Zero Punctuation: Soul Calibur IV

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Panayjon

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Aug 12, 2008
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XPats post=6.69063.650444 said:
'I suggest you don't read the above wall of text. I regret even reading the first few paragraphs.'

Fair enough, to each his own, I guess. And I will admit, it is a little bloated. Probably why I don't usually write in forums.

Am I 'that guy'? Probably. But I don't really care. Calling somebody 'that guy' is a defense that people usually use when they suck at stuff.
You really are "that guy" but your giant post is a well reasoned argument and sums up the majority of the pro-fighting game stances. So I suggest that anyone who actually wants to see the two sides of the debate should read the wall of text.

I do want to say this though, just to show that objective views will only help make the genre better and help others understand our mysterious nerd ways. Memorization is necessary and button strings are important to learn. As I said before, fighting games have an absurd learning curve and there's no getting around that. Which is why it is a niche genre, just like turn based strategy games.

I do feel though that back in the says of Street Fighter 2, it wasn't as much looked at with unwary eyes. I think its because even though there were still a ton of moves you needed to remember, it was still only about 5 or so per character. The rest of it was simply knowing how to combo up the varying degrees of regular attacks. Just a thought, since that alone would lower the estranging curve by several degrees.
 

m spag

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Aug 21, 2008
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rightwingisgood post=6.69063.648832 said:
This seems to be another area where Yahtzee and I disagree. Though I understand the fact that if he doesn't get a game he can hardly stretch himself for a review he seems to have a direct hate to fan base ratio in his reviews that shows here. He also seems more arrogant then usual by using his own lack of connection with the genre to claim that it is no fun for anyone where others who actively enjoy the genre have prased it as a complete fighting experience. I will however conceed the point concerning the story in that I've never taken it too seriously where Soul Calibur is concenred and in general it never seems as "serious" a series as Mortal Kombat or Tekken. To finish I say MK V DC looks awesome.

P.S If anyone has a problem with the inclusion of Yoda, Darth Vader or the Apprentice it can be solved with two very easy words "non cannon"



Dude, it's obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about because yahtzee puts a negative spin on about every review he does. Don't knitpick everything he says about the game apart because if you haven't already figured it out (which it's pretty obvious you haven't) yahtzee points out every negative aspect of the game, and that's what makes if funny. This is not the place to come looking for a legitimate, serious game review, and there are plenty of games he has reviewed (and hated), which i happened to like, but I still found the review hilarious.

And you have to admit, almost everything he says about the games is true.
 

