Trump guilty of sexual abuse and defamation

Recommended Videos

gorfias

Unrealistic but happy
Legacy
May 13, 2009
7,453
2,022
118
Country
USA
See, this is exactly what I meant with the "the jury called it larceny, not burglary" analogy. You're resorting to what amounts to a semantic argument that it didn't meet the specific legal definition of rape to falsely imply that the heart of the claim (theft in the analogy, sexual abuse in this case) was ruled as not credible and the court simply pretended otherwise, when in fact the jury found him guilty of a nearly identical but legally distinct crime. To use a more extreme example it's like quibbling that the jury in a murder trial only found the defendant guilty of second degree murder rather than first degree, and using that distinction to pretend that they found it unlikely that the defendant actually killed the victim and therefore the guilty verdict is a sham.
below...


It's not just "talking too much", though, is it?

That's a euphemism you are employing to underplay just how erratic and bizarre Trump's behaviour actually is. Your lawyer friend isn't like Trump at all, is he? He might let his mouth run away with him sometimes, but I bet your friend does not compulsively lie about anything and everything. I bet he doesn't fly off the handle and hurl abuse at anyone who disagrees with or opposes him. Chances are he doesn't constantly boast, and put other people down, and many other strange, grotesque, irrational and self-sabotaging things Trump does.

You and other Republicans can see that Trump's behaviour is well outside normal bounds. But here you call E. Jean Carroll a "loon" because some of her behaviour is outside normal bounds. What sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If she is a "loon", so is Trump.



Asita has answered this. It is just semantic trickery.
Different analogy for your consideration:

Suppose she was a waitress and said he ran out without paying his bill for the meal.

He shows a charge on his credit card to the restaurant at the time he had eaten there. But the tip is really small. If she says he stole the meal (skipped out on paying for it) we don't have a semantics problem. She's lying. It didn't happen.

She states that he was thrusting his dick in her and that it was very painful as she oh so silently fought back against him in relative public. That isn't a sexual assault. It's rape. And if that didn't happen, and it is crazy to think it did. (He wouldn't have known she would be silent as he was thrusting himself in her against her will.) My guess is that is why the jury didn't find as a matter of fact that this happened. But if that didn't happen, why would you believe anything happened at all?

Defendants lie. They do that. But when a Plaintiff does so? Pretty much means you need to toss the case. Untrue in one thing, untrue in all.
 

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,209
118
Different analogy for your consideration:
This analogy is fundamentally broken because the man is presenting hard evidence, whereas Trump cannot for his case.

She states that he was thrusting his dick in her and that it was very painful as she oh so silently fought back against him in relative public. That isn't a sexual assault. It's rape. And if that didn't happen, and it is crazy to think it did. (He wouldn't have known she would be silent as he was thrusting himself in her against her will.) My guess is that is why the jury didn't find as a matter of fact that this happened. But if that didn't happen, why would you believe anything happened at all?
A jury deciding that the facts do not support a person's statement is not the same as them declaring that the person lied. Otherwise the court system would be overrun with perjury cases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dalisclock

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
Belief is not a binary.
You have 0% belief on whatever sliding scale you prefer that she was assaulted.
A jury deciding that the facts do not support a person's statement is not the same as them declaring that the person lied. Otherwise the court system would be overrun with perjury cases.
Oh come on! This is exactly why the case is garbage. Yes, Trump went beyond just denying the events. He claimed she made them up to sell her book. Maybe the facts didn't support that claim for the jurors, but that's not the same as him lying. If everyone was treated the same as Trump in this case, the court system would be overrun with defamation cases.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gorfias

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,209
118
You have 0% belief on whatever sliding scale you prefer that she was assaulted.
Then you are wrong.

And if you have a 0% belief Trump assaulted her, I have serious concerns about your assessment of reality.

