Trump guilty of sexual abuse and defamation

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Asita

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1) It is a violation of Escapist policy to bring up other arguments in other threads into a separate one.
No, it's a violation of Escapist policy to hound and harass people. To quote:

Targeted Harassment & Bullying
Following a user from thread to thread so you can insult and harassing them, or sending them harassing private messages will be met with an immediate ban.
What you're trying to allude to is a rule for the Current Events boards about keeping grievances within threads. Contrary to your implication, however, my comment does not qualify as a violation of that rule because I am demonstrating that the pattern we're seeing from your arguments in this thread align with a previously noted trend that I am arguing you have not learned from, rather than using it as non-sequitur or the cause of my disagreement here. Ie, a preamble of "you have had trouble with this type of thing in the past. Here's an example of where it happened to show that I'm not making it up. And here's how the takeaway applies to your arguments here".

You speak of strong "evidence". To my knowledge, the only "evidence" is her word and she can come across as extremely credible. Allegedly she timely told a couple of other New York Times reporters about it and you know how amazingly trustworthy NYT reporters are and for some reason, they didn't run with the story at least in 2016. (That was sarcasm.) Trump does not recall ever having even met her but she does have a photo of her with this multi billionaire who likely meets hundreds of people a month. Is there some other evidence you know about that I do not?
Well, for starters, I'm wondering if you're mistaking me for someone else, as I didn't say anything about strong evidence. What I said was that the jury ruled that the evidence was strong enough to convict Trump for sexual assault but did not prove rape. An equivalent statement would be that the jury ruled that the prosecution proved sexual assault but not the specific element of sexual assault needed to declare it rape under the jurisdiction's definitions. It does not speak to the overall power of any bit of evidence, just whether or not it was sufficient for the jury to rule guilt.

More importantly, however, my invocation was to call you out on misrepresenting the ruling as if it said that the subcategory of sexual assault didn't happen, when the actual ruling was that the evidence of that element wasn't strong enough to convict on that element, and that it was fundamentally dishonest to pretend that the jury not being sure about a specific element of the crime meant that the jury should have believed that there was no foundation for the case at all. See again the analogy of a case proving Larceny but not Burglary.

That aside, I'd suggest starting with Kaplan's July 19 ruling. To recap: The plaintiff's claim was corroborated by her own testimony, two outcry witnesses (who testified that Carroll had confided in them about the attack shortly after the fact) and six fact witnesses (who testified to the facts of the case), all of whom testified under oath. Trump offered no counterevidence, instead resorting entirely to insinuations about Carroll and the witnesses in an effort to indirectly discredit them (in a trial principally about defamation, I might remind you), and simply claiming that the event never happened. He neither testified in person, nor did his team present any defense evidence.

He also managed to sabotage his own testimony through some rather severe inconsistencies, like - perhaps most famously - insisting that the case was ridiculous because Carroll was not his type...followed by him promptly mistaking her for his ex-wife in a picture from the time period. That kind of slip-up naturally creates the impression in a jury that the speaker's testimony is unreliable. So you had the Plaintiff testifying under oath, eight Witnesses corroborating the Plaintiff's testimony, and the Defense's only defense being Trump's attestations that none of those people should be believed because reasons...attestations that he himself then undermined.

It's not surprising that the jury found that the preponderance of evidence supported the plaintiff when the plaintiff supplies corroboration and the defense pretty much leaves it at "nuh-uh!" and then proceeds to undermine their own position. And before you try to argue "she could have lied" again, do remember that she and the witnesses testified under oath. You aren't just accusing one person of lying, you're accusing them all of perjury.

She is the Plaintiff. Untrue in one thing, untrue in all. If the jury didn't believe he did put his penis in her after she affirmatively states he did so, and that caused her intense pain doing so, why should they believe anything else she says? And if for some reason they did this "split the difference" decision, I think the Judge duty bound to throw the verdict out. The Judge failed even worse. He never should have allowed the case to begin with and her lawyer should be disbarred for bringing this bullshit to court in the first place.
Again, not how it works. For starters, the jury did not rule that it was untrue. They ruled that they didn't have enough evidence to convict on that element. Though there is some overlap between those concepts on a Venn Diagram, there is a severe difference between them and it's dishonest to equivocate between them as you have been doing here. Second, court cases routinely split charges to varying degrees and the jury will decide for some of those charges and against others. See again the Larceny vs Burglary analogy, and the Assault vs. Assault with a Deadly Weapon analogy.