Kurt Horsting

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Jul 3, 2008
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Oh Yahtzee, there is a lot more to it then that. Once you really understand fighting games, there is a lot of potential that really goes unnoticed by most other gamers, including you. The best of this genre play out like real time chess except everyone has there own unique pieces. Understanding game mechanics, good strategy, knowing key points in a match, character strengths and weaknesses, and understanding your opponent are your keys to victory and it takes skill, dedication, and effortful practice to get there. It is sort of annoying being a fighting game tournament pro and having the genre I have dedicated myself to being trashed for almost all of the wrong reasons. It was inevitable that I would write this, but i was hoping to defend a much better game (like Guilty Gear XX AC, or Street fighter 2). But it's the genre that is on defense so here we go.
One: Treat it as a game only, something based on rules and how it is played not as a medium to deliver a story. a Ludologist stand point if you will. Criticizing a fighting game for havening a bad story or having poor character development is like criticizing chess, Go, or Scrabble for the same reason. I have still to find anyone that still plays chess or fighting games (on my level) because of a moving story or the chemistry between certain characters. There are some fighting games that don't even have a story, and are still really good as a game (Marvel vs Capcom 2 comes to mind).
Two: Play it strategically instead of button mashing. This might throw you off first generally because you have mentioned the futility of learning how to play the game because mashing the buttons works just as well. But button mashers can be put at a quick end by simple planning. Knowing how the game works, knowing character strengths and weaknesses, and adapting and anticipating what to your opponent will help you more then simply pressing the buttons more then your opponent does. I can say with great confidence that I haven't lost to a button masher for about 10 years, and I have only been truly serious (going to tournaments and such) for about 4 so the likelihood of me loosing to a button masher is about as likely as me catching madcow from drinking Dr. Pepper. With the right idea about how the game should work, button mashers will eternally be your *****.
Three: Play against people. People are a lot more creative in this genre then most others (if they use their brain more then their fingers), and the only way to get good at fighting games is to play people that are good as well. People (over a long enough time) tend to find all the strange, and borderline broken tactics then can, and then exploit them like 5 year old Chinese sweatshop workers. Whereas Computers are set to two modes. Lose or win. Computers in all fighting games are horrendously flawed in one way or another and they only real way to get the feel for the game is to play another person. Either they are too easy for the wrong reason (never countering obvious throw attempts in your case), or too hard for the wrong reason (getting every poke dragon punched because the computer can read the inputs before the 4 frames that it will come out in after the buttons is pressed, so you will be hit out of it before a move is even executed). Playing a computer is much more likely cause you to develop bad habits in the game then teaching you how to play. For example, you simply go for the throw since it decimates the computerized opponent, even though there is a whiff animation if miss. An adaptive player can just keep constantly side stepping with the 8-way run and hit you when you miss and punish you for being predictable. Or just zone you with a character with long reach and get widdled down by pokes. You wouldn't have learned the counters to your strategy because it didn't matter at the time. And when you play against people, play to win, not just to simply waste time.
Four: Play a good fighting game for God's sake! Soul Calibur 4 is shit, buggy, annoying and is selling out to whatever franchise it can get its hands on (Spawn, Tekken, Zelda now Star Wars!). Play something Like Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Street Fighter 3: 3rd strike, Virtual Fighter 5, Marvel vs Capcom 2 or Capcom vs snk 2. Games with great fighting engines, a wealth of unique characters (except VF5), in depth strategies and endless ways to play that complement any playing style. Aggressives, turtles, obsessives, planners, adapters, or how ever you want to play. Just play to your own style and play to win and improve yourself and you might actually like fighting games (most likely you will never read this or care to take in anything said). But for this game, you choose the winning move, and that was not to play.
 

Roto13

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Apr 23, 2008
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It's not really a good idea to review a fighting game based entirely on the single player mode, but whatever. The actual opinions don't really seem to be the point of Zero Punctuation.

Also, shameless plug goes here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/file/940048/26537
 

Altorin

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May 16, 2008
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Ben is a Single-Player gamer.

that much has been clear since day one.

About the single-player aspect of the game, he's spot on. I laughed at everything he said about the singleplayer aspect of this game, because it's exactly what I think about it.

That being said, I think Ben is probably missing the big picture with Soul Calibur 4, just because he doesn't review games for their multiplayer aspect, which is where this game shines.. or at least is the least dull. If he fought against a player with enough skill to deal with throw spammers, or even against a computer opponent with Nullify Throw S (cheap bastards), he'd probably find the game a little more difficult, and probably get better at it/enjoy it more.
 

XPats

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Aug 20, 2008
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@ Kurt Horsting and Panayjon

I edited my mammoth text because I thought it was out of place here, but it seems that the fighting game crew is coming out from under rocks. I wish I had not edited it now.

My entry is still super long, just... not quite as long.

I think that Soul Calibur is actually doing the genre an injustice. They feel the need to attract non-fighting game players with pretty graphics and tits, and don't do enough to evolve the actual engine. This may give the new comers a false idea of the fighting game world.

The real test of a fighting game (which really should be judged differently than just a singl player game)? If high level players find it interesting and deep enough to devote hours of practice to.
 

HadesWTF

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Honestly I don't know why you would review a game that is of the genre you don't like in the first place. Seems like it would waste your time and the outcome was already visible before you started.


I personally don't care, but you know people are going to be butthurt about it. *looks up at above posts* Yep. (Oh and I thought it was funny, especially the random "Herbal Bath" picture that kept popping up. LOL good stuff.)

Oh and for the record I was hyped about this game because I loved SC2. Bought it, played it for a week, and then got so bored with it I felt like I wasted my money.
 

Woe Is You

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Indigo_Dingo post=6.69063.650273 said:
JakobLogan post=6.69063.650201 said:
Black yeoman post=6.69063.649992 said:
Also SC means splintercell
and starcraft, but does it really matter as long as its clear what we are talking about?
Actually man, by a month, Soul Calibur was the first series.
Soul Calibur arcade release: July 30, 1998 (according to Wikipedia, GameFAQs has July 1998.)
StarCraft release: March 31, 1998 (according to Wikipedia, GameFAQs places it at April 1st.)