Oh come on! This is exactly why the case is garbage. Yes, Trump went beyond just denying the events. He claimed she made them up to sell her book. Maybe the facts didn't support that claim for the jurors, but that's not the same as him lying. If everyone was treated the same as Trump in this case, the court system would be overrun with defamation cases.
I think you might do well to check on how important trust and credibility is in law, and how they affect assessment of evidence in court cases.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
Then you are wrong.

And if you have a 0% belief Trump assaulted her, I have serious concerns about your assessment of reality.
You must assess reality to have a belief on it. You have no reason to go that far. You desire this outcome, and are not interested in questioning the events that lead here.
I think you might do well to check on how important trust and credibility is in law, and how they affect assessment of evidence in court cases.
Sounds like you're saying the court would have penalized Trump based on his character independent of the facts of the case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gorfias

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,209
118
You must assess reality to have a belief on it. You have no reason to go that far. You desire this outcome, and are not interested in questioning the events that lead here.
If you believe there is a 0% chance that Trump assaulted Carroll, then this suggests that you think it is impossible. Right up there with the Earth being flat or the moon being made of green cheese. Or you can say "I don't know", and decline to take any position at all.

Sounds like you're saying the court would have penalized Trump based on his character independent of the facts of the case.
In a dispute between two people's versions of events where one severely lacks credibility, with no other facts, you favour the one that's more credible. Although, of course, there is other evidence available - like Trump on tape boasting about sexually assaulting women, and other women accusing him of assaults both similar to Carroll's and his own taped boasts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cicada 5

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
If you believe there is a 0% chance that Trump assaulted Carroll, then this suggests that you think it is impossible. Right up there with the Earth being flat or the moon being made of green cheese. Or you can say "I don't know", and decline to take any position at all.

In a dispute between two people's versions of events where one severely lacks credibility, with no other facts, you favour the one that's more credible. Although, of course, there is other evidence available - like Trump on tape boasting about sexually assaulting women, and other women accusing him of assaults both similar to Carroll's and his own taped boasts.
If you understand all this, why are you disagreeing with me? This verdict is on who Trump is, the facts of the case are irrelevant and inapplicable to anyone else but him.
 

gorfias

Unrealistic but happy
Legacy
May 13, 2009
7,453
2,022
118
Country
USA
This analogy is fundamentally broken because the man is presenting hard evidence, whereas Trump cannot for his case.



A jury deciding that the facts do not support a person's statement is not the same as them declaring that the person lied. Otherwise the court system would be overrun with perjury cases.
There is a hard fact to which she admits: She states that Trump was thrusting himself into her, raping her and causing her intense pain, which she, for some reason, in relative public, stayed absolutely silent. That is not credible. When the Plaintiff is false in one thing, there must be a rebuttable presumption that she is false in all things. As she can't even tell us what year this 30ish year old "offense" was, horribly prejudicing the Defendant, the judge should have thrown the case out. When the Jury found for her, the Judge had a 2nd chance to overturn the verdict not withstanding the jury finding. We can conclude this was a political lynching. Today it was against someone hated by many here but a precedent is being set and some day, it can happen to someone people here care about.


Oh come on! This is exactly why the case is garbage. Yes, Trump went beyond just denying the events. He claimed she made them up to sell her book. Maybe the facts didn't support that claim for the jurors, but that's not the same as him lying. If everyone was treated the same as Trump in this case, the court system would be overrun with defamation cases.
I ask rhetorically earlier, had she said he grabbed her by the pussy and she said no and he shrugged and walked away, would that have had an impact on book sales. I think it would.
Your point about the system getting overrun by defamation cases? One reason we must never simply believe all women.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,538
4,128
118
There is a hard fact to which she admits: She states that Trump was thrusting himself into her, raping her and causing her intense pain, which she, for some reason, in relative public, stayed absolutely silent. That is not credible.
Says you. We know that is is not an atypical response for being being raped. She is hardly the first woman to have frozen up during sexual assault or rape.