For further consideration, let's say someone is on trial for first degree murder. The jury can well find that the defendant killed the guy, but also that the prosecution did not prove the premeditation needed for it to be first degree murder. So they rule against the first degree murder charge but rule for a second degree murder charge. You wouldn't turn around and say "Untrue in one thing, untrue in all. If the jury didn't believe that the murder was premeditated after the prosecution affirmatively states it was, why should they believe anything the prosecution says? And if for some reason they did this 'split the difference' decision of Second Degree Murder, I think the Judge is duty bound to throw the verdict out."

Everything about the argument you're making is wrong. These kinds of nested charges are standard operating procedure. The jury doesn't come up with it or propose it. They are told by the court to rule on them individually as a matter of course. "On the matter of the defendant forcibly touching the plaintiff, how do you find?" "Guilty". "On the matter of sexually abuse, how do you find?" "Guilty". "On the matter of rape, how do you find?" "Not Guilty". It is not an all or nothing process, a ruling of "not guilty" does not translate to "untrue", nor does that carry over to the guilty charges, and the judge certainly doesn't get to overrule the jury for not presenting all or nothing results. And just because you don't like Carroll doesn't mean that her lawyer should be disbarred for representing her.
 
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gorfias

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No, it's a violation of Escapist policy to hound and harass people. To quote:



What you're trying to allude to is a rule for the Current Events boards about keeping grievances within threads. Contrary to your implication, however, my comment does not qualify as a violation of that rule because I am demonstrating that the pattern we're seeing from your arguments in this thread align with a previously noted trend that I am arguing you have not learned from, rather than using it as non-sequitur or the cause of my disagreement here. Ie, a preamble of "you have had trouble with this type of thing in the past. Here's an example of where it happened to show that I'm not making it up. And here's how the takeaway applies to your arguments here".



Well, for starters, I'm wondering if you're mistaking me for someone else, as I didn't say anything about strong evidence. What I said was that the jury ruled that the evidence was strong enough to convict Trump for sexual assault but did not prove rape. An equivalent statement would be that the jury ruled that the prosecution proved sexual assault but not the specific element of sexual assault needed to declare it rape under the jurisdiction's definitions. It does not speak to the overall power of any bit of evidence, just whether or not it was sufficient for the jury to rule guilt.

More importantly, however, my invocation was to call you out on misrepresenting the ruling as if it said that the subcategory of sexual assault didn't happen, when the actual ruling was that the evidence of that element wasn't strong enough to convict on that element, and that it was fundamentally dishonest to pretend that the jury not being sure about a specific element of the crime meant that the jury should have believed that there was no foundation for the case at all. See again the analogy of a case proving Larceny but not Burglary.

That aside, I'd suggest starting with Kaplan's July 19 ruling. To recap: The plaintiff's claim was corroborated by her own testimony, two outcry witnesses (who testified that Carroll had confided in them about the attack shortly after the fact) and six fact witnesses (who testified to the facts of the case), all of whom testified under oath. Trump offered no counterevidence, instead resorting entirely to insinuations about Carroll and the witnesses in an effort to indirectly discredit them (in a trial principally about defamation, I might remind you), and simply claiming that the event never happened. He neither testified in person, nor did his team present any defense evidence.

He also managed to sabotage his own testimony through some rather severe inconsistencies, like - perhaps most famously - insisting that the case was ridiculous because Carroll was not his type...followed by him promptly mistaking her for his ex-wife in a picture from the time period. That kind of slip-up naturally creates the impression in a jury that the speaker's testimony is unreliable. So you had the Plaintiff testifying under oath, eight Witnesses corroborating the Plaintiff's testimony, and the Defense's only defense being Trump's attestations that none of those people should be believed because reasons...attestations that he himself then undermined.

It's not surprising that the jury found that the preponderance of evidence supported the plaintiff when the plaintiff supplies corroboration and the defense pretty much leaves it at "nuh-uh!" and then proceeds to undermine their own position. And before you try to argue "she could have lied" again, do remember that she and the witnesses testified under oath. You aren't just accusing one person of lying, you're accusing them all of perjury.



