Zero Punctuation: Tomb Raider

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Darth_Payn

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Well, this thread sure went off-topic. The more you guys bring up the name Captain Walker, I think of this guy:
http://marvel.wikia.com/John_Walker_(Earth-616)
And he's a more stand-up guy compared to the Spec-Ops dude.
 

SoMuchSpace

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Yahtzee really didn't know what he was talking about this ZP.I've never seen him so clueless and frankly...dumb while doing a review.

Also surprising how he explicitly spoiled a great moment in SO and FC3.Good job.

No matter what Yahtzee says The new tomb raider is a fantastic game, and finally lara is more than a pair of tits attached to a human body.It's fair enough that he liked her as a pair of tits (as he states), but tyo tell others that this game sucks because they added some real character?Just no.

Also the little 'countdown timer thing'?Yeah, i saw that timer on both Lugo and Adam in Spec Ops.I knew halfway something was going to happen to both of them and it would affect walker.Walker's development is even funded down by their...things.

Yahtzee was just dumb this week.When he has nothing substantial enough to dislike about a game, he will come up with them from thin air.
 

bigman88

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SoMuchSpace said:
Yahtzee really didn't know what he was talking about this ZP.I've never seen him so clueless and frankly...dumb while doing a review.

Also surprising how he explicitly spoiled a great moment in SO and FC3.Good job.

No matter what Yahtzee says The new tomb raider is a fantastic game, and finally lara is more than a pair of tits attached to a human body.It's fair enough that he liked her as a pair of tits (as he states), but tyo tell others that this game sucks because they added some real character?Just no.

Also the little 'countdown timer thing'?Yeah, i saw that timer on both Lugo and Adam in Spec Ops.I knew halfway something was going to happen to both of them and it would affect walker.Walker's development is even funded down by their...things.

Yahtzee was just dumb this week.When he has nothing substantial enough to dislike about a game, he will come up with them from thin air.
The man never gave any indication that he liked the previous tomb raider games because Laura had a pair of tits. He states she had a pair of tits, but that's not why he said he liked the games.
 

goliath6711

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SoMuchSpace said:
Yahtzee really didn't know what he was talking about this ZP.I've never seen him so clueless and frankly...dumb while doing a review.
SoMuchSpace said:
Yahtzee was just dumb this week.When he has nothing substantial enough to dislike about a game, he will come up with them from thin air.
You know, I am really getting sick and tired of this "IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I LIKE, THEN YOU'RE A COMPLETE MORON!" mentality that always seems to crop up from the gaming community. He didn't like it. And guess what? There are other people out there that didn't like it, myself included. And those reasons are no less substantial than yours are for liking it. Deal with it!

SoMuchSpace said:
No matter what Yahtzee says The new tomb raider is a fantastic game, and finally lara is more than a pair of tits attached to a human body.It's fair enough that he liked her as a pair of tits (as he states), but tyo tell others that this game sucks because they added some real character?Just no.
Funny, I already came to the conclusion of her being "more than a pair of tits attached to a human body" back in 1996 when her human body count maxed out at six. Here's a more detailed explanation I posted in another forum if you're interested.

Okay, I'm going to go into my issues with this game and why I have no intention of playing it. And believe it or not, it has absolutely nothing to do with any attempted rape scene.

I've been a fan of the Tomb Raider games since playing the first one on the Sega Saturn. Until this one, I had bought and played every Tomb Raider game with the exception of Angel of Darkness (and despite hearing about how bad it was I still want to play that). The Legend/Anniversary/Underworld trilogy are my favorite games in the franchise despite what popular opinion believes (I never saw anything about the gameplay that said it needed to be scrapped and overhauled). So I had pretty much built up in my mind the type of person that Lara Croft is. (I refuse to use the phrase "badass" because it has long since suffered the same fate as "bling bling".) I have no problem with the idea retooling Lara Croft to bring in a new wave of fans. I have no problem with the idea of showing Lara at an earlier point in her life where she doesn't have all the answers and needs help from others. I have no problems with Lara being shown at a point in her life where she's unsure of herself, not knowledgeable of the dangers she faces and, yes, fearful for her life when she is threatened. All those actually sound like an interesting and unique experience.

But I have HUGE problems with the way this game seems to execute those ideas.