But Super Cobra was released in 1981 for the Atari 2600, so that'll probably be more entitled to the SC acronym than any of these others, if we're going by this stupid assumption that you can only have one game with a certain acronym.
 

IAT

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Aug 21, 2008
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I find myself actually creating an account to reply to not only this video but to the amount of people that seem to worship yahtzee and want to kiss his feet for such a success in the video game review industry. You people reply with such poor language and, ironically, punctuation to his reviews and he still listens to your thoughts, maybe you should put more thought into your replies rather than wanting to be there first to congratulate and kiss up to him. I have taken time to listen to the review and, as I have got the game, I find that I do not, unlike a lot if people, take what yhatzee says to heart.
 

miller483

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Apr 23, 2008
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I'd LOVE to face Yahtzee at this game! He seems like the biggest scrub ever, what with the throw-spamming and all.
 

XPats

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HadesWTF post=6.69063.650577 said:
Honestly I don't know why you would review a game that is of the genre you don't like in the first place. Seems like it would waste your time and the outcome was already visible before you started.


I personally don't care, but you know people are going to be butthurt about it. *looks up at above posts* Yep. (Oh and I thought it was funny, especially the random "Herbal Bath" picture that kept popping up. LOL good stuff.)

Oh and for the record I was hyped about this game because I loved SC2. Bought it, played it for a week, and then got so bored with it I felt like I wasted my money.
The reason why people (including myself) may be up in arms, is because Yahtzee just shat on a genre that he seriously does not understand, using lots of BS reasons, as opposed to a single game. Also, this is a genre that many people have put lots of effort into, and have got lots of fun out of.

And there is a difference between Yahtzee shitting on fighting games, and Yahtzee shitting on JRPGs (which I also happen to like). In fighting games, you get out what you put in, and various levels of skill will determine the type of experiences you have with those types of games. In JRPGs, the difference in skill is not as vast, so that comes down more to taste, as most gamers will experience more or less the same thing.
 

Stelman257

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Actually his reasons were quite legit. They wearn't BS.
"Also, this is a genre that many people have put lots of effort into, and have got lots of fun out of."
Maybe so but Yahtzee got almost no fun out of it, he was able to beat normal AND hard with just the throw button. Deal with it people.

Tell me which of his reasons were BS? I've played Soul Caliber 4 at a friends house and he was spot on. My friend play 2 and 3 before playing 4 and i still beat him, by randomly smashing buttons.
 

XPats

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Stelman257 post=6.69063.650675 said:
Actually his reasons were quite legit. They wearn't BS.
"Also, this is a genre that many people have put lots of effort into, and have got lots of fun out of."
Maybe so but Yahtzee got almost no fun out of it, he was able to beat normal AND hard with just the throw button. Deal with it people.

Tell me which of his reasons were BS? I've played Soul Caliber 4 at a friends house and he was spot on. My friend play 2 and 3 before playing 4 and i still beat him, by randomly smashing buttons.
Like I said, I don't like the Soul Calibur series for much of the stuff that has already been mentioned. It is the extension of his opinions of this game to all of the genre that I have a problem with.

Soul Calibur is a button mashers dream, that is a fact. However, just because your friend played 2 and 3 does not automatically make him good at it, or fighting games at all for that matter. As for the BS: giving the story as much weight as he did is BS when it comes to fighting games; playing against the CPU in a game made for vs. is BS; thinking that he could write a review of a game with an extremely high learning curve accurately after playing through single player mode a few times is BS.

Oh, and he did not indicate that he beat all of hard mode using throws, just a match. But that really does not matter.
 

XPats

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Aug 20, 2008
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Ah... who am I kidding... I just feel peeved because I spent most of my childhood inside playing Street Fighter, instead of being outside flying kites and chasing girls around. I now feel like I wasted my life.
 

Panayjon

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Actually all of his reasons were legit. If you look through (after 7 pages I think its acceptable to just skim) most of us have pretty much thumbed our collective noses at Soul Caliber as a serious fighting game. Our arguments are based around the genre, which for some reason he decided to bash at the very end. Now, I'm not a frothing fan boy, I get that thats just comedy. It's still a little out of place though, even with his disclaimers of, "I don't hate the genre, I just don't get it."