Again, not how it works. For starters, the jury did not rule that it was untrue. They ruled that they didn't have enough evidence to convict on that element. Though there is some overlap between those concepts on a Venn Diagram, there is a severe difference between them and it's dishonest to equivocate between them as you have been doing here. Second, court cases routinely split charges to varying degrees and the jury will decide for some of those charges and against others. See again the Larceny vs Burglary analogy, and the Assault vs. Assault with a Deadly Weapon analogy.

For further consideration, let's say someone is on trial for first degree murder. The jury can well find that the defendant killed the guy, but also that the prosecution did not prove the premeditation needed for it to be first degree murder. So they rule against the first degree murder charge but rule for a second degree murder charge. You wouldn't turn around and say "Untrue in one thing, untrue in all. If the jury didn't believe that the murder was premeditated after the prosecution affirmatively states it was, why should they believe anything the prosecution says? And if for some reason they did this 'split the difference' decision of Second Degree Murder, I think the Judge is duty bound to throw the verdict out."

Everything about the argument you're making is wrong. These kinds of nested charges are standard operating procedure. The jury doesn't come up with it or propose it. They are told by the court to rule on them individually as a matter of course. "On the matter of the defendant forcibly touching the plaintiff, how do you find?" "Guilty". "On the matter of sexually abuse, how do you find?" "Guilty". "On the matter of rape, how do you find?" "Not Guilty". It is not an all or nothing process, a ruling of "not guilty" does not translate to "untrue", nor does that carry over to the guilty charges, and the judge certainly doesn't get to overrule the jury for not presenting all or nothing results. And just because you don't like Carroll doesn't mean that her lawyer should be disbarred for representing her.
So, you think he plunged his penis into her in relative public? Untrue in one thing, untrue in all. This simply isn't credible, regardless of how many NYT reporters she has saying, "Oh yeah, she told us about that too!" If she lied about that, and I think it crazy to think she didn't, then she could be lying about it all. Maybe she isn't. But an honest jury has to find that she can't meet the burden of proof in these circumstances.

You write that the jury isn't calling this untrue (they should have: it is ridiculous) but unproven? The same evidence is at the heart of both charges (rape and assault): her testimony. Due to the lack of credibility here, the case should have been tossed by the judge.

EDIT: And yes, talking about other threads, I think, risks infracting on Escapist rules. We're talking about one thing. Can you imagine the derailment if we start talking about Ray Epps and the inside job that 1/6 was all over again? Takes us far away from what we're supposed to be talking about.
 

CaitSeith

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Do you think Trump rammed his penis into this woman's vagina, raping her, in a store with customers and staff milling about?
I think it's possible. Customers and staff don't expect sexual assault to happen in a store, and they'd probably think it's consensual and none of their business.

gorfias said:
And that she stayed absolutely silent for no reason as she did it.
Yes. It fits the pattern of a victim being sexually assaulted by someone with loads of influence.

gorfias said:
He either knew she would stay silent or didn't care about getting caught with his pants literally down as he raped a woman in relative public?
I'd say both; I already said why.

EDIT: I also think he believes he can bounce back from losing a civil case lawsuit as easy as if it was a mere parking ticket.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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My question to you still stands. Do you think Trump rammed his penis into this woman's vagina, raping her, in a store with customers and staff milling about? And that she stayed absolutely silent for no reason as he did it. He either knew she would stay silent or didn't care about getting caught with his pants literally down as he raped a woman in relative public?
Remember, Trump is a very rich man who has basically never had people say no to him, and who has almost never faced any real consequences for his actions. There's no reason that he wouldn't think he could get away with rape.

He has literally said that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue and he wouldn't lose any voters. That is a direct quote from him, among other choice quotes like "grab them by the pussy" and about ogling teen beauty pageant contestants in their dressing rooms. He literally thinks he's untouchable.

He's also known to be friends with other rich rapists, like Jeffery Epstein and Vince McMahon. The saying "show me your friends and I'll show you who you are" applies. People who are friends with rapists probably don't have many scruples when it comes to rape.

