Oh right, like when Solid Snake blac... or when the guys from Gears of Wa... or how even Master ch... well the guy in Call of Dury probab... well, the GTA IV guy probably had one of t...Aiddon said:@Razhem:
-shakes head- Wat veterans DO black out, it's called PTSD. You can't get over it, you merely learn to COPE, you find ways to live your life despite that damage. Samus has not been "pussified" as you like to claim, she's just been brought down to a more human level. She still kicks LOADS of ass across all creation.
As for the time this game is taking place, that also doesn't matter. It's not like people STOP having insecurities when they're 30 or older and it's not like characters stop having doubts and fears beyond their origin either. She's been through a lot and seeing Adam again has brought up some memories in her.
I think criticism of professional media writers needs to be a bit more savage than primary school sports day where everyone gets medals just for taking part.BlueInkAlchemist said:Now, the way she's given depth may suck ass. As I've said, I can't comment on that. But the fact an attempt is being made to give her depth at all is, to me, noteworthy.
Yeah, taking a look at that linked video, I also have to agree with the basic premise that Movie Bob is putting forward. While Team Ninja may not have handled the implementation of the character and story well, it really seems that what people are complaining about is more that their fantasy of Samus, which was based on no information at all, is not being upheld. This, naturally, is upsetting folks (most people don't like having their ideals, no matter how far fetched, pissed on).luckey said:sorry yahtzee, bob's argument makes more sense to me in this case then your does, so it looks like i'm gonna get this one
http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-40-Heavens-to-Metroid
If anything, he was under exaggerating Samus's new traits. know what would have made this a better game? Not calling it Metroid, and not calling the lead character Samus. Maybe then we would be much more open to it.joshuaayt said:Well, I can't really agree on any points, not having played the game, or even watched any cutscenes, but I do hope that Yahtzee was exaggerating about Samus's new character traits. I mean, it is nice, I suppose, that she *has* character traits now, but I'm unsure that generic dependent female was the best way to go about it...
Still, I'll reserve judgement on that until I've played the game, or at least watched a let's play.
As everyone before posted and since I hate repeating them and myself, we were 100% okay with giving Samus a personality, we were just afraid they'd go and screw it up, which they did.geizr said:Yeah, taking a look at that linked video, I also have to agree with the basic premise that Movie Bob is putting forward. The real thing that people are bitching about over this game is the fact their preconceived fantasies about what Samus is supposed to be like did not match the reality.luckey said:sorry yahtzee, bob's argument makes more sense to me in this case then your does, so it looks like i'm gonna get this one
http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-40-Heavens-to-Metroid
From what bits of the series I have played and understand about, Samus' personality and history are never really explored, at least not to any depth such to be sufficient. In prior games, she's nothing more than a woman with a gun running around shooting things, but that's not enough to actually tell us anything about her. We don't know anything about her reasons or motivations for doing anything. Everyone has just made up a fantasy that she's a complete badass because it fits current thinking and expectations in the gaming community about protagonists in general. It's a meme, and, like most memes, it's just shit people made up and failed to re-examine for validity and veracity.
Now, all of a sudden, Samus is revealed as being a human being, complete with flaws, hang-ups, quirks, etc. Yet, she still goes and gets a job done, despite any emotional or mental issues she may have to deal with. Many human beings can be totally messed up and still go out to do a normal hard day's work. In fact, many people do precisely this (it's part of being a responsible adult; when you have a job to do, you save the crying for later). And, as many should know from life experience, it is difficult to tell fully what a person is like when you only see them at work. For example, some fun-loving people can be a complete brick-*****/bastard at work, and vice versa.
Because we never really actually knew anything about Samus, this means that her actual personality and history could be anything at all. But very little of that can really be derived from the job she has of blowing away monsters (remember how a responsible adult just gets on with the job rather than sitting around crying about things). When she's off the job, Samus is allowed to devolve into a complete emotional wreck because she now has the time to focus on herself and all the various problems she has, which include relationship issues (as many normal human beings have). This is what transforms her into a normal human being rather than this iconic, heroic goddess fantasy that people have attached to her.