However, Soul Caliber is as good as any other place to discuss the classic shortcomings/misconceptions of the genre. Also, your friend who had played previous games in the series... there's a difference between the casual guy who drops an hour or two every now and again and the people who methodically look to use all the mechanics of the game. As I mentioned before: parrying, side stepping, using kicks effectively, noting the difference between horizontal and vertical slashes is important. Was he trying to do any of that or did he just try to button mash right back at you?
 

tobyornottoby

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Also, this is a genre that many people have put lots of effort into, and have got lots of fun out of.
But there is a button smash issue. I've played against multiple people who knew the moves, but couldn't win from buttonsmash and went "no fair!"... Effort -> no Fun

And there is a difference between Yahtzee shitting fighting games
He's not just shtting the genre as opposed to a game... he's shitting people. That's lame. Extremely funny but lame :p
 

blackadvent

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*looks at Ivy*

I'm sorry, I can't understand you- your breasticles are in the way.

Solid review, Yahtz-meister. Though I thought Link fit in half-decently with the Soul Calibur cast compared to pretty much all the other guest stars.
 

drawthreecards

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Panayjon post=6.69063.649882 said:
I'll ignore that your name reminds me of Ancestral Recall, which is the last thing in all of gaming that should be talking about balance. Instead I'll just say this. Games. Work. Two words that should not be in the same sentence. Fighting games have a steep learning curve. To call it a lack of work ethic might be going too far, since a good game should be fun from start to end. I'm resigned to say that fighting games are a niche appeal.

At any rate I actually wanted to bring an idea to the table about balance. Now that consoles are hooked up to the internet and all, how about patches and updates? I feel as if fighting games would benefit greatly from this, so that once an abuse/glitch is found it can killed off. Whereas currently people will find something to abuse and then abuse it. Also... what's up with all the characters in fighting games. Ken from SF has always been top tier for instance, but why are there tiers of characters? Shouldn't a good game be balanced? Rather than having a whole slew of characters that are great and others that comparatively suck?

Note that this is simply the observations of someone who likes fighting games. Recognizing and fixing these issues would help alleviate the genre from its limited appeal.
First of all, my name should not remind of Ancestral Recall, it should remind you of Ancestral Vision.

Next, about work and games in the same sentence. It's a bit of personal taste as to how much work you want to put into a game. Let's face it; God of War is great fun, but even on easy you have to think for a second before mashing triangle. At the extreme high-end, we have MMORPGs where the combat is redundant and the entire premise is working to improve your character. Obviously I think that's going overboard, but I do think that mastery of a game can be intensely gratifying depending on your personality type, so it really comes down to how deep of a game you want to master. Some people like mastering Tetris, I prefer mastering Street Fighter. And yes, fighters are a niche, as it's about at the FPS range of complexity minus the aiming and adding lots of frustration learning timing rules and character matchups.

On the balance front, it really is a moral question. For example, do you think that all the wavedashing/L-cancelling/chaingrabbing stuff from Smash Bros. Melee was a negative thing that needed to be removed? Tournament players are in agreement that these techniques ended up making the game deeper by increasing the number of viable options in a match. On the other hand, you might say that the game wasn't meant to be played that way, but people thinking like this must realize that tournaments will only ban techniques/characters/etc. if they can be EMPIRICALLY proven to dominate high-level play, and even then only if it proves to be nigh-uncounterable. Yun's Genei-Jin in SF3: 3rd Strike is counterable. Snipers in Halo 3 are counterable. They are powerful, but not unbeatable. The same can be said of 99% of glitches/exploits found in a multiplayer game. That said, patching for console fighters to remove the few game-breaking glitches would be awesome.

And as far as tiers go, it really has nothing to do with the way the game is made. The developers do not make characters crappy (with the notable exception of Dan from the SF:Alpha games and soon SF4). A tier list arises out of evidence gathered from the highest levels of tournament play, and really doesn't mean much. It's simply a list of characters that have been shown to win more often. It is entirely possible that Dan could kick Ken's butt in a tournament. In fact, I would say that if you even LOOK at a tier list without intending to soon win tournaments that you should slap yourself for being too impressionable. It is only useful for tournament die-hards and no one else.