Let's start with Lara's new look. Now I will admit that the previous character design (i.e.: Mega-boobage) caught my attention when I first saw it, but I was very quickly able to look past it to what the character herself is supposed to be. Since then, I've come to look at it the same way as Solid Snake's mullet or Alex Mercer's hoodie, it's just there. Then came the release to show off Lara's new "realistic" look. Now if you're going to choose to do that, then just do it. If you're going to answer the inevitable questions that people will have about the change and why you did it, that's also fine. What you don't do is promote that on the forefront of your advertising among things that you're going to "right the wrongs" the previous games did. And then have media outlets already trumpet this as a godsend despite the fact that it doesn't have any impact on the game itself. All it succeeds in doing is alienating myself as a previous fan by making me look like the only reason I'm a fan is because of the T&A factor, and I don't appreciate that.

So now that you've lost me as a potential customer by insulting the games that made me a fan in the first place and my admiration for them, let's see if you can try to win me back by telling me what differences your game has to offer. And that's when I hear things like "survival horror". And what do I think when I hear "survival horror"? I think of games like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and Fatal Frame. Games where you're alone in an dark, enclosed environment, wading through tight spaces, constantly being on guard for whatever horror is waiting for you around that dark corner you can't quite see around. This is not something that should be a primary feature in a Tomb Raider game. It can be there in little sporadic moments for tension, but not as the main focus of the game. Then as more details about the game come out, I hear comparisons that it plays like a female version of Uncharted. Let me explain why this is not automatically a good thing. When I play a Tomb Raider game, here's what I commonly expect to see mostly. A vast, wide open area (outdoor or indoor) where I can take the scenery in. Solving large, complicated puzzles to open a pathway into an ancient ruin and avoiding booby traps while engaging in the occasional gunfight to keep you on your toes. It's slow and methodical, but it gives you time to think. Now I haven't played the Uncharted games (I don't own a PS3), but from what I've seen, they're kind of like Tomb Raider but more action oriented. The exotic locales are there, but it seems more concerned with how soon it can get Nathan Drake into shooting something or fighting someone first, and dealing with solving puzzles second. The opening to Uncharted 2 has Drake wake up on a train that's dangling off a cliff and the first thing you need to do is climb up it before it falls. That's great for Uncharted because that's its defining characteristic. That's what separates it from Tomb Raider and gives each game its own identity. And if a brand new game franchise wants to copy elements from either one or both, that's one thing. But to see an established game franchise lose the element that made it unique and try to become a clone of the other?

Well, what would be your response if someone said this: Do you know what fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive need? Over the top gore, the ability to show bones snapping, and mutilating finishing moves that kill your opponent in the bloodiest and most violent way. That would make them so much more awesome. Why not? It works in Mortal Kombat.

And finally, there's the characterization of Lara herself. Now as I said before, I have no problem with Lara being portrayed in her early days as someone whose nervous about being in over her head in dangerous situations. But to go so far to the other extreme? To see her begin to lose it when she accidentally impales herself while trying to escape a trap? To watch her completely flip out when something or someone tries to drag her into a cave that she's trying to get out of? To see her have an emotional breakdown when she realizes that no one is coming to save her and she has to get out this on her own? To watch her apologize to a non-threatening deer she killed as some weak justification for why she will nonchalantly gun down bears, tigers, and wolves that will try to kill her in the future? That's the character development that will lead her into becoming the cool confident thrill-seeking Lara that mostly knows of the potential danger that she can get in and tries to plan ahead for that danger, or can figure her way out of a situation on the fly? This Lara that "didn't seek adventure, adventure sought her"? I'm not buying it. I'm not buying that the Lara we knew started out like this, or that this Lara will become that. This Lara appears to be on her way to becoming a cold-blooded killer who wears a permanent scowl on her face, growls every word she says and is willing to gun down any strange guy that looks at her funny if the local cops happen to be looking the other way. And even if they do try to show little signs that somehow this does become the Lara we know, there's a reason why Batman Begins wasn't just two hours of constant scenes of little Bruce Wayne having pants wetting nightmares of the guy that killed his parents coming after him, only to end with him realizing that he "needed to get his shit together" and leave for his globetrotting training sessions on the hope that there will be a sequel that has him coming back as the Batman that we all know. Now all they had to do was to get me to give this game a chance was to remove this Lara and replace her with another female character. Just have you play as her without changing anything about the game but her name. Create a brand new character, use one of the other female characters in this game's party. Hell, you can still call it Tomb Raider (if a character's name is not in the title of a story, then it's not mandatory that they be in it). But this is Lara Croft we're talking about. If you want me to accept your Lara Croft as more than just some cheap marketing ploy, you better damn sure know what you're doing.

