundtrack was good-or-whatever to make it unbiased. That's just stupid.

And furthermore, unless there was some cataclysmic event 6 hours into the game that completely turned it on its head and made for an entirely different experience then yeah he's fair in turning the game off and reviewing--as he said--the first 5 hours. He didn't judge the last however many hours, he just judged the first 5, and the back end probably aren't terribly better.

Oh, and no a story doesn't need to start slow and boring, nor should it. Ever. /EVER/. Do you get me? It's called drawing the reader/viewer/player into the story. You start out establishing your main character, then you introduce the conflict. If the main character is boring, then yes, the beginning is going to be boring. And so is the rest of the story.

That is a biased comment, right there. What I just said is cold-hard-fact, not just opinion. No matter What, there is always good and always bad about something. There is no denying it. In the end, it is all personal opinion. You people are just bashing the game, because you don't understand how the system works. No matter what you watch, play, etc., it ALWAYS starts slow. There is no way around it without starting in the middle, which isn't really a good place to start something.

Meaning of the word bias: Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective. In other words, bias is generally seen as a 'one-sided' perspective. The term biased refers to a person or group who is judged to exhibit bias. It is used to describe an attitude, judgment, or behavior that is influenced by a prejudice. Bias can be unconscious or conscious in awareness. Having a bias is part of a normal development. Labeling someone as biased in some regard implies they need a greater or more flexible perspective in that area, or that they need to consider more deeply the context.

Oh no no no, you misunderstood what I said. Key word: BORING. FF games as of late start out BORING. Stories can start slow and still be interesting, they can't start out boring though. If a storyteller establishes the character in an interesting but calm, slow way I'm down. I'm in for the rest of the game. But if they introduce a shallow and uninteresting character in an uninteresting way, I'm probably going to give up on the game a lot sooner than 5 hours.
By your standards, anyone who just flat doesn't like a particular game for no reason other than its quality is bias-- the only people who aren't bias are the ones who have nice things to say about it. Makes perfect sense.
And there are not always good and bad things about everything, nor is there a need to point out the good and bad things in everything. See, what you're thinking of is, say, a summary. Someone sitting down and stating the features of the game. What Yahtzee is doing, and all he's ever claimed to do, is have an opinion and argue for it. He makes points that strengthen his argument for the quality of a game, be it good or bad.
It's the basis of making an argument. A critical opinion. Again, just stating 'oh, I guess the soundtrack was pretty good' doesn't magically make someones opinions more valid, nor does its omission make said opinion any less valid.

EDIT: If you want to find a critic without bias, I suggest you look beyond the limitations of human writing ability-- bias is a human condition, not just something you can magic away by thinking real hard. You're biased, I'm biased, we're all biased. Bitching about it is like bitching about the sun.

 

[batosai33]

what, no comment on how the characters names sound like spin-offs of captain planet? Snow, Lightning, Hope, by your powers combined, i am Lieutenant World!

 

[Primus1985]

*snip*

Guess what, I played Fallout 3 and I loved it, I played Dragon Age and I loved it and I played Mass Effect and...it's ok, not really as good as I expected, but still good. You are right about me being a big fan of Final Fantasy, and I feel there's no reason to deny that. Still, I'm quite willing to call out Square when they do bad. (FFX-2, anyone?)

That having been said, you are indeed labeling me a "fanboy" for finding fault with Yahtzee's review. Which is exactly what I mentioned in the post you replied to. And I really don't care if you, Yahtzee or anyone else dislikes a game that I enjoy. But, as I've stated, playing 5% of a game that he crafted an opinion about 3 years before it was released, and then publicly decrying it for the sole purpose of angering fans of the series, while blatantly espousing that his opinion is divine providence doesn't qualify as a review. It doesn't qualify as criticism, either. What it is, is trolling. Trolling on an incredibly large scale.

Also, the fact that you disagree with my opinion does not make it trolling. And that is what I have and always will do here, state my opinion. Your distaste for my opinion does not qualify it for "moderator wrath".

Actually I was eagerly anticipating FF13 thinking they evolved the series, Wrong. Yahtzee, who has probably played more games than either of us, noticed this right on. When you play games for a living and are given a game that you've played before and know what's going to happen their's really no point. Which is kinda what he's saying.

