Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

[Fire Daemon]

Yahtzee claimed the bad writing on Fullyramblomatic by claiming that the scene wherein Raiden is reunited with his faithful wife, serving almost as a reward for all his work - for Snake, for EVA, for the good of mankind - is indicative of a poor writing style. No comment.

THE PATRIOTS!

I must applaud you guys, 22 pages already is quite impressive.

 

[fundude365]

I'd say this shit is becoming somewhat bananas... some of us like MGS4, some of us don't and some of us, myself included, wish Hideo Kojima would insert his head up the anus of the nearest donkey... I guess some conflicts will never be resolved, especially on Internet forums.

 

[Roffey123]

Mailbag...showdown...sense...tingling....

 

[Jack Sheehan]

I'd love another mailbag showdown personally, the last one was the funniest video in ages.

 

[Jumplion]

Yahtzee claimed the bad writing on Fullyramblomatic by claiming that the scene wherein Raiden is reunited with his faithful wife, serving almost as a reward for all his work - for Snake, for EVA, for the good of mankind - is indicative of a poor writing style. No comment.

THE PATRIOTS!

So, the idea that a greatly powerful shadow organisation might just use a mans Wife and child to manipulate him into working for them, when they were already in his head, when they already did it to great success, is bad writing? Huh?

I can't believe Yahtzee emphasized the Patriots angle more than the decyborgification. I suppose at this point in the series we've all just automatically accepted that anything that's implausible can be explained with the phrase "nano machines did it" and we move on.

YES, now you understand. I still don't get why you emphasized MGS having bad writing just because it was set in an ALTERNATe reality...or maybe it is our own reality with the Patriots covering it all up. After all, they have done it before....THE PATRIOTS DID IT!

 

[Tempdude0]

I'm fairly sure that he was referring to it as a catchall. In other words, take anything not clearly explained in Star Wars and it's "uh...the Force, lol." and in this game it's "Uh...Nanomachines did it, lol" As it stands, catchalls aren't exactly the bees knees when it comes to writing because it leaves room for the writer to get exceedingly lazy in their explanations.

For the record, I don't believe anyone said it had bad writing based on it being in another reality, they said it had bad writing wholly based on the merits and flaws of the writings themselves, hence the lack of comments about cyborgs and crazy people with powers not existing. We accept that there's a reasonable level of unbelievability. Since the world is set up to run as though these things exist we excuse them. It's when things go beyond suspension of disbelief that issues arise. Take the Superman movie. Spoilers if you haven't seen it.

"Alright, we've got a guy who's super strong, can fly, has LAZER EYES! and is nigh invulnerable. He can do this because he's a Kryptonian, an alien, and he gains these amazing abilities from our sun. His weakness is kryptonite. It saps his strength and makes him loose all superhuman abilities. How much there is can affect how fast it works as well. The more there is, the faster it works."

"Alright, I guess I can work with that...But here he's lifting an island riddled with kryptonite, some of the crystals being larger than his body, and flying it off the planet. I thought it weakened him."

"Well, it does...But not this time."

"Why?"

"Uh...Kryponian, lol."

 

[GlenRice41]

I'd almost be disappointed if this did not lead to a mailbag showdown 2. Still seems like people get to anal when Reviewers knock their game... lol

 

[VeryOblivious]

Star War science may have been unbelievably stupid, but we can always say that it makes sense in a weird way because it's a galaxy far away. The Star Wars universe operates differently than ours, they could have talking gerbils who command the forces of nature and Star Wars fans would consider it canon.

And I supposse that a parallel universe similar to our own is totally impossible, because it ignores the fundamental laws of MsSpencer82.

I'd almost be disappointed if this did not lead to a mailbag showdown 2. Still seems like people get to anal when Reviewers knock their game... lol

I'm not sure if Yahtzee will ever do a mailbag showdown 2. There are some stupid pro-MGS4 answers in this thread, but they aren't as numerous as those in the SSBB's thread. Either way, he could take advantage, make a video about it and get his paycheck, without actually answer any valid answer here.

 

[VeryOblivious]

[I can't believe Yahtzee emphasized the Patriots angle more than the decyborgification. I suppose at this point in the series we've all just automatically accepted that anything that's implausible can be explained with the phrase "nano machines did it" and we move on.