And this is something we've known about for many years, but certain people still deny the occurrence of rape because the victim didn't behave the way they've decided she should have.
 

gorfias

Unrealistic but happy
Legacy
May 13, 2009
7,453
2,022
118
Country
USA
Says you. We know that is is not an atypical response for being being raped. She is hardly the first woman to have frozen up during sexual assault or rape.

And this is something we've known about for many years, but certain people still deny the occurrence of rape because the victim didn't behave the way they've decided she should have.
She states in writing, she did not freeze up and wants people to know that. And I've written previously: it isn't just that she stayed silent. Unless Trump, a multi billionaire and public figure with a reputation to guard didn't care about getting caught raping a woman in relative public, he had to have known, somehow, that she would stay silent. Not credible at all. I'll edit with a link if I can find it (where she proudly states she did not freeze)...
EDIT:
1706523275662.png
 
Last edited:

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,802
3,383
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
1706562585757.jpeg

Wonder how much the next defamation lawsuit is going to cost Trump.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

Ag3ma

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2023
2,574
2,209
118
There is a hard fact to which she admits: She states that Trump was thrusting himself into her, raping her and causing her intense pain, which she, for some reason, in relative public, stayed absolutely silent. That is not credible.
You say it is not credible. And yet this flies in the face of the example of literally millions of rape victims. And like I said, statistically, this includes some of your friends and family.

When the Plaintiff is false in one thing, there must be a rebuttable presumption that she is false in all things.
This, of course, is not true in current practice and should not be the case in principle.

Virtually every witness to an event will be wrong in at least some aspect of that event, because memory is fallible. The logical end result of this principle would be that witness statements were entirely pointless. As a similar concept, when you fill out official documents, they say "X must be true to the best of your knowledge": because you are allowed to make an honest mistake.
 

Asita

Answer Hazy, Ask Again Later
Legacy
Jun 15, 2011
3,261
1,118
118
Country
USA
Gender
Male
below...




Different analogy for your consideration:

Suppose she was a waitress and said he ran out without paying his bill for the meal.

He shows a charge on his credit card to the restaurant at the time he had eaten there. But the tip is really small. If she says he stole the meal (skipped out on paying for it) we don't have a semantics problem. She's lying. It didn't happen.

She states that he was thrusting his dick in her and that it was very painful as she oh so silently fought back against him in relative public. That isn't a sexual assault. It's rape. And if that didn't happen, and it is crazy to think it did. (He wouldn't have known she would be silent as he was thrusting himself in her against her will.) My guess is that is why the jury didn't find as a matter of fact that this happened. But if that didn't happen, why would you believe anything happened at all?

Defendants lie. They do that. But when a Plaintiff does so? Pretty much means you need to toss the case. Untrue in one thing, untrue in all.
Bluntly, gorf, you have made it abundantly clear over the years that you have a terrible habit of working backwards from your conclusion and spitballing variation after variation of events that would allow you to either dismiss the evidence or force it to match your preconceptions. Frequently, this has taken the form of claiming that whatever is in the news must really be a political hit-job from the libs, and that therefore any evidence saying otherwise must be - due to no apparent reason other than where the involved parties appear to fall on the political spectrum - either paper thin or fabricated outright and therefore should have been dismissed from the start.

I have called you out on this before, like when you were gravitating towards provocateurs like Anne Coulter and ideologically driven fringe outlets like FrontPage Magazine to try and paint the prosecution of the January 6 rioters (you know, that event where they battered down doors and swarmed the police for the sake of trying to stop an official proceeding and getting them to illegally flip the result, leading Congress to be evacuated for their safety?) as a politically driven sham of an overreaction. During that conversation, you jumped from one poorly-reasoned pretext to another.

