Zero Punctuation: Thief - Stealing a Classic

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MeisterKleister

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Mar 9, 2012
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TheMadDoctorsCat said:
MeisterKleister said:
mavrik said:
So, in short: "WHIIINE, IT'S NOT A COPY-PASTE OF THIEF 2, WHIIIINE". But then again, you don't go watching Yahtzee to see an unbiased review.
Jim Sterling wrote an unbiased review once:
http://www.destructoid.com/100-objective-review-final-fantasy-xiii-179178.phtml
Honestly if that's Jim's takeaway from the "Bioshock Infinite" debacle then he's completely missed the damn point.
What are you talking about? That article came out long before Bioshock Infinite. And it's a response to the Final Fantasy XIII review backlash and the fallacy of what a review is "supposed to be" and what a reviewer is "supposed to do".

Anyway, you're going off-topic here. I was addressing mavrik's point of expecting "unbiased reviews".
 

Two-A

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The Youth Counselor said:
Anyhow, I hear the Legacy of Kain series may be rebooted with Nosgoth. Can't wait for the bile from Yahtzee there.
Please no. I actually have some emotional attachment to that series.

Shame that the team that did Human Revolution wasn't around to do the same for Thief. Oh, well, at least we have The Dark Mod.
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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MeisterKleister said:
TheMadDoctorsCat said:
MeisterKleister said:
mavrik said:
So, in short: "WHIIINE, IT'S NOT A COPY-PASTE OF THIEF 2, WHIIIINE". But then again, you don't go watching Yahtzee to see an unbiased review.
Jim Sterling wrote an unbiased review once:
http://www.destructoid.com/100-objective-review-final-fantasy-xiii-179178.phtml
Honestly if that's Jim's takeaway from the "Bioshock Infinite" debacle then he's completely missed the damn point.
What are you talking about? That article came out long before Bioshock Infinite. And it's a response to the Final Fantasy XIII review backlash and the fallacy of what a review is "supposed to be" (No True Scotsman?).

Anyway, you're going off-topic here. I was addressing mavrik's point of expecting "unbiased reviews".
Ah, apologies. I thought Jim's thing was a result of the "Infinite" thing. Didn't even realise that there was a backlash about FF13.

I agree with Mavrik though, although I get your point too. Mine is that it's impossible to expect a completely "objective" review. It's not impossible for the reviewer to state what he thinks OTHER people would like or dislike about a game. If a reviewer is paid to give good buying advice to consumers (and again, that to me is half of a reviewer's job, the other half being providing honest criticism to the people who make the games) then that to me would be a reasonable thing to expect. There are games (and movies, and books) that I absolutely adore, but I completely get why other people don't like them as much. I wouldn't recommend the original "Total Recall" to my mum!
 

Kingjackl

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It's funny we get this mass of bile just a day after Shamus Young's "it weren't that bad" article. Of the two die-hard Thief fans posting about the controversial reboot, I wonder which opinion is in the minority.

It's a shame, since as cool as the original Thief games are, they really haven't aged well. What was great about Deus Ex: Human Revolution is that it took the best aspects of the original Deus Ex and the streamlined modern game design without compromising too much. With Thief, it looks like for now we have a choice between the classic game with horrible graphics and a dated user interface versus the spick and span streamlined modern game with none of the depth or charm.
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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mavrik said:
But that pretty much IS most of his review - he even admits it himself that he cannot give the game a fair treatment instead of comparing everything to Thief 2. Some of his criticisms are spot on but most of them are just "this is different than Thief 2".
If the game was called 'Pilferer' and the protagonist 'Gurret', you might have a point; but if the game sells itself on the basis of nostalgia for a series remembered for a combination of humour, exploration and unconventional design, then it's entirely fair to critique it for not offering that by comparing it to the original.


Under_your_bed said:
For anyone who still wants to defend this game, I give you only this:
Dear god that was a travesty. It's even worse than I imagined.
 

MeisterKleister

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Mar 9, 2012
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TheMadDoctorsCat said:
I agree with Mavrik though, although I get your point too. Mine is that it's impossible to expect a completely "objective" review. It's not impossible for the reviewer to state what he thinks OTHER people would like or dislike about a game. If a reviewer is paid to give good buying advice to consumers (and again, that to me is half of a reviewer's job, the other half being providing honest criticism to the people who make the games) then that to me would be a reasonable thing to expect. There are games (and movies, and books) that I absolutely adore, but I completely get why other people don't like them as much. I wouldn't recommend the original "Total Recall" to my mum!
It's not "impossible" to expect that, it's just dumb, because it goes directly against part of what makes any game review interesting.
A reviewer's job is make a review according to his employer's demands. That's it. "Review" is a broad term. It's not his/her job to write a review according to your expectations. I consider a good reviewer someone who shares his honest opinion and justifies it with reasons.
And I think Yahtzee and Jim both do that.
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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TheMadDoctorsCat said:
And by the way, I'd apply almost none of what I've just said to "Zero Punctuation", which I regard as an entertainment show about videogames more than a serious critical look at them. Not that there isn't serious criticism involved, but you watch and episode of "Zero Punctuation" primarily for the humour and for Yahtzee's personality, not for an in-depth critical look at the games he's reviewing.

