Zero Punctuation: Tomb Raider
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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In fairness, half the problem I had with GTA IV was the whole "we created a darts-playing mechanic, and by God, you're going to use it" issue. I have less problem with mechanics that are introduced and subsequently become optional to primary gameplay than ones that you're expected to slog through again and again when there's more entertaining gameplay just out of reach.
Lara's character being reactionary is the point. It's about resistance and strength within. Surviving despite the cost and being transformed. Not any fateful character choice.
In the game you'll hear, "There are no heroes, only survivors". She never wanted to be a hero like Walker. Being forced to react was the point. It's about learning that you have what it takes. I don't see how one is inherently better than the other.
Also arguably Walker had the exact same choice despite what the Spec-Ops wants you to believe. Be violent or fail.
In the game you'll hear, "There are no heroes, only survivors". She never wanted to be a hero like Walker. Being forced to react was the point. It's about learning that you have what it takes. I don't see how one is inherently better than the other.
Also arguably Walker had the exact same choice despite what the Spec-Ops wants you to believe. Be violent or fail.
HURRAY! I AM NOT ALONE!
Thank you for avenging the grievances I had with this overrated piece of shite, Yahtzee.
Thank you for avenging the grievances I had with this overrated piece of shite, Yahtzee.
WAIT! Did you just spoil the "I'm not going to spoil it but it's when Walker does a bad thing" part of Spec Ops that you specifically said you weren't going to spoil?!
I enjoyed this review, more so than the other ones in recent memory. Except for that part. In the words of James May: "Oh, cock!"
I enjoyed this review, more so than the other ones in recent memory. Except for that part. In the words of James May: "Oh, cock!"
Y'mean another game written by Rhianna Pratchett has obviously issues in its story? Seriously, between this, Mirror's Edge, and Heavenly Sword she definitely has cemented that she did not inherit her father's talent
Although I always enjoy my fair share of Zero Punctuation every week, I will have to disapprove with you Yahtzee.
I enjoyed the game myself and I'm glad they did this reboot, the previous ones were quite bad actually (except for maybe Underworld or Legend), but that is debatable.
With that said, I'm glad Lara's back even though the game felt rather Uncharty at times, overall a good game.
I enjoyed the game myself and I'm glad they did this reboot, the previous ones were quite bad actually (except for maybe Underworld or Legend), but that is debatable.
With that said, I'm glad Lara's back even though the game felt rather Uncharty at times, overall a good game.
But even in the very beginning she decided to send the expedition to the island of doom
then she decides to save everyone and stuff
deosn't she?
That said, this installment didn't feel as Tomb Raid-y to me as I'd like and didn't feel as survivalist as it was advertised. Tombs are just some side-missions and puzzles really basic, most is about shooting hundreds of people with a bit of mystery in the background.
So kind of an inversion of what I was hoping for. The actual shooting wasn't bad tho.
then she decides to save everyone and stuff
deosn't she?
That said, this installment didn't feel as Tomb Raid-y to me as I'd like and didn't feel as survivalist as it was advertised. Tombs are just some side-missions and puzzles really basic, most is about shooting hundreds of people with a bit of mystery in the background.
So kind of an inversion of what I was hoping for. The actual shooting wasn't bad tho.
I don't recall Yahtzee saying he thought this game was an 'overrated piece of shite'. He just did what he does with most games, and actually, I think it was really not that scathing at all by his standards.NearLifeExperience said:
So how would you improve the story then? There is character development- she starts off unsure about herself and her abilities, has a load of shit thrown at her, and becomes a survivor (confident, strong, determined, blah blah blah). And her being 'reactionary' is the whole point of the story, so I'm not entirely sure what your problem is on that front.Proverbial Jon said:
Yahtzee's point about reactionary characters being difficult to describe as having a story arc is a legit point. If you're left with the impression that they did things only because they had to, not because they chose to, then there's not that much changing about their personality, motives, point of view, etc.