So yes, I think it's entirely probable that he could rape someone in public and not be worried about any potential consequences because he's never had to face consequences for his actions in his entire life.

Your entire defense of Trump is that he wouldn't do it because he thinks that raping someone would be bad for his public image. This is a man who thinks making fun of the disabled isn't bad for his public image, that being a racist isn't bad for his public image, and that murder wouldn't be bad for his public image. The fact that he's a crude asshole is a feature to his constituency, and if he told his fans that Carroll deserved to be raped that statement would probably be met with applause.
 
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Ag3ma

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So, you think he plunged his penis into her in relative public? Untrue in one thing, untrue in all.
I repeat, this is just not true.

I have been called as a witness to a trial for an assault charge. At one point the victim had been knocked to the floor and his assailant was kneeling over him and punching down. I could not see the victim at this point (just the assailant) due to what I remembered and reported to the police as a low wall obstructing my view. A few weeks after giving my report, I walked past the scene of the crime and noticed it was actually a low fence, not a wall.

So therefore, under your logic, my entire witness statement is invalid: untrue in one thing, untrue in all. Who cares that the events I recall match everyone else's, I could identify the assailant and victim, I got one thing wrong therefore it's all void.

* * *

Secondly, as has already been pointed out, this is more akin to a charge. Let's say someone is accused of two crimes. They are acquitted of one due to lack of evidence and found guilty of the second. Your logic here is that if they are acquitted of any charge laid against them, then they must be acquitted on all the others: "untrue in one thing untrue in all".

This is also patently not how the legal system actually works, or should work.
 

Hades

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Famous billionaires have something to lose
Do they though? Or does their obscene wealth and privileged class protect them from any consequences. Trump in particularly has known all his life that people let you get away with far more if you're part of the American upper class, and he managed to combine that protection with the zealous loyalty that a base has to their demagogue.

Trump has every reason to believe he won't be losing anything. He even got away with doing a coup. Famous billionaires just don't get punished much in the US. Even with the likes of Epstein they only made him pay the price for his crimes after protecting him became impossible.

I think that also partially explains the difference in loyalty the Republicans had between Nixon and Trump. Nixon was an upstart who wasn't born into wealth and so could be discarded, but Trump is an embodiment of the American elites and is thus ''one of us'' as far as the political class is concerned, even if they don't have any respect for him otherwise.
 
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gorfias

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Here's a crazy idea: how about we teach men to not rape women!
Given that non-elite men who would do such a thing go to prison, I pretty much think we do this already. An anti-social man doesn't much care what we try to teach them about proper social behavior.
I repeat, this is just not true.

I have been called as a witness to a trial for an assault charge. At one point the victim had been knocked to the floor and his assailant was kneeling over him and punching down. I could not see the victim at this point (just the assailant) due to what I remembered and reported to the police as a low wall obstructing my view. A few weeks after giving my report, I walked past the scene of the crime and noticed it was actually a low fence, not a wall.

So therefore, under your logic, my entire witness statement is invalid: untrue in one thing, untrue in all. Who cares that the events I recall match everyone else's, I could identify the assailant and victim, I got one thing wrong therefore it's all void.

* * *

Secondly, as has already been pointed out, this is more akin to a charge. Let's say someone is accused of two crimes. They are acquitted of one due to lack of evidence and found guilty of the second. Your logic here is that if they are acquitted of any charge laid against them, then they must be acquitted on all the others: "untrue in one thing untrue in all".

This is also patently not how the legal system actually works, or should work.
Your story sounds plausible to me. None of it sounds like an outright lie. The idea that Trump walked into this woman's dressing room and solicited her, grabbing her by the pussy sounds plausible. That he held her into the wall as she struggled hard against him, took his dick out and rammed it into her vagina in relative public, causing her intense pain, and she tells us she didn't freeze, but for some reason didn't make a peep, and I think he'd have to known she wouldn't make a peep, sounds like an outright lie. If she lied about that, and her only material evidence about the 1st charge is her word, which is now no longer good to me (and, I would think, any reasonable unbiased person), the case has to be thrown out.