I don't see any relation between "decyborgification" and "nanomachines". Are you sure you're being critical and not just a little bitchy and childish?

 

[TerraMGP]

The thing I find funny about catchalls is that they ALWAYS appear in sci-fi, always. Its more a matter of how obvious they are. A good example is star wars. The force is not the catchall most people think it is, they have a setup for how sabers would work and how hyperspace would work and so on, its just the whole "Well, its far more advanced" thing. Its the setting that happens in a futuristic era. In a way each bit of tech lends itself to helping justify the others. "Well they can repel away from a planets gravitational pull, so I can't imagine putting a cage around some plasma would be that hard" and so on. Problem is that for some people its just easier to see that more futuristic setting and accept the physics defying tech as OK because it seems so far away. MGS is set more in the here and now and as such it seems too close to home for some people to really accept that things may be diffrent. But that is why its fiction. Its all fantasy and you have to go into any work of fantasy with the mindset of 'well this is not real and you have to give it some leeway because of that when reading'. Truth is that any work of Sci-Fi is going to break the bonds of normalcy or else its not Sci-Fi. Having tech that may be impossible or highly improbable with what we know now is kind of the point regardless of what Era it is set in. MGS series is no more or less guilty of that than anything else, and the lack of understanding of genetics is no worse than, say, the lack of understanding for physics in most Star trek series.

Spot on about the exposition-heavy writing style. Sadly, a lot of anime suffers from this, as anyone who's seen Ghost In The Shell or Appleseed will know. XXX yawnography.

Both of those anime were, in my opinion, brilliant. Its far more complex and interesting than the sitcom-style everything is always resolved easy to swollow fluff cartoons we usually get stateside. People need to stop mistaking their own dislike for more dry and complex writing as bad writing.

 

[VeryOblivious]

It all depends on whether hes arrogant enough to ignore the valid points being raised here and if he's just going to make up poorly spelled defences of MGS4 with no merit and claim they were actually sent to him, and that they were indicative of the rest, or if he's planning on doing a second review, in which he recounts all the incredibly sweet stuff he didn't talk about.

Reading the last update in FullyRamblomatic, I don't think he'll make a second review. "I'm not even going to explain why that shit pisses me off".

 

[Tempdude0]

Enders Game. There, a series with no catchalls, and as far as the "it's more advanced thing" they don't use that as often as you think. Have you read much of the expanded universe? The lightsabers aren't even plasma, I just said that because it's what they would realistically be, not KILLER LIGHT that inexplicably ends. Even ignoring that, all you're saying is that it falls victim to the same crappy writing that other series fall to. A catchall is NEVER a good thing...Regardless, my points have, once again, been ignored in leu of talking about something random only tangentially related. Not only that but...Wait, Star Trek physics? Aside from the first season they've attempted to at least be as close to correct as possible. Hell, they're anal retentive in that department. At least pick your references better, oye.

Also, and I hate to agree with Mr. "absence of logic" up there, but both Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed were well done. I can't say anything about the recent Appleseed, but as far as Gits and the first Appleseed are concerned they've both got the ability to tell an intricate plot similar to that of the MGS series. That said, at least Ghost in the Shell falls victim to similar problems that plagued the Metal Gear line. Exposition got over the top long at times and it required you to stretch your suspension of disbelief to some pretty absurd levels when concerning the laughing man. Despite this, boredom was never an issue and most dialog was important as opposed to "fluff that'd be nice to know but why dear god are you bringing it up now?"

To VeryOblivious, I'd have to agree. I doubt he'd make another review on this. With SSBB, the fans were rabid but most of the issues come down to personal opinion. If you don't like the controles or the characters seem to small or what have you, nothing can change that. It can't be explained away. There isn't any deus ex machina when it comes to gameplay problems. The MGS series has issues that can be pointed out that are objective. You can like something and still realize something has issues, but this isn't one of those cases. People who love the game can't be arsed to at least admit it has issues. Hell, as a fan of Kingdom Hearts, the Eragon book series, and numerous other "things with problems" I fail to see why they NEED it to be so awesome. Shit, why does your enjoyment need to be backed by THIS IS AWESOME AND HAS NO FLAWS! Why not just say "Yeah, it can be long and convoluted, and the gameplay may be off at times...but fuck it, I still love it." What's so difficult about that? Seriously, answer me that.