One more thing. I didnt have a problem with your opinion, everyone has that right, I took offense to you saying Yahtzee is as biased as Rosie O'Donnel is human: A, She is human so your insult made no sense. B, their are other ways to get your point across than insulting others.

 

[Regiment]

Isn't it clear enough already that Yahtzee isn't a serious critic? He's a comedian, people! He reviews games to entertain, and he will generalize, overlook, misinterpret, and hold prejudices if it makes the review funnier. You can't get mad at him for hyper-criticizing a game. That's his thing. Criticizing that would be like criticizing a car for driving places. That's what it does, and more importantly that's what it's designed to do.

(Maybe it's just me, but I actually find the videos where he attacks games I like to be the funniest sometimes)

 

[Caprice0083]

Shut Up I Am! BWHAHAHA

 

[AlternatePFG]

I played about maybe up to 20 hours into this game maybe? When they finally let you go off the path for awhile it's nice, but still I stopped playing anyways. The battles just seemed to drag on too long from there.

 

[Nocturnal Gentleman]

what, no comment on how the characters names sound like spin-offs of captain planet? Snow, Lightning, Hope, by your powers combined, i am Lieutenant World!

Haha I definitely would have never thought of that. I have to give you applause for this it actually made me see the characters in a way that was enjoyable. Just the image of them all jumping in with their little rings raised proudly in the air as they summon a man creature with a hilariously corny theme song is priceless.

 

[Astralpulse]

Not acceptable to you, maybe. But that says nothing about it except that you didn't have the patience to stick with it. And even if it is, Yahtzee is paid (I assume) to review games. It is NOT too much to ask to have said reviewer play the entire game before posting up a lot of hate-filled bilge online. Some of his points are correct, but others are disingenous, and he'd know why had he finished it. The Escapist's other review of FFXIII is far more balanced and truthful, if less amusing then this.

Why is this? Because they bothered to actually stick with it and play the game to the end. Now, if you or I were doing it that might be a bit much to ask, but for a professional job it's lazy at best and shocking at worst. If a movie critic watched the first half an hour of a film and wrote his review based on that he'd be ridiculed, and rightly so. Same logic applies here.

I personally found the story easy to get a grip on, and I'm really not getting the hate on this Datalog business. The game is giving you more information then you need, for those who want to know more about the world and its characters, in an easy to find, simple, and completely optional format. What's not to like? It's not like you wouldn't understand anything if you didn't read them.

I finished the game. I even tried to make this fairly obvious by hinting at what happened at the ending within my post, you know, "lolcrystals". I went through most of the post-game, but didn't bother with all of it since Treasure Hunter would take way too long for my tastes. Having viewed the whole game and read all of the data logs, I can easily say the story is very bland and reeks too much like a drama for my tastes.

I digress, however, so to return to the point:

Datalogs are not an acceptable way to give story information for a video game. Let me be very clear about that; video game. Games are supposed to be interactive story telling, interactive meaning the player is involved with making it progress in a sensible fashion. I don't consider reading walls of text to be interactive.

You could compare datalogs to FMVs in other games, however, FMVs rarely account for 80% of the story in most other titles. You could also try to compare this to characters talking in other games, as that is reading text as well, but I don't have to pause the game and disconnect myself from it in order to do so. The game keeps flowing right along with the characters talking, something that doesn't occur with the datalogs.

Let me try to put this another way. In Metroid Prime, a great deal of the "story," came across by scanning objects and reading the information related to them. "Oh! That's quite similar to this!" you might add. It is not, however. In the Prime games, this was relevant to the story, it fit. Her suit scanned and analyzed the object, spit out data, and we read Samus' thoughts on that data. It fit the gameplay, it fit the universe.

In FFXIII, we are given a magical journal to neatly summarize everything that's occurred. A journal which is never made reference to in gameplay, it just 'exists.' This does not fit the gameplay, it is not gameplay. It is a book within a game. I do not find this acceptable. Hell, even in Kingdom Hearts, the journal that helped explain story data fit because Jiminy Cricket was right alongside you writing it.