On the other hand, the problem is that there's rarely any middle ground anymore when it comes to reactionary/proactive characters. By that I mean that people at large seem to have this very jaded, cynical (and yes, I know that describes Yahtzee in a nutshell) viewpoint about fictional character motives. If a character tries to do something out of a sense of morality or honor, they quickly get the "morkishly virtuous" label stamped on them and are quickly dismissed as the ridiculously stalwart paladin-types who will charge blithely into a dangerous situation that any "sensible" person would know better than to mess with because anyone with two brain cells to rub together would see they're not going to win this particular fight charging in head-on. On the other hand, the "sensible" characters often act like self-centered, emo jack asses who will only begrudgingly do something that requires sacrifice or risk on their part with no immediately apparent reward, usually just to get the crowbared-in love interests to stop whining at them and get their tits out.
That, to me, seems to be the two types of protagonists we have to chose from these days: either the brave idiot or the smart coward. To tell the truth, sometimes I'm not sure if its because that's just how all protagonists are being viewed, or how they're being written these days. I have to admit, sometimes it seems like the proactive protagonists act pretty damn stupid, like Vash the Stampede from Trigun, incessantly trying to reason with every bad guy even when they've got a gun to an innocent person's head, or Snow from Final Fantasy XIII, hurtling into every dangerous situation without the faintest idea what the fuck he's going to do. Seriously, where are the protagonists that balance sense with morals, like Humphrey Boggart's Sam Spade or Clint Eastwood's The Man With No Name?
On the other hand, the problem is that there's rarely any middle ground anymore when it comes to reactionary/proactive characters. By that I mean that people at large seem to have this very jaded, cynical (and yes, I know that describes Yahtzee in a nutshell) viewpoint about fictional character motives. If a character tries to do something out of a sense of morality or honor, they quickly get the "morkishly virtuous" label stamped on them and are quickly dismissed as the ridiculously stalwart paladin-types who will charge blithely into a dangerous situation that any "sensible" person would know better than to mess with because anyone with two brain cells to rub together would see they're not going to win this particular fight charging in head-on. On the other hand, the "sensible" characters often act like self-centered, emo jack asses who will only begrudgingly do something that requires sacrifice or risk on their part with no immediately apparent reward, usually just to get the crowbared-in love interests to stop whining at them and get their tits out.
That, to me, seems to be the two types of protagonists we have to chose from these days: either the brave idiot or the smart coward. To tell the truth, sometimes I'm not sure if its because that's just how all protagonists are being viewed, or how they're being written these days. I have to admit, sometimes it seems like the proactive protagonists act pretty damn stupid, like Vash the Stampede from Trigun, incessantly trying to reason with every bad guy even when they've got a gun to an innocent person's head, or Snow from Final Fantasy XIII, hurtling into every dangerous situation without the faintest idea what the fuck he's going to do. Seriously, where are the protagonists that balance sense with morals, like Humphrey Boggart's Sam Spade or Clint Eastwood's The Man With No Name?
To reiterate though, both the player and the Captain have the same choice: Do something awful or die. Both make the same choice.DarkhoIlow said:
Spot on. Actually I think this is the most "spot on" ZP I've seen so far and it's exactly the points I was screaming out while reading the awful Escapist review.
As Yahtzee said, the best thing about Tomb Raider (the series) WAS the free exploration and the getting past what were basically platforming puzzles. This game didn't have that.
As Yahtzee said, the best thing about Tomb Raider (the series) WAS the free exploration and the getting past what were basically platforming puzzles. This game didn't have that.
Okay, so... another game I've already played through is getting reviewed by our beloved Yahtzee. Good review. Guess I'll give my opinion as well...
Bear in mind, this is the opinion of one who has never before played a Tomb Raider-game except Angel of Darkness, but that was so long ago I remember squat about it.
...
Hey, here's a crazy idea: why did this game need humans to shoot at anyways? Wouldn't it have been enough with, you know, wildlife? After all, you're stuck on an island in the middle of the ocean, in a place few people ever live to go through, and no hope of rescue in sight. Why the cultists? Couldn't the whole game have been about the struggles of a lone girl in a hostile environment, instead of this psychotic woman slaying a whole bunch of mad people? Surely that would negate a lot of my criticism. Just saying.
Anyway, overall this game was... meh. Aside for my intense hatred for the main character, the overall gameplay is just okay. It works, but is nothing groundbreaking. In my opinion, it is not worth shelling out 50-60 bucks for this game. If you decide to play it, wait until it goes down in price or hits a sale.