Basically, we in the game community removed from Samus her right to be a human being in order to satisfy our own desire for a shepherding paragon to show us the way. We became too identified with the character as a heroic exemplar in order to escape from our own frustrations and feelings of frailty in a difficult world. When Samus is revealed to no longer supported that escapist process, we became distraught. I have to agree with Movie Bob, the whole issue says more about the gaming community's warped thinking than it does about the real game and real character of Samus.
(A word about escapism as one who has practiced it for too many years: it's not a good habit when it becomes a prime coping mechanism, because it doesn't solve anything. At that point, it just makes life progressively harder to live with.)
I am, very sincerely, at a loss for words. You just completely melted my brain.BlueInkAlchemist said:So the best way to enjoy a game that's trying not to be an FPS is to play an FPS? Huh.
When was Samus established as having a "bold, independent spirit"? I don't remember that being mentioned at all in any of the games other than the fact that you, the player, are controlling her and she's completely alone. She blindly followed our orders even if it meant smacking into a wall repeatedly when our phones rang or falling into an acid pit when we mis-judged a jump she probably could have handled were she in control of her own body.
This sounds so much like so many other arguments against Other M I'm wondering if Yahtzee either got bored with the ZP enterprise now that his novel's out or has just been too busy to form salient points that he's cribbed notes from other sources. Not that I myself would ever do such a thing [http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2010/09/episode-40-heavens-to-metroid.html].
Funny? Yes. Accurate? No idea. I'm too poor to own a Wii. But I find myself kinda confused by all of the hatred. Maybe it's just me.
I had rescinded that entire post after I had thought about it some more, and you caught it before I had a chance to edit it.Warachia said:As everyone before posted and since I hate repeating them and myself, we were 100% okay with giving Samus a personality, we were just afraid they'd go and screw it up, which they did.geizr said:Yeah, taking a look at that linked video, I also have to agree with the basic premise that Movie Bob is putting forward. The real thing that people are bitching about over this game is the fact their preconceived fantasies about what Samus is supposed to be like did not match the reality.luckey said:sorry yahtzee, bob's argument makes more sense to me in this case then your does, so it looks like i'm gonna get this one
http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-40-Heavens-to-Metroid
From what bits of the series I have played and understand about, Samus' personality and history are never really explored, at least not to any depth such to be sufficient. In prior games, she's nothing more than a woman with a gun running around shooting things, but that's not enough to actually tell us anything about her. We don't know anything about her reasons or motivations for doing anything. Everyone has just made up a fantasy that she's a complete badass because it fits current thinking and expectations in the gaming community about protagonists in general. It's a meme, and, like most memes, it's just shit people made up and failed to re-examine for validity and veracity.
Now, all of a sudden, Samus is revealed as being a human being, complete with flaws, hang-ups, quirks, etc. Yet, she still goes and gets a job done, despite any emotional or mental issues she may have to deal with. Many human beings can be totally messed up and still go out to do a normal hard day's work. In fact, many people do precisely this (it's part of being a responsible adult; when you have a job to do, you save the crying for later). And, as many should know from life experience, it is difficult to tell fully what a person is like when you only see them at work. For example, some fun-loving people can be a complete brick-*****/bastard at work, and vice versa.
Because we never really actually knew anything about Samus, this means that her actual personality and history could be anything at all. But very little of that can really be derived from the job she has of blowing away monsters (remember how a responsible adult just gets on with the job rather than sitting around crying about things). When she's off the job, Samus is allowed to devolve into a complete emotional wreck because she now has the time to focus on herself and all the various problems she has, which include relationship issues (as many normal human beings have). This is what transforms her into a normal human being rather than this iconic, heroic goddess fantasy that people have attached to her.
Basically, we in the game community removed from Samus her right to be a human being in order to satisfy our own desire for a shepherding paragon to show us the way. We became too identified with the character as a heroic exemplar in order to escape from our own frustrations and feelings of frailty in a difficult world. When Samus is revealed to no longer supported that escapist process, we became distraught. I have to agree with Movie Bob, the whole issue says more about the gaming community's warped thinking than it does about the real game and real character of Samus.
(A word about escapism as one who has practiced it for too many years: it's not a good habit when it becomes a prime coping mechanism, because it doesn't solve anything. At that point, it just makes life progressively harder to live with.)