Others in this thread have said they believe this more likely than not. At some point we just have to respectfully agree to disagree.
Do they though? Or does their obscene wealth and privileged class protect them from any consequences. Trump in particularly has known all his life that people let you get away with far more if you're part of the American upper class, and he managed to combine that protection with the zealous loyalty that a base has to their demagogue.

Trump has every reason to believe he won't be losing anything. He even got away with doing a coup. Famous billionaires just don't get punished much in the US. Even with the likes of Epstein they only made him pay the price for his crimes after protecting him became impossible.

I think that also partially explains the difference in loyalty the Republicans had between Nixon and Trump. Nixon was an upstart who wasn't born into wealth and so could be discarded, but Trump is an embodiment of the American elites and is thus ''one of us'' as far as the political class is concerned, even if they don't have any respect for him otherwise.
There's a line in "My Favorite Year" where Peter O'Toole's character says that, as he is rich and famous, he gets away with a ton of #$#$. But as a famous wealthy guy, he also gets ##@$# for a ton of stuff he didn't do. I'm betting this could apply to just about any rich famous guy.
Rich famous people can and do go to prison. $5 million (now a $83!) is a fine Trump will be able to pay. But had he done as Carroll charges he really could (likely would) have gone to prison for 20 years EDIT: had she timely reported it to the police and they used a rape kit to confirm. And, yelled. Loud. To others milling about the shop screaming she was being raped. I don't think any reasonable unbiased person could believe Carroll at this point but, as I wrote above, I guess we just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one.
 

Silvanus

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Your story sounds plausible to me. None of it sounds like an outright lie.
Right, so all you actually have here is personal incredulity.

And it's clear you're basing this on sheer ignorance of how sexual assault happens and what it involves. You can insist you think a victim should/would act in a certain way all you like, but ultimately you're just assuming. We have decades of research and survivor testimony telling us otherwise, and your simple incredulity isn't worth very much against that.
 
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BrawlMan

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@gorfias, this is why I can never fully respect you can you beyond disgust me right now. You're also the same person that tried to make excuses and defend those terrorists during January 5th at the Capitol. All you're doing is doing the same thing here sucking the dick of a biatch in a box stand. If he had did the same to your wife would you be going this far to defend to make excuses for Trump? Would you believe him over your own wife or daughter for that matter? If you answer yes to either of these, then as far as I'm concerned, all hope is lost with you.
 
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gorfias

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The vast majority of men who commit rape do not.
Not being a contrarian, but how the heck would you know? At best some self reporting and stats pulled from someone's butt? And do you really want to try to say our society DOESN'T condemn rape and tell men not to do it? Do YOU think less of a man that rapes a woman? I know I do. I'm sure I picked that disdain up from someplace within US society.

Right, so all you actually have here is personal incredulity.

And it's clear you're basing this on sheer ignorance of how sexual assault happens and what it involves. You can insist you think a victim should/would act in a certain way all you like, but ultimately you're just assuming. We have decades of research and survivor testimony telling us otherwise, and your simple incredulity isn't worth very much against that.
I think I have the sensibilities of an unbiased, reasonable person, at least in this case. It is the rest of the people on this board, including apparently you, that find it more probable than not that a woman was violently raped in relative public by a famous multi billionaire, says she did not freeze, he caused her incredible pain plunging his erection into her vagina, for some reason she didn't make a peep to staff and customers milling about and did not file a police report. My observation is not just about her bizarre behavior but that alleged of Trump. That he, at least from what I'm gleaning here, either believed for some reason his rape victim would stay silent, or he knew she likely would start screaming rape, people would come to her aid and maybe see it was Trump and gleep, "Hey! You're that `you're fired!' guy, winked and tell him to carry on. This is pure fantasy land. But if you believe that, I don't think anything I type is going to change minds.

@gorfias, this is why I can never fully respect you can you beyond disgust me right now. You're also the same person that tried to make excuses and defend those terrorists during January 5th at the Capitol. All you're doing is doing the same thing here sucking the dick of a biatch in a box stand. If he had did the same to your wife would you be going this far to defend to make excuses for Trump? Would you believe him over your own wife or daughter for that matter? If you answer yes to either of these, then as far as I'm concerned, all hope is lost with you.
1) If it doesn't violate Escapist policy to bring up other thread issues in a thread, it should be as you derail what we actually are writing about. I've no interest in rehashing why, for instance, Vivek Ramaswamy calls 1/6 an "inside job" here.