Any evidence to back up this blanket statement? Or are you saying "I didn't like them, so they sucked!"? Sazh is the best character, I agree, but I liked Snow, Fang, and Lightning personally. Hope starts off whiny but gets better over time, and even Vanille grows on the player. None of them are terrible, and all of them go through character development provided you don't abandon the game. None of them are perfectly likeable, but that's realistic. If I ever met Snow, I'd probably punch him too, but that doesn't mean he's a terrible character- quite the opposite. Realism is part of what makes a good character.

Snow spends the entire game, minus about 3 minutes of bawwwing, with a puffed out chest trying to act like, "the hero." It gets tiresome within the first few minutes of seeing it, and never goes away.

I simply hate Fang. I can't quite pin down why, but basically everything about her just makes me want to choke her. She just gets under my skin for some reason.

Lightning is a stubborn, blind asshole of a character for the first quarter of the game, which immediately detracted a lot of points from her. "Oh, but she'll get better later!" She never really does. She loses the blind part after Odin, but she still remains a stubborn asshole for the most part.

Vanille... Vanille ... Vanille. I ... cannot stand her voice. Beyond that, she's way too cheerful. "No no, but she's just masking her real emotions with that!" Ok. So? Forced or not, she has way too much of a bubbly attitude. Combined with her voice making me annoyed, I just could not ever like her.

Don't even get me started on Hope. Just ... ugh.

One, I am not a regular on here. Two, I have read other reviews, and though most of them do point out some of the same flaws that ZP does, most of them at least go to the effort to point out the good parts, too. That's part of what makes a critic as opposed to simply someone who plays a bit of the game and declares it terrible- which is, ironically, exactly what ZP's done here. I'm not saying some of these complaints aren't valid, because they are. I'm saying the review is lazy and because of that it paints an misleading picture of how bad the game is. Again, he stuck with Heavy Rain despite being even more disconnected from the game then with FFXIII, and was able to point out that getting better over time was a redeeming point. The exact same is true of FFXIII, but he doesn't do the same here because he's not given it a fair review.

I can agree it paints a misleading picture and even basically stated so. I'm not entirely sure why you had to post this. I very clearly stated he is biased against JRPGs, and that you should read other reviews. Regardless what else I posted, that alone is all you needed to know about his video.

I still loved how he killed Vanille. I hope he does it more.

 

[ragnawind]

Isn't it clear enough already that Yahtzee isn't a serious critic? He's a comedian, people! He reviews games to entertain, and he will generalize, overlook, misinterpret, and hold prejudices if it makes the review funnier. You can't get mad at him for hyper-criticizing a game. That's his thing. Criticizing that would be like criticizing a car for driving places. That's what it does, and more importantly that's what it's designed to do.

(Maybe it's just me, but I actually find the videos where he attacks games I like to be the funniest sometimes)

He states in the video that he is a professional when it comes to reviewing, but the way he gave it, is very unprofessional. Reviews aren't supposed to be made funny, they are supposed to contain fact and opinion about the game.

 

[sigma83]

'No matter What, there is always good and always bad about something. There is no denying it. In the end, it is all personal opinion.'

I agree to the extent that 'At least she's trying her best!' is 'something good'. Bad writing is still bad writing. Poor grasp of dramatic structure, unwieldy exposition, can combine to create a bad narrative experience.

There is such a thing as being just... bad. Most of that is relative. Twilight would be amazing if it were the only book on earth.

'I have read other reviews, and though most of them do point out some of the same flaws that ZP does, most of them at least go to the effort to point out the good parts, too. That's part of what makes a critic...'

A critic's job is to convey to his audience whether or not THEY will enjoy the product. Yahtzee himself has stated, however, that ZP is not about hearing what is good about a game. His reviews do not exist in a void, they fill a very specific (and popular) niche. Claims to objectivity need not apply.

 

[sigma83]

Isn't it clear enough already that Yahtzee isn't a serious critic? He's a comedian, people! He reviews games to entertain, and he will generalize, overlook, misinterpret, and hold prejudices if it makes the review funnier. You can't get mad at him for hyper-criticizing a game. That's his thing. Criticizing that would be like criticizing a car for driving places. That's what it does, and more importantly that's what it's designed to do.