It started with you downplaying them as simple trespassers and insisting that prosecuting them for breaking into Congress to obstruct an official proceeding in hopes of influencing Congress into illegally changing the election results was a massive overreaction. Then you jumped to an egregious misunderstanding of legal impossibility that boiled down to you arguing that since the rioters couldn't legally influence Congress to change the election results, charging them for trying to do something illegal was ridiculous. (Seriously, it was like arguing that charging someone with attempted bank robbery is nonsensical because they would have had no legal claim to the money they tried to steal).

Then when that turned out to be an unconvincing dud, you didn't miss a beat before pivoting to a downright nonsensical conspiracy-theory laden "the Democrats are really to blame" entrapment argument. You argued that the rioters' success in overwhelming security necessarily meant that security must have been unusually lax (kinda a reverse Sideshow Bob defense, wherein successful elements of a criminal endeavor should be treated as somehow mitigating the perpetrators' guilt). Therefore, you argued, the Democrats must have secretly sabotaged the security so that the rioters could break in and put Congress's lives - their own included - at risk all so that they would have an excuse to prosecute them for it because reasons. And then you went on to pivot to claiming that it must have been a false-flag operation coordinated by the Democrats, and therefore that the Democrats must have been the ones responsible for any criminality.

Over the course of the conversation, you made it abundantly clear that you were making bold declarations about the means and motive of the prosecution (and the nefarious implications you presumed would stem from them) without even knowing the actual facts of the case, much less the legal nuances you were trying to invoke to argue your position, seemingly fed to you by very unreliable and fringe sources built on yellow journalism.

And by the end of the discussion you'd also given every indication that your conclusion was based entirely off of political tribalism, that because they were politically aligned with you they had to be innocent, and you were just spitballing any idea that came to you in service of that conclusion. You weren't raising possibilities or balancing probabilities, you were blatantly scrambling to find any explanation that would give you a pretext to dismiss the evidence outright for not agreeing with your preconceptions. To use a crass turn of phrase, you were throwing shit at the wall in the hope that some of it would stick.

And I bring all this up because - not to mince words - we're seeing the exact same thing from you here. You're making similarly bold declarations about a case (and the legal nuance thereof) that you have given every indication that you have not learned the facts of. Rather, based on your arguments, seem to once again be simply looking for a pretext to paint it as sinister because - after they examined the evidence that you only have a perfunctory understanding of after being filtered through third-hand characterization - the jury did not agree with your preconceptions about the case, which is to say the conclusion you had reached without examining that evidence.

Case in point: The jury ruled that while the evidence was strong enough to prove that Trump had sexually abused Carroll, it did not prove that he had used his penis to do so, and because that element could not be proven they convicted him of sexual abuse but not rape (which legally requires the proven use of a penis in sexual abuse). You've perverted that as saying that the jury ruled that the accusation was a lie rather than that the evidence wasn't strong enough to prove that specific element of the sexual abuse that the prosecution otherwise demonstrated occurred. Those are completely different statements, and the latter in no way implies the former. If anything, it's closer to the opposite, implying that the crime was well evidenced in broad strokes but the specifics were not established well enough to reliably conclude that it fell within a subcategory of that crime.

As another analogy, let's say you accuse me of assault with a deadly weapon and the evidence establishes the assault, but not the literal smoking gun needed to make a definitive case that a deadly weapon was involved in that assault. You have circumstantial evidence and your own testimony claiming it was involved, but nothing concrete enough to convince the jury. What you are doing here is the functional equivalent of saying that since they couldn't conclusively prove that I used a deadly weapon in the assault, the charge of assault should be also be dismissed as false. After all, "if [the assault with a deadly weapon] didn't happen, it's crazy to think [the assault] did". That's simply not how it works, and you really should know better.
 