That is all.
Bear in mind, this is the opinion of one who has never before played a Tomb Raider-game except Angel of Darkness, but that was so long ago I remember squat about it.
PROS:
The beginning - The first few hours, the ones that set the tone for the entire game? Love them. You truly feel the desperation of the characters, how they scramble to survive this whole ordeal in any way possible. Lara apologizing to a deer for killing it truly hammered the point home for me.
The weakness - This ties in to the previous pro of the game, with the beginning and all. The game does an excellent job at making the character of Lara feel vulnerable and out of her element (at least the first few hours). The sequence where you have to guide her through the shanty town with a broken arm in particular serves to reinforce that she is still human.
The environments - Say what you like about the brown graphics, the island looks gorgeous. The area with shipwrecks, the town made out of rusty wreckage, the stormy mountains, it all looks great.
CONS:
QTE's - They are incredibly annoying. What else can I say.
Audiologs - Okay, maybe they're more like paperlogs rather than audiologs, but they still talk over them so whatever. Now, I don't particulary mind audiologs in games. I enjoy collecting them, and it is always nice to be rewarded for collecting miscellaneous mickmacks, and in the case of audiologs, the reward is some optional backstory. The keyword being "optional", as in something that isn't necessary in order to understand what is going on. But TR decides to put in some more vital plot points in its audiologs. Where does Lara come from? Explained in the audiologs. How does the crew feel about being shipwrecked? Explained in the audiologs. Who is Himiko, the final villian of the drama? Explained in the audiologs. Why is Whitman such a douche? What do you know, explained in the audiologs. All of this would have been much better served if the main story explained it to us, rather than these textbooks we find lying around, because they rather important details to the overall plot.
The violence - Okay, I for one do not mind violence as much as I used to, and playing violent videogames is a perfect remedy for those hate-filled urges of mine, but the violence inflicted to Lara in this game is just sickening to watch. You get to watch her get shot, beaten, stabbed, impaled, strangled, drowned, smashed, trashed, and god knows what else. I don't mind it in itself, except for the way the game presents it all. Everytime Lara gets brutally killed, the camera zooms in and changes to the optimal angle for you to see the latest of Lara's gruesome demises, and witness just in what way that long spike enters her body. Couple that with all the dirt that Lara gets smeared all over her face, and the fact that her yelps of pain sometimes sounds more like she's about to have an orgasm, and I feel dirty for playing it. This probably would have been an even bigger con, if not for...
Lara Croft - Aaand, this is where the game makes its biggest misstep. Lara Croft. The main character of it all. No, I don't hate her because she isn't the old Lara. No, I don't hate her because she is angsty 90% of the time (face it, if I were stuck in the same situation, I would feel pretty depressed myself). I hate her because she is a horrible person. And it feels weird, seeing as the first half of the game does such a great job at making you feel just how desperate she is over her whole situation, and how she blames herself for convincing the rest of the crew to go to this godsforsaken place. But once her human bodycount reaches the third digit, any semblance of likability in her is thrown out, once you realize just how much of a monster she is, killing persons without so much as a blink of the eye, all the while calling them "bastards" and "f*ckers". Sure, the cultists are not exactly the most stable bunch, but they have basically the same goal as you: getting out of this godsforsaken place. And you keep overhearing their discussions about how excited they are at the prospect of finally being allowed to go home and live a normal life, seconds before you're inevitably forced to cap them in the head because there's no way to sneak past them. Also, Lara is incredibly unpleasant towards those she doesn't like. Like Whitman. Towards the end, you have this short conversation where Lara narrates to herself how Whitman was a money-grubbing bastard. Dude, Whitman just got chopped to beef stroganoff by two insane samurais, and you are honest to god sitting there and talking trash about him literaly less than a minute after his death?! Sure, he was a dumbass, but come on! What about that helicopter guy who came to rescue you? He came all the way here to save your ass, risking life and limb going through that storm to your signal. And what do you do? You put a freaking gun to his head, and bark at him like a madman! And after the helicopter crashes you never mention him again! Of course Ross gets a funeral and all, but helicopter guy? Nope, the wreckage of his crashed vehicle is good enough for him! And of course Lara is always right about everything! Lara says Whitman is an asshole? Whitman is an asshole. Lara says Himiko is alive after hundreds of years? She is alive after hundreds of years. Lara says they have to kill a goddess to leave the island? Sure enough, you have to kill a goddess to leave the island, no matter how incredibly ludicrous the whole idea would seem to a normal human being. And then everyone praises Lara like she's the fudging Messiah or something, and everybody loves her and talks about how awesome she is!