Her new personality does not fit with any of the past games, only going on missions alone, her fighting style, it even doesn't fit with the manga, as she gets over the whole Ridley thing and evolves more as a person than this robot straight out of Twilight.
I also have to question, what kind of people do you know that are messed up, but go forth to do a hard days work? I know messed up people too, they want nothing to do working to further society, but that's just who we know.
Finally, as a response to the video, I think it says just as much about Bob and others that they prefer these types of heroines.
yamitami said:Thank you for summing up my feelings exactly. Particularly the fact that it's RIDLEY who she freaks out over. If they made it Mother Brain then that would at least be within sight of believable. In sight through a long range scope, but still, a hell of a lot closer than her freaking out over everyone's favorite pterodactyl.
Then again maybe Samus just read all the Ridley/Samus fanfiction out there. Rule 34 ahoy!
Her backstory and the events in Fusion, along with a comic somewhere out there. The games themselves have kept her silent and up to the player but there's plenty of canon out there that's established her character. I know there's an argument against that saying that if it's not in the game then it's less relevant, but I respectfully disagree with that notion.BlueInkAlchemist said:When was Samus established as having a "bold, independent spirit"? I don't remember that being mentioned at all in any of the games other than the fact that you, the player, are controlling her and she's completely alone. She blindly followed our orders even if it meant smacking into a wall repeatedly when our phones rang or falling into an acid pit when we mis-judged a jump she probably could have handled were she in control of her own body.
So I went from the first page to this after my post, so I guess you can ignore my other post with your quote since it's been addressed.BlueInkAlchemist said:It's been pointed out that the angle I took in presenting my argument was fundamentally flawed. I'll definitely admit that. My argument was nowhere near as well-phrased or presented as others. Thanks for pointing it out respectfully.
On the other hand, while I will concede that the presentation of Samus as "bold and independent" holds up from the points you've put forward, I don't consider bold and independent to be completely opposed to also being emotionally scarred and occasionally uncertain or insecure. In fact, it could be argued that bold independence is a smoke screen to hide one's insecurities.
Again, I'll admit that since I haven't played the games or called up the cutscenes on YouTube, I cannot comment on the plot or gameplay. I'm just fascinated by this idea of Samus being depicted in the way she is has become almost universally reviled. Now, the way she's given depth may suck ass. As I've said, I can't comment on that. But the fact an attempt is being made to give her depth at all is, to me, noteworthy.
I just cringe to think what would happen if it were revealed in a Halo game that Master Chief likes to spend time out of his Spartan armor knitting between firefights.
This entire debacle has actually made me wonder if the whole player-avatar idea was a good thing to begin with. Quite frankly EVERY silent player avatar (The Warden, Commander Shepard, the SMT heroes, the Dragon Quest heroes, Link, 90% of protagonists in WRPGs, etc) and even some voiced characters like Marcus Fenix or Master Chief are nothing more than Mary Sues. They're blocks we project our wish-fulfillment fantasies onto and who have NOTHING resembling discernible character flaws and because of that we seem to have been STARVED for actual three-dimensional characters with human flaws and insecurities.geizr said:I had rescinded that entire post after I had thought about it some more, and you caught it before I had a chance to edit it.
It still looks to me like people generated a fantasy of Samus based on little or no information, and that fantasy is not being upheld by the current game. This is why some people are upset.
As for messed up people going to work, I've known a number (one, in fact, I knew personally had worked for years with a fairly distinguished career before she finally did commit suicide; absolutely none of us saw it coming because she was smiling and happy as normal on the job). In fact, coming from a more impoverished background, it was much the norm because people had to survive doing whatever job they could, despite all their frustrations, anguishes, and issues. Plus, they usually were single-parents with several children, which is an intrinsic recipe for mental instabilities, based on having lived around a number such people and coming from a single-parent home.
My point in my original post (which I rescinded because I felt its approach just wasn't appropriate) is that we only have really known Samus on her job and that this is not sufficient information to truly derive any knowledge about what she is like as a person. We've built up an ideal, and that ideal is not being fully upheld. I'll admit, Team Ninja was probably ham-fisted in their handling, but much of the cry I've seen elsewhere on the web (not just Movie Bob) has been exactly that the fantasy is not being upheld.