 

[TerraMGP]

Enders Game. There, a series with no catchalls, and as far as the "it's more advanced thing" they don't use that as often as you think. Have you read much of the expanded universe? The lightsabers aren't even plasma, I just said that because it's what they would realistically be, not KILLER LIGHT that inexplicably ends. Even ignoring that, all you're saying is that it falls victim to the same crappy writing that other series fall to. A catchall is NEVER a good thing...Regardless, my points have, once again, been ignored in leu of talking about something random only tangentially related. Not only that but...Wait, Star Trek physics? Aside from the first season they've attempted to at least be as close to correct as possible. Hell, they're anal retentive in that department. At least pick your references better, oye.

Also, and I hate to agree with Mr. "absence of logic" up there, but both Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed were well done. I can't say anything about the recent Appleseed, but as far as Gits and the first Appleseed are concerned they've both got the ability to tell an intricate plot similar to that of the MGS series. That said, at least Ghost in the Shell falls victim to similar problems that plagued the Metal Gear line. Exposition got over the top long at times and it required you to stretch your suspension of disbelief to some pretty absurd levels when concerning the laughing man. Despite this, boredom was never an issue and most dialog was important as opposed to "fluff that'd be nice to know but why dear god are you bringing it up now?"

To VeryOblivious, I'd have to agree. I doubt he'd make another review on this. With SSBB, the fans were rabid but most of the issues come down to personal opinion. If you don't like the controles or the characters seem to small or what have you, nothing can change that. It can't be explained away. There isn't any deus ex machina when it comes to gameplay problems. The MGS series has issues that can be pointed out that are objective. You can like something and still realize something has issues, but this isn't one of those cases. People who love the game can't be arsed to at least admit it has issues. Hell, as a fan of Kingdom Hearts, the Eragon book series, and numerous other "things with problems" I fail to see why they NEED it to be so awesome. Shit, why does your enjoyment need to be backed by THIS IS AWESOME AND HAS NO FLAWS! Why not just say "Yeah, it can be long and convoluted, and the gameplay may be off at times...but fuck it, I still love it." What's so difficult about that? Seriously, answer me that.

I love the expanded universe, but its more a matter of frustration at people for saying things are bad when they just don't get them. Its frustration to listen to people rant about how horrid the writing in something is because its too dry. And yes, every science fiction book, even enders game, uses catchalls. Every book works on theoretical and often incorrect assumptions about how physics work. I won't go into how sabers are supposed to work here, but I will say that its just frustrating to hear people say "Well the writing is long and I find it boring and it says alot of things that arn't just up front so its really bad". Do you kind of understand why its annoying? I'm sorry but EVERY Science fiction book works on assumptions to some extent.

In the end though my argument is simply that people are mistaking fluff heavy writing for bad writing. Now if this was a D&D book I would be ticked off at alot of fluff, but overall I tend to think of good integration of a large amount of fluff is a GOOD thing. Its just not something everyone likes, but its not bad.

 

[Tempdude0]

...I...Are, you you honestly that thick or are you just dicking around? The point is that the very things you love about it are the problems with it. You may love them to death, just like some Narutards love Sasuke, but your love of all things shitty doesn't mean it's good. It's just what you like.

There's my point. You like what can objectively be called "bad" or "trying" or "annoying" or whatever. Why not just admit it? I don't care if you like those aspects, believe me, I understand what it's like to enjoy something with problems, but I do care that people have to tout the things they love as being awesome and beyond reproach. Being good and being enjoyable mustn't always go hand in hand.


Why can't you admit you like the crappy aspects. No, don't tell me you love it and blah blah blah and that makes it good. It makes it ENJOYABLE and specifically to you/others who enjoy the same thing. Why must your love be contingent on it being good? With the exception of a few vocal people, most here, even OTHER FANS can admit to seeing the problems with this game. They can see the issues and still love it.

Why is it that Indigo_Dingo, Jumplion, TerraMGP and miscellanious people not on this page that I can't be arsed to go find must defend to the death these things as being great but only if your one of those people that "get" it. You know, a hip, jazzy, super cool, neat, keen, and groovy cat. It's in the fridge, daddy-o! Are you hip to the jive? Can you dig what I'm layin' down? I knew that you could. Slide me some skin, soul brother!