The climax (Lara Croft continued) - And just to put a cherry on it, the one thing, this ONE, SINGLE, thing, they had to do, in order to negate all of this hatred from me towards Lara, was to have her take a short look upon herself and recognize "yes, I've done some bad things". And there's this scene in the climax where sh*t is going down all around, storms are blowing, and Mathias shouts at Lara that everything he did, he did to survive. And when he asks Lara how many people she has killed during her short time on the island (I had lost count long ago, but it must be at least over 200 by this point), I thought to myself "this is it. This is the moment. The moment that she realizes that she has done things an ordinary person wouldn't even consider, but that for her it has become routine. The moment she realizes that she can never go back to what she once was. The moment she realizes that, in her fight for survival, she has become a monster..." Does that happen at all? NOPE!!! She just barks at him that he's insane, and then slaughters her way through some more goons (all the while calling them names, natch), shoots Mathias of a cliff, and then lives happily ever after. The End. Words just fail me...
The beginning - The first few hours, the ones that set the tone for the entire game? Love them. You truly feel the desperation of the characters, how they scramble to survive this whole ordeal in any way possible. Lara apologizing to a deer for killing it truly hammered the point home for me.
The weakness - This ties in to the previous pro of the game, with the beginning and all. The game does an excellent job at making the character of Lara feel vulnerable and out of her element (at least the first few hours). The sequence where you have to guide her through the shanty town with a broken arm in particular serves to reinforce that she is still human.
The environments - Say what you like about the brown graphics, the island looks gorgeous. The area with shipwrecks, the town made out of rusty wreckage, the stormy mountains, it all looks great.
CONS:
QTE's - They are incredibly annoying. What else can I say.
Audiologs - Okay, maybe they're more like paperlogs rather than audiologs, but they still talk over them so whatever. Now, I don't particulary mind audiologs in games. I enjoy collecting them, and it is always nice to be rewarded for collecting miscellaneous mickmacks, and in the case of audiologs, the reward is some optional backstory. The keyword being "optional", as in something that isn't necessary in order to understand what is going on. But TR decides to put in some more vital plot points in its audiologs. Where does Lara come from? Explained in the audiologs. How does the crew feel about being shipwrecked? Explained in the audiologs. Who is Himiko, the final villian of the drama? Explained in the audiologs. Why is Whitman such a douche? What do you know, explained in the audiologs. All of this would have been much better served if the main story explained it to us, rather than these textbooks we find lying around, because they rather important details to the overall plot.
The violence - Okay, I for one do not mind violence as much as I used to, and playing violent videogames is a perfect remedy for those hate-filled urges of mine, but the violence inflicted to Lara in this game is just sickening to watch. You get to watch her get shot, beaten, stabbed, impaled, strangled, drowned, smashed, trashed, and god knows what else. I don't mind it in itself, except for the way the game presents it all. Everytime Lara gets brutally killed, the camera zooms in and changes to the optimal angle for you to see the latest of Lara's gruesome demises, and witness just in what way that long spike enters her body. Couple that with all the dirt that Lara gets smeared all over her face, and the fact that her yelps of pain sometimes sounds more like she's about to have an orgasm, and I feel dirty for playing it. This probably would have been an even bigger con, if not for...