Last edited:

gorfias

Unrealistic but happy
Legacy
May 13, 2009
7,453
2,022
118
Country
USA
Bluntly, gorf, you have made it abundantly clear over the years that you have a terrible habit of working backwards from your conclusion and spitballing variation after variation of events that would allow you to either dismiss the evidence or force it to match your preconceptions. Frequently, this has taken the form of claiming that whatever is in the news must really be a political hit-job from the libs, and that therefore any evidence saying otherwise must be - due to no apparent reason other than where the involved parties appear to fall on the political spectrum - either paper thin or fabricated outright and therefore should have been dismissed from the start.

I have called you out on this before, like when you were gravitating towards provocateurs like Anne Coulter and ideologically driven fringe outlets like FrontPage Magazine to try and paint the prosecution of the January 6 rioters (you know, that event where they battered down doors and swarmed the police for the sake of trying to stop an official proceeding and getting them to illegally flip the result, leading Congress to be evacuated for their safety?) as a politically driven sham of an overreaction. During that conversation, you jumped from one poorly-reasoned pretext to another.

It started with you downplaying them as simple trespassers and insisting that prosecuting them for breaking into Congress to obstruct an official proceeding in hopes of influencing Congress into illegally changing the election results was a massive overreaction. Then you jumped to an egregious misunderstanding of legal impossibility that boiled down to you arguing that since the rioters couldn't legally influence Congress to change the election results, charging them for trying to do something illegal was ridiculous. (Seriously, it was like arguing that charging someone with attempted bank robbery is nonsensical because they would have had no legal claim to the money they tried to steal).

Then when that turned out to be an unconvincing dud, you didn't miss a beat before pivoting to a downright nonsensical conspiracy-theory laden "the Democrats are really to blame" entrapment argument. You argued that the rioters' success in overwhelming security necessarily meant that security must have been unusually lax (kinda a reverse Sideshow Bob defense, wherein successful elements of a criminal endeavor should be treated as somehow mitigating the perpetrators' guilt). Therefore, you argued, the Democrats must have secretly sabotaged the security so that the rioters could break in and put Congress's lives - their own included - at risk all so that they would have an excuse to prosecute them for it because reasons. And then you went on to pivot to claiming that it must have been a false-flag operation coordinated by the Democrats, and therefore that the Democrats must have been the ones responsible for any criminality.

Over the course of the conversation, you made it abundantly clear that you were making bold declarations about the means and motive of the prosecution (and the nefarious implications you presumed would stem from them) without even knowing the actual facts of the case, much less the legal nuances you were trying to invoke to argue your position, seemingly fed to you by very unreliable and fringe sources built on yellow journalism.

And by the end of the discussion you'd also given every indication that your conclusion was based entirely off of political tribalism, that because they were politically aligned with you they had to be innocent, and you were just spitballing any idea that came to you in service of that conclusion. You weren't raising possibilities or balancing probabilities, you were blatantly scrambling to find any explanation that would give you a pretext to dismiss the evidence outright for not agreeing with your preconceptions. To use a crass turn of phrase, you were throwing shit at the wall in the hope that some of it would stick.

And I bring all this up because - not to mince words - we're seeing the exact same thing from you here. You're making similarly bold declarations about a case (and the legal nuance thereof) that you have given every indication that you have not learned the facts of. Rather, based on your arguments, seem to once again be simply looking for a pretext to paint it as sinister because - after they examined the evidence that you only have a perfunctory understanding of after being filtered through third-hand characterization - the jury did not agree with your preconceptions about the case, which is to say the conclusion you had reached without examining that evidence.

Case in point: The jury ruled that while the evidence was strong enough to prove that Trump had sexually abused Carroll, it did not prove that he had used his penis to do so, and because that element could not be proven they convicted him of sexual abuse but not rape (which legally requires the proven use of a penis in sexual abuse). You've perverted that as saying that the jury ruled that the accusation was a lie rather than that the evidence wasn't strong enough to prove that specific element of the sexual abuse that the prosecution otherwise demonstrated occurred. Those are completely different statements, and the latter in no way implies the former. If anything, it's closer to the opposite, implying that the crime was well evidenced in broad strokes but the specifics were not established well enough to reliably conclude that it fell within a subcategory of that crime.