(Maybe it's just me, but I actually find the videos where he attacks games I like to be the funniest sometimes)

He states in the video that he is a professional when it comes to reviewing, but the way he gave it, is very unprofessional. Reviews aren't supposed to be made funny, they are supposed to contain fact and opinion about the game.

I think your dissonance stems from being used to having reviewers treat games with kid gloves. 'The writing isn't the best but the graphics are really pretty!'

When you say 'Reviews aren't supposed to be made funny', what I'm getting is that you don't like how Yahtzee focuses on tearing games a new one for the sake of humor. The thing is that style is entirely personal and extremely subjective. Even in a traditional style review the tone of voice can be utterly different across different writers. See Eurogamer or Rockpapershotgun for good examples of quirk.

As I said earlier, Zero Punctuation does not exist in a void. The traditional reviews still exist. He's part of the criticism landscape. I've read reviews, Roger Ebert's E.T. review comes to mind, based entirely on a conceit. In the case of the E.T. review, it was in the form of a letter to his niece. Shortest movie review in history, for the film Isn't it Romantic? 'No.'

Yahtzee does give 'fact and opinion' about his review subjects. He states the facts (It's Final Fantasy, with all the connotations that brings) as well as his opinion (it sucks, I didn't bother). You're of course free to disagree with them and of course free to enjoy whatever games you want. If you genuinely had fun with FF13, good for you. Your life was enriched by a videogame, how is this a bad thing?

 

[Regiment]

Isn't it clear enough already that Yahtzee isn't a serious critic? He's a comedian, people! He reviews games to entertain, and he will generalize, overlook, misinterpret, and hold prejudices if it makes the review funnier. You can't get mad at him for hyper-criticizing a game. That's his thing. Criticizing that would be like criticizing a car for driving places. That's what it does, and more importantly that's what it's designed to do.

(Maybe it's just me, but I actually find the videos where he attacks games I like to be the funniest sometimes)

He states in the video that he is a professional when it comes to reviewing, but the way he gave it, is very unprofessional. Reviews aren't supposed to be made funny, they are supposed to contain fact and opinion about the game.

It's a joke! It's sarcasm! It's a comedy video! It shouldn't be taken seriously! It's possibly one valid argument swimming in a five minute sea of insults!

That's what he is: an insult comic. Not a reviewer, not a serious critic, not a salmon, but an insult comic.

 

[Charles Lupula]

As someone who loves Final Fantasy XIII and can't wait to go back and complete all the side missions on Gran Pulse, I still found Yahtzee's review funny. Do you people actually look at him as a credible review source? He's a comedian, first and foremost, as far as I've seen. I can't believe people are actually getting upset about this. So he didn't like it and didn't finish it? Is the world going to end? There are a lot of games I love that he hated. I still watch his stuff. The guy's funny. Stop taking everything so seriously.

 

[ragnawind]

I thought the video was pretty funny, but it isn't right to destroy a game in a so-called review. Some people don't actually realize that it is meant to be funny and not to be taken seriously. It shouldn't even be called a review at all. Also, you shouldn't even try to make a review for something you don't even like, even if it isn't meant to be a review at all, but has it labeled as a review.

 

[Charles Lupula]

All one has to do is just check out any of his other reviews to see what his shtick is. This isn't misleading anyone. And even if they think of him as a real reviewer, why should it matter to people what he says if they love the game already? I absolutely hated Final Fantasy XII and every critic out there got an erection from it. Didn't change my life any. I absolutely love Godhand. Go check out the Metacritic scores for that. Didn't change my opinion any.

Personally, I think XIII is the best of the series, but if someone disagrees, that's their right. If someone wants to write a comical review of it, that's also their right. All you have to do is check out some of his other reviews. Eventually, you should get the joke.

 

[Enigmers]

I didn't realize people took Yahtzee's reviews quite so seriously, especially because he comically dislikes games for a living to begin with.

 

[richtaur]

I feel exactly the same way about Final Fantasy games. I was in love with 1, 2/4 and 3/6 ... 7 was OK ... and fuck the rest. End of story!