Lara Croft - Aaand, this is where the game makes its biggest misstep. Lara Croft. The main character of it all. No, I don't hate her because she isn't the old Lara. No, I don't hate her because she is angsty 90% of the time (face it, if I were stuck in the same situation, I would feel pretty depressed myself). I hate her because she is a horrible person. And it feels weird, seeing as the first half of the game does such a great job at making you feel just how desperate she is over her whole situation, and how she blames herself for convincing the rest of the crew to go to this godsforsaken place. But once her human bodycount reaches the third digit, any semblance of likability in her is thrown out, once you realize just how much of a monster she is, killing persons without so much as a blink of the eye, all the while calling them "bastards" and "f*ckers". Sure, the cultists are not exactly the most stable bunch, but they have basically the same goal as you: getting out of this godsforsaken place. And you keep overhearing their discussions about how excited they are at the prospect of finally being allowed to go home and live a normal life, seconds before you're inevitably forced to cap them in the head because there's no way to sneak past them. Also, Lara is incredibly unpleasant towards those she doesn't like. Like Whitman. Towards the end, you have this short conversation where Lara narrates to herself how Whitman was a money-grubbing bastard. Dude, Whitman just got chopped to beef stroganoff by two insane samurais, and you are honest to god sitting there and talking trash about him literaly less than a minute after his death?! Sure, he was a dumbass, but come on! What about that helicopter guy who came to rescue you? He came all the way here to save your ass, risking life and limb going through that storm to your signal. And what do you do? You put a freaking gun to his head, and bark at him like a madman! And after the helicopter crashes you never mention him again! Of course Ross gets a funeral and all, but helicopter guy? Nope, the wreckage of his crashed vehicle is good enough for him! And of course Lara is always right about everything! Lara says Whitman is an asshole? Whitman is an asshole. Lara says Himiko is alive after hundreds of years? She is alive after hundreds of years. Lara says they have to kill a goddess to leave the island? Sure enough, you have to kill a goddess to leave the island, no matter how incredibly ludicrous the whole idea would seem to a normal human being. And then everyone praises Lara like she's the fudging Messiah or something, and everybody loves her and talks about how awesome she is!
The climax (Lara Croft continued) - And just to put a cherry on it, the one thing, this ONE, SINGLE, thing, they had to do, in order to negate all of this hatred from me towards Lara, was to have her take a short look upon herself and recognize "yes, I've done some bad things". And there's this scene in the climax where sh*t is going down all around, storms are blowing, and Mathias shouts at Lara that everything he did, he did to survive. And when he asks Lara how many people she has killed during her short time on the island (I had lost count long ago, but it must be at least over 200 by this point), I thought to myself "this is it. This is the moment. The moment that she realizes that she has done things an ordinary person wouldn't even consider, but that for her it has become routine. The moment she realizes that she can never go back to what she once was. The moment she realizes that, in her fight for survival, she has become a monster..." Does that happen at all? NOPE!!! She just barks at him that he's insane, and then slaughters her way through some more goons (all the while calling them names, natch), shoots Mathias of a cliff, and then lives happily ever after. The End. Words just fail me...
...
Hey, here's a crazy idea: why did this game need humans to shoot at anyways? Wouldn't it have been enough with, you know, wildlife? After all, you're stuck on an island in the middle of the ocean, in a place few people ever live to go through, and no hope of rescue in sight. Why the cultists? Couldn't the whole game have been about the struggles of a lone girl in a hostile environment, instead of this psychotic woman slaying a whole bunch of mad people? Surely that would negate a lot of my criticism. Just saying.
Anyway, overall this game was... meh. Aside for my intense hatred for the main character, the overall gameplay is just okay. It works, but is nothing groundbreaking. In my opinion, it is not worth shelling out 50-60 bucks for this game. If you decide to play it, wait until it goes down in price or hits a sale.
That is all.
Yes Yahtzee, BUT WAS IT FUN? I understand about the story-hiccups and the plot-holes and the general bullshit, and I agree with you, but did you actually ENJOY what you got to do (when it wasn't quick-timed)? Because I can stomach a bogus story with bogus premise and characters if playing through it is sufficiently enjoyable.
This has probably already been said but wasn't the tutorial section of tomb raider 4 a kind of prequel to the series? From what I can remember she was into archeology and either studied the subject or was wealthy enough to afford to be able to hire someone experienced in the field to lecture her while they explored some ruins.
surely that was a decent enough reason for the events of everything else in the series. An interest in what she was doing and a little hands on experience.
surely that was a decent enough reason for the events of everything else in the series. An interest in what she was doing and a little hands on experience.