What you expect from a "review" does obviously depend on the medium and the intention of the critic.
Speak for yourself, of course. I personally find that he makes a lot more critical analysis than most other 'reviews'. The humour is just the icing on the cake.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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I absolutely loved this review Yahtzee, reminded me of your earlier reviews where you used to swear more and we could literally taste the anger, cynicism and/or sarcasm dripping off your words all mixed-in with side-splitting wit and humor :D

See, it's no fun when a shitty game that nobody cares about turns out to be shit - but when a game that has the NERVE to call itself "Thief" makes such a huge mess of itself, that's when things get really fun! And depressing :(
 

IrenIvy

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randomthefox said:
Everyone saying this game needs to be "judged on its own merits" and not compared to the previous (inarguably superior) games in the franchise needs to watch this

http://youtu.be/8y9hNKe93u0?t=1h24m9s

Just replace "Silent Hill" with "Thief".

Also this, just for fun:

I agree. If they wanted us to judge the game on its own merit, they shouldn't have used the name and identity of another, much better game, to sell 'Thief 2014' to us.

And level from Thief 2014 looks much worse than I've expected. Is the whole game like that or it is the most severe cause?

captcha says: flat foot
rather "shot foot", if you ask me
 

shiajun

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So that's what, 1.5 out of four for Eidos recent entries into beloved franchises to work? DE:HR seems to have hit the sweet spot, Tomb Raider worked pretty well...except for you know, there not being any decent tombs or free exploring in the game. Then there's Hitman:Absolution, which kind of languished in its corner and now Thief, being all over the place, not knowing what to do with its premise.

Please Eidos, stop it. Give it up. Make up new IPs, this strategy isn't really giving you high praise.
 

themilo504

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mavrik said:
themilo504 said:
Yahtzee's dislike of the game was not simply because it?s not thief 2, its fine if you don?t agree with him(I do it all the time) but don?t simplify his opinion to defend a game you like.
But that pretty much IS most of his review - he even admits it himself that he cannot give the game a fair treatment instead of comparing everything to Thief 2. Some of his criticisms are spot on but most of them are just "this is different than Thief 2".
His criticisms are not that its different from thief 2, his criticisms are that its different from thief 2 in a bad way.

Also comparing a reboot to the original is perfectly fine, if they wanted to avoid that they should not have called it thief.
 

Saika Renegade

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I'm not surprised it hasn't got the spirit of the originals. Modern visual design demands tend to clash with older game design concepts, and usually ends up making a mess rather than a success. I suspect this is part of why X-COM seems to be widely praised while Syndicate 2012, The Bureau: XCOM Declassified, and now Thief 2014 are garnering scorn rather than support.

Couldn't they just have appended a new IP to this? Are those getting that expensive now? Similar to Syndicate, why try to reach for nostalgia money on what is admittedly a small target group when you're not going to actually engage that target group with the core mechanics? Certainly you could reach new players who haven't been colored by the past by making changes for approachability and perhaps clarity (thank goodness for the streamlining of XCOM's soldier inventory system, for instance), but when you make claims to be reaching out to older fans, then don't actually reach out to them at all and end up causing them to talk down about your new production, it just raises the question: What are they actually trying to do, then?

Incidentally, I think this is the first time I've seen an actual subtitle on a Zero Punctuation video, not including basic descriptors like "Retrospective" or "First Impressions"...
 

Czann

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I just hope this is not a franchise killer.

So many people waited for this game for so long and they had to ruin it, hadn't they?
 

Objectable

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Diego Floor said:
This is like beating a dead horse. And it feels good.
There are some people in the AAA game industry who insist on beating a dead horse. But then there are those with creativity and vision, who come along and say, "I bet there's some good fucking left in that horse." Those men of vision, who molested dead horses, went on to create the new Theif ? because nobody had the courage to stop them. I think we can all share a little bit in that blame; we could've done more to avert this if we really tried, but in a climate of fear, we did not act and it happened.
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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I was bugged by the fact most of the game was stealing from poor people in a trashy part of town. We have maybe 3 instances of robbing a small manor.