Now I know the argument is going to come up saying that I'm judging the game solely on the trailers and they don't represent the final game. And you're right, they don't represent the final game. But what they do represent are the parts of the game that are supposed to convince me into buying the final game. And in that, they failed miserably. I've read everything up to and including the review of the final game on this site to try and convince me that this game is worth playing. And I'm still not convinced. What if the trailers for The Avengers (Assemble) implied that the movie was nothing but "Watch Scarlet Johansson in tight black leather for two and a half hours"? It doesn't matter if that wasn't what the final product was or not. That's what you advertised your product as. And if you lose potential customers that were on the fence because of that, how is it their fault and not yours?

I also find it a little amazing that I started playing Tomb Raider Anniversary yesterday just on a whim and the more I played that, the angrier I got about this game.

SoMuchSpace said:
Also surprising how he explicitly spoiled a great moment in SO and FC3.Good job.
SoMuchSpace said:
Also the little 'countdown timer thing'?Yeah, i saw that timer on both Lugo and Adam in Spec Ops.I knew halfway something was going to happen to both of them and it would affect walker.Walker's development is even funded down by their...things.
The most recent release of Spec Ops: The Line was June 29, 2012. I think that safely puts it under the "If you haven't seen it by now, you're not going to" category. Even so, he didn't reveal the endings to that or Far Cry 3 in a way that spoiled the overall stories to either game. We have you all here to thank for that.
 

kordo

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bigman88 said:
from what your saying and the clips i saw, they threw in some torture/gore porn for the kiddies to lap up. People say that this is an artful and uninhibited way of showing the physical horror that Laura goes through, and how she must dig deep to overcome it. But the fact is Laura(or no one) doesn't have to get shot, beat, strangled, impaled, almost raped, etc. to become the strong confident woman back in the original tomb raider.
You haven't even played the game and yet you feel qualified to judge the game and its players? Fail harder please.

And it's 'Lara' not 'Laura' you dope.

bigman88 said:
represents another bold move by the worlds rulers to desensitize youth as much as possible to senseless violence and mayhem.
Oh noes!!! Will someone please think of the children! :O
 

Graill

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Apr 5, 2012
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What decisions? The game is linear, straight. As for spec ops the line and the phoso chapter....you have no choice, the devs want you to do this for their own reasons. Devs have no clue as to what the word "Choice" actually means.
 

Starker

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Mar 17, 2011
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Carnagath said:
You, along with Spec Ops's devs, seem to be confusing real life violence with videogame violence.
No, I'm saying there's a disconnect between them, and that it's what Spec Ops is commenting on.
 

Taranaich

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Jul 30, 2008
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goliath6711 said:
Funny, I already came to the conclusion of her being "more than a pair of tits attached to a human body" back in 1996 when her human body count maxed out at six. Here's a more detailed explanation I posted in another forum if you're interested.

Okay, I'm going to go into my issues with this game and why I have no intention of playing it. And believe it or not, it has absolutely nothing to do with any attempted rape scene.

I've been a fan of the Tomb Raider games since playing the first one on the Sega Saturn. Until this one, I had bought and played every Tomb Raider game with the exception of Angel of Darkness (and despite hearing about how bad it was I still want to play that). The Legend/Anniversary/Underworld trilogy are my favorite games in the franchise despite what popular opinion believes (I never saw anything about the gameplay that said it needed to be scrapped and overhauled). So I had pretty much built up in my mind the type of person that Lara Croft is. (I refuse to use the phrase "badass" because it has long since suffered the same fate as "bling bling".) I have no problem with the idea retooling Lara Croft to bring in a new wave of fans. I have no problem with the idea of showing Lara at an earlier point in her life where she doesn't have all the answers and needs help from others. I have no problems with Lara being shown at a point in her life where she's unsure of herself, not knowledgeable of the dangers she faces and, yes, fearful for her life when she is threatened. All those actually sound like an interesting and unique experience.

But I have HUGE problems with the way this game seems to execute those ideas.

Let's start with Lara's new look. Now I will admit that the previous character design (i.e.: Mega-boobage) caught my attention when I first saw it, but I was very quickly able to look past it to what the character herself is supposed to be. Since then, I've come to look at it the same way as Solid Snake's mullet or Alex Mercer's hoodie, it's just there. Then came the release to show off Lara's new "realistic" look. Now if you're going to choose to do that, then just do it. If you're going to answer the inevitable questions that people will have about the change and why you did it, that's also fine. What you don't do is promote that on the forefront of your advertising among things that you're going to "right the wrongs" the previous games did. And then have media outlets already trumpet this as a godsend despite the fact that it doesn't have any impact on the game itself. All it succeeds in doing is alienating myself as a previous fan by making me look like the only reason I'm a fan is because of the T&A factor, and I don't appreciate that.