As another analogy, let's say you accuse me of assault with a deadly weapon and the evidence establishes the assault, but not the literal smoking gun needed to make a definitive case that a deadly weapon was involved in that assault. You have circumstantial evidence and your own testimony claiming it was involved, but nothing concrete enough to convince the jury. What you are doing here is the functional equivalent of saying that since they couldn't conclusively prove that I used a deadly weapon in the assault, the charge of assault should be also be dismissed as false. After all, "if [the assault with a deadly weapon] didn't happen, it's crazy to think [the assault] did". That's simply not how it works, and you really should know better.
1) It is a violation of Escapist policy to bring up other arguments in other threads into a separate one.
2) OK, OK, OK, so, Trump raped a woman in relative public with customers and staff milling about the dressing room in which it allegedly happened. She didn't freeze. While he caused her intense pain thrusting his penis into her vagina, which she states is what happened. She didn't make a peep and did not file a police report. But some 30 years later, she makes millions of dollars after he is well prejudiced, telling us about it now and makes millions while doing harm to a politician she opposes. I mean, why would she lie?

You speak of strong "evidence". To my knowledge, the only "evidence" is her word and she can come across as extremely credible. Allegedly she timely told a couple of other New York Times reporters about it and you know how amazingly trustworthy NYT reporters are and for some reason, they didn't run with the story at least in 2016. (That was sarcasm.) Trump does not recall ever having even met her but she does have a photo of her with this multi billionaire who likely meets hundreds of people a month. Is there some other evidence you know about that I do not?

She is the Plaintiff. Untrue in one thing, untrue in all. If the jury didn't believe he did put his penis in her after she affirmatively states he did so, and that caused her intense pain doing so, why should they believe anything else she says? And if for some reason they did this "split the difference" decision, I think the Judge duty bound to throw the verdict out. The Judge failed even worse. He never should have allowed the case to begin with and her lawyer should be disbarred for bringing this bullshit to court in the first place.

When I write of there being a serious problem with our court system, I am writing in this case, if someone can really sell a bullshit case vs. a guy that comes across like a used car salesman, a badly prejudiced innocent person can be railroaded for no other reason than how they can perform in front of other people. We should want better from our court system.

You say it is not credible. And yet this flies in the face of the example of literally millions of rape victims. And like I said, statistically, this includes some of your friends and family.

This [plaintiff untrue in one thing, untrue in all], of course, is not true in current practice and should not be the case in principle.

Virtually every witness to an event will be wrong in at least some aspect of that event, because memory is fallible. The logical end result of this principle would be that witness statements were entirely pointless. As a similar concept, when you fill out official documents, they say "X must be true to the best of your knowledge": because you are allowed to make an honest mistake.
Literally millions of people are raped in relative public by famous billionaires, stay silent and don't file a police report and somehow, the rapist knew they would stay silent? Ridiculous. I concede one must give someone a chance to withdraw a statement. If they don't they can be subject to a charge of perjury. Did she withdraw her statement that he thrust his penis into her vagina, causing her intense pain, that she suffered in absolute silence even through she tells us she didn't "freeze". Is she just mis-remembering what happened? Cuz getting it wrong about a guy sticking his dick in you seems to be a pretty material thing to get wrong.

This is a just a crazy fact patter and I write again, Judge Kaplan should have thrown it out for many reasons. That he didn't is part of why I'm writing our system is broken.
 
Last edited:

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,538
4,128
118
If the jury didn't believe he did put his penis in her after she affirmatively states he did so
Cannot prove. Not doesn't believe.

Literally millions of people are raped in relative public by famous billionaires, stay silent and don't file a police report and somehow, the rapist knew they would stay silent?
Take famous billionaires out and it's true. Obviously. Why does Trump being famous and a billionaire make it impossible in this case.