The stats though, that was done so poorly it was infurating. I tried to play as a ghost, but disabling traps counts towards "Opportunist", and non-leathal takedowns count as "Predator" instead of just stealthed kills, so even though I went a couple chapters without knocking out or being detected AT ALL, disabling enough traps gave me more "Opportunist" points so going undetected ment absolutely nothing and I didn't get my ghost ranking.

Not only that, but whatever you do before a chapter mission gets counted in the post-chapter mission stats, so knocking out a guard for a side-mission counts towards kills/takedowns in the chapter. Once I figured that bullshit out I was like "FUCK IT! EVERYONE'S GETTING BLACKJACK'D!" BONK! BONK! And the game was a lot less satisfying.

A couple things I can't figure out though...
Was Erin killing though plage or mutating though madness everyone in the city?

What the hell was the thief taker general's motivation for switching sides? Isn't he leader of the town watch? He just shows up at the end with Orion for a forced "boss fight" and we get no resolution there.

Where they hell was Garret for a year? Was he in Moira too? If so how did he get his stuff back? Why was he released?
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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shiajun said:
So that's what, 1.5 out of four for Eidos recent entries into beloved franchises to work? DE:HR seems to have hit the sweet spot, Tomb Raider worked pretty well...except for you know, there not being any decent tombs or free exploring in the game. Then there's Hitman:Absolution, which kind of languished in its corner and now Thief, being all over the place, not knowing what to do with its premise.

Please Eidos, stop it. Give it up. Make up new IPs, this strategy isn't really giving you high praise.
The latest Deus Ex game was good up until the last levels where everyone became a "zombie" and the ending was "push a button for exposition"
 

Zak757

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Oct 12, 2013
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I was really excited for this game despite never having played the previous ones, as the idea of it interested me. But after reading a bunch of negative reviews, I began to lose interest. This was the nail in the coffin.

Welp, time for a fourth run on Dishonored!
 

Sticky

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I expected this. This game could very well get my worst game of the year award. Not even because it's not Thief 2 or whatever kind of bollocks people are whining about, but because as a game it is inherently flawed and broken. Guard AI is garbage, sound design is disturbingly bad, and the graphics are a constant gritty gray. It seems like a game people would make to make fun of modern AAA game design for a video on youtube instead of an actual attempt at rebooting a franchise.

I remember losing all hope for the game initially when I watched what I think is the defining moment of the game in a stream (yes I've played the game since then). There's a slide puzzle in a crawlspace behind the wall of a brothel and it became clear at about this point that the game has no acoustic simulation so sound goes straight through all walls (something the Unreal engine has by DEFAULT so there's no fucking telling why this game doesn't have it). Meanwhile two NPCs were fucking in an adjacent room during the whole puzzle, resulting in the slide puzzle _itself_ sounding like it was yelling "OH GOD, OH GOD, PUSH IT PUSH IT HARDER, GIVE IT ALL YOU GOT GIVE IT ALL YOU GOT". After thirty minutes of laughing at the scene that was unfolding before us, we resigned to further have our childhood memories shat upon and continued the buggy linear mess until the ending.

And oh god the ending is terrible, if it weren't for aforementioned dirty masochistic slide puzzle it would easily top one of the greatest I-wasn't-expecting-anything-and-I'm-still-disappointed moments I can remember in modern video games.

This entire game has lead me to believe that some people have just set their standards so low that if it doesn't crash, or set their console on fire, or refuse to play, or demand that they buy DLC for the ending, then they'll be happy with just about anything. I see plenty of such people in this thread defending what amounts to another crappy linear corridor progress simulator with such vigor that one must wonder what exactly the game must have done for them to achieve such high praises. One must wonder how high their standards are to begin with when all it takes is another by-the-numbers stealth game with terrible mechanics and mediocre design to be considered 'good enough' in their book.

I do have one stabbing question though for those defending it:

I think the game is fine for what it is, the usual mass pleasing, dime a dozen triple A game.
How did you experience the game? Did you experience the numerous framerate drops, terrible texture design, awful sound design, and NPC AI that would make even the completely clueless pillocks of Thief 1 seem like genius rocket scientists even on the hardest difficulty?

Because I certainly hope this just isn't the level of quality we've resigned ourselves to. I understand fully if it is, if those are just minor nits to you that every game seems to have these days that we just ignore because that's the polite thing to do, but those otherwise seem like serious issues to me that get a free pass for no better reason than "It's not like other modern games are any better". A phrase I'm seeing disturbingly often when it comes to AAA games (Aliens: Colonial Marines for example had the EXACT SAME RESPONSE as many have in this thread, will you look back on Thi4f in a few months and ask yourself why you ever defended this title?)
 

Racecarlock

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canadamus_prime said:
Is it my imagination or is the AAA industry getting exponentially worse?
Well let me put it like this, if this is your imagination then this must be one hell of a shared dream, my friend.