So now that you've lost me as a potential customer by insulting the games that made me a fan in the first place and my admiration for them, let's see if you can try to win me back by telling me what differences your game has to offer. And that's when I hear things like "survival horror". And what do I think when I hear "survival horror"? I think of games like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and Fatal Frame. Games where you're alone in an dark, enclosed environment, wading through tight spaces, constantly being on guard for whatever horror is waiting for you around that dark corner you can't quite see around. This is not something that should be a primary feature in a Tomb Raider game. It can be there in little sporadic moments for tension, but not as the main focus of the game. Then as more details about the game come out, I hear comparisons that it plays like a female version of Uncharted. Let me explain why this is not automatically a good thing. When I play a Tomb Raider game, here's what I commonly expect to see mostly. A vast, wide open area (outdoor or indoor) where I can take the scenery in. Solving large, complicated puzzles to open a pathway into an ancient ruin and avoiding booby traps while engaging in the occasional gunfight to keep you on your toes. It's slow and methodical, but it gives you time to think. Now I haven't played the Uncharted games (I don't own a PS3), but from what I've seen, they're kind of like Tomb Raider but more action oriented. The exotic locales are there, but it seems more concerned with how soon it can get Nathan Drake into shooting something or fighting someone first, and dealing with solving puzzles second. The opening to Uncharted 2 has Drake wake up on a train that's dangling off a cliff and the first thing you need to do is climb up it before it falls. That's great for Uncharted because that's its defining characteristic. That's what separates it from Tomb Raider and gives each game its own identity. And if a brand new game franchise wants to copy elements from either one or both, that's one thing. But to see an established game franchise lose the element that made it unique and try to become a clone of the other?

Well, what would be your response if someone said this: Do you know what fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive need? Over the top gore, the ability to show bones snapping, and mutilating finishing moves that kill your opponent in the bloodiest and most violent way. That would make them so much more awesome. Why not? It works in Mortal Kombat.

And finally, there's the characterization of Lara herself. Now as I said before, I have no problem with Lara being portrayed in her early days as someone whose nervous about being in over her head in dangerous situations. But to go so far to the other extreme? To see her begin to lose it when she accidentally impales herself while trying to escape a trap? To watch her completely flip out when something or someone tries to drag her into a cave that she's trying to get out of? To see her have an emotional breakdown when she realizes that no one is coming to save her and she has to get out this on her own? To watch her apologize to a non-threatening deer she killed as some weak justification for why she will nonchalantly gun down bears, tigers, and wolves that will try to kill her in the future? That's the character development that will lead her into becoming the cool confident thrill-seeking Lara that mostly knows of the potential danger that she can get in and tries to plan ahead for that danger, or can figure her way out of a situation on the fly? This Lara that "didn't seek adventure, adventure sought her"? I'm not buying it. I'm not buying that the Lara we knew started out like this, or that this Lara will become that. This Lara appears to be on her way to becoming a cold-blooded killer who wears a permanent scowl on her face, growls every word she says and is willing to gun down any strange guy that looks at her funny if the local cops happen to be looking the other way. And even if they do try to show little signs that somehow this does become the Lara we know, there's a reason why Batman Begins wasn't just two hours of constant scenes of little Bruce Wayne having pants wetting nightmares of the guy that killed his parents coming after him, only to end with him realizing that he "needed to get his shit together" and leave for his globetrotting training sessions on the hope that there will be a sequel that has him coming back as the Batman that we all know. Now all they had to do was to get me to give this game a chance was to remove this Lara and replace her with another female character. Just have you play as her without changing anything about the game but her name. Create a brand new character, use one of the other female characters in this game's party. Hell, you can still call it Tomb Raider (if a character's name is not in the title of a story, then it's not mandatory that they be in it). But this is Lara Croft we're talking about. If you want me to accept your Lara Croft as more than just some cheap marketing ploy, you better damn sure know what you're doing.

Now I know the argument is going to come up saying that I'm judging the game solely on the trailers and they don't represent the final game. And you're right, they don't represent the final game. But what they do represent are the parts of the game that are supposed to convince me into buying the final game. And in that, they failed miserably. I've read everything up to and including the review of the final game on this site to try and convince me that this game is worth playing. And I'm still not convinced. What if the trailers for The Avengers (Assemble) implied that the movie was nothing but "Watch Scarlet Johansson in tight black leather for two and a half hours"? It doesn't matter if that wasn't what the final product was or not. That's what you advertised your product as. And if you lose potential customers that were on the fence because of that, how is it their fault and not yours?
Sir/Madam, we've never met, but I just want to say that you have beautifully summed up many of the problems I've had with not just this game, but the general development and direction of the games ever since the original. In particular this part:

Then came the release to show off Lara's new "realistic" look. Now if you're going to choose to do that, then just do it. If you're going to answer the inevitable questions that people will have about the change and why you did it, that's also fine. What you don't do is promote that on the forefront of your advertising among things that you're going to "right the wrongs" the previous games did. And then have media outlets already trumpet this as a godsend despite the fact that it doesn't have any impact on the game itself. All it succeeds in doing is alienating myself as a previous fan by making me look like the only reason I'm a fan is because of the T&A factor, and I don't appreciate that.
This is what I truly hate: by saying "Lara isn't just T&A" *any more*, you're effectively vindicating the sexualisation and objectification of a character who was so much more than that, rather than treating it as a problem with the *audience,* not the *character*. It's like focusing on Princess Leia based purely on her slave attire in "Jedi" and ignoring the fact she was a leader of the Rebel Alliance. As if people were right all along to treat Lara as a sex toy, whe really, there shouldn't be any justification for reducing a character to her physique. And now we have nonsense like "Lara is finally a real character now," ignoring that she did in fact have a character, a history, a personality, beyond the cartoonish physique back in 1996. Just because the games didn't delve into deep character motivations doesn't mean they *weren't there.*

Heck, I was alienated enough back in 1996 by being a straight male who liked the game for the exploration and adventure instead of gawking at her pixellated breasts. I really resent the idea that those dumbass classmates who only played the game as a masturbatory aid were implicitly justified by the idea that classic Lara didn't have a character - and more problematically, suggesting that it was OK to view Lara as a sex object because she had large breasts and long legs, when the point is that NO ONE should be viewed as only a sex object regardless of how attractive they are.
 

derektheviking

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Feb 8, 2010
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balladbird said:
GryffinDarkBreed said:
His point, sir, is this blatant misandry is something we shouldn't rightly stand for or allow to happen without bringing it up with the developers. If the roles were reversed and it was a male and all he did was kill endless waves of females, the game would have been protested left and right. Was it intended to be hateful? I doubt it. This is kinda like how Resident Evil 5 wasn't intentionally racist against African people. It just needs to be pointed out to the developers that they need to keep this stuff in mind. Maybe sprinkle in a few female baddies in here and there.
A valid argument, but it's not really fair to condemn Tomb Raider for it, because the sin's not really this game's. It's one of the most prevalent double standards in video games in general (and pop culture, for that matter.) Mooks will always be male. gender diversity in a faceless army is nigh nonexistent. Likewise, any instance of a lead character killing a female character will always be a point of high emotion, because killing a woman is inherently "worse" or more immoral than killing a man. There are alterations, but they're few and far between.

it's even a tv trope: "Men are generic, women are special"

the only reason it seems to be an issue for people in this game is because the lead is a female. While there may be misandrist overtones in the narrative itself, since misandry is the first thing mistaken for feminism by action movies (second to sadism, a' la "I spit on your grave,) the fact that Lara is fighting armies of exclusively male mooks in a video game isn't misandrist, it's just a video game standard, with the only difference being the gender of the person doing the killing.
You seem to have missed the story point that there can't be female mooks, because all the women on the island will have been "tested" for the end-of-plot-event. Beyond that, nigh on every person on the island has been brought there by shipwreck, and merchant shipping is still primarily a male-dominated career.

That brings up my one huge issue with the game - it's just TOO gory! By which I mean the level of background gore is so over-the-top as to prevent normal suspension of disbelief.

The are literally thousands of (dismembered) cadavers on the island, in some cases just sitting in piles near the living quarters. Where the heck did all these people come from? How is anybody left alive on the island with disease-ridden, festering corpses on every doorstep? How can Lara not die with a horrific, feverish infection after walking through what can be described as dead-body-slurry with open wounds?

This is another thing we can compare to Spec Ops: Tomb Raider, a game about an adventurer lost on an island, is more gory than a game about war crimes.

CD seriously need to tone it down, because a game where Lara is able to push a stack of floating disembodied heads down a river of blood to get to where she's going ceases to be threatening and goes way too far into the territory of ridiculousness.