2) You finding yourself disgusted isn't an argument. There are those that are advancing the following that I find uncredible: I write about those on this thread appear to" find it more probable than not that a woman was violently raped in relative public by a famous multi billionaire, says she did not freeze, he caused her incredible pain plunging his erection into her vagina, for some reason she didn't make a peep to staff and customers milling about and did not file a police report. My observation is not just about her bizarre behavior but that alleged of Trump. That he, at least from what I'm gleaning here, either believed for some reason his rape victim would stay silent, or he knew she likely would start screaming rape, people would come to her aid and maybe see it was Trump and gleep, "Hey! You're that `you're fired!' guy, winked and told him to carry on. This is pure fantasy land. But if you believe that, I don't think anything I type is going to change minds."

I don't think I am being disgusting. I think that no reasonable judge would have allowed a case with this fact pattern to go forward. I don't think you're disgusting. I just don't think you have a leg to stand on here.
 

BrawlMan

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it doesn't violate Escapist policy to bring up other thread issues in a thread, it should be as you derail what we actually are writing about. I've no interest in rehashing why, for instance, Vivek Ramaswamy calls 1/6 an "inside job" here
It's not much of a derailed it when you keep making the same mistakes over and over again. You did it so you might as well own up to it. The evidence is still there so don't try to weasel or hide behind it. You having response doesn't surprise me in the slightest.


) You finding yourself disgusted isn't an argument. There are those that are advancing the following that I find uncredible: I write about those on this thread appear to" find it more probable than not that a woman was violently raped in relative public by a famous multi billionaire, says she did not freeze, he caused her incredible pain plunging his erection into her vagina, for some reason she didn't make a peep to staff and customers milling about and did not file a police report. My observation is not just about her bizarre behavior but that alleged of Trump. That he, at least from what I'm gleaning here, either believed for some reason his rape victim would stay silent, or he knew she likely would start screaming rape, people would come to her aid and maybe see it was Trump and gleep, "Hey! You're that `you're fired!' guy, winked and told him to carry on. This is pure fantasy land. But if you believe that, I don't think anything I type is going to change minds."

I don't think I am being disgusting. I think that no reasonable judge would have allowed a case with this fact pattern to go forward. I don't think you're disgusting. I just don't think you have a leg to stand on here.
It's amazing you have all these paragraphs and they say absolutely nothing. Still didn't answer my question either.

So everything you're saying is a load of shit then. You are way too predictable. I do not feel sad for you, and for your sake, you better hope it's worth (not really and you know it) sucking the dick of a guy that doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone but himself.
 
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Thaluikhain

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And do you really want to try to say our society DOESN'T condemn rape and tell men not to do it?
Yes. Or rather, rape is condemned, but society has such a nebulous form of rape that actual instances of it happening don't count.

People knew Jimmy Savile was abusing kids for decades, but they didn't care. People knew Harvey Weinstein was abusing and raping women for years (maybe decades), they didn't care. Of particular note is his sexual harassment of Angelina Jolie, who apparently informed her then husband Brad Pitt...who still was fine with working for him, and acted surprised when it became official some years later. Might have gotten the couple wrong there, read that a while ago.

Woody Allen has long been accused of sexual abuse, and lots of people, including those who've campaigned against sexual abuse, are happy to work with him. Roman Polanski admitted to raping a kid, fled the US, and people are fine with working with him. He's had a long and successful career despite being known to everyone as a rapist. Sometimes they'll issue a fauxpology about it later.

In all those cases (ok, baring Allen who hasn't been convicted, just accused), people knew the person was a rapist, and that fact wasn't a huge problem for a lot of them. People who weren't on the bread line thought it was fine working with them.

Now, you can argue that those aren't the norm, because they are all rich, famous types, and that's true. Rich famous types are the ones we tend to here about and remember. But what about Steubenville? That place is memorable because, IMHO, it has an unusual name. Steubenville.

That the town took the rapist's sides after there was no doubt that they were rapists, against the victim, is not unusual. It is well documented that they did, it is well documented that this happens a lot.

Now, if you asked anyone in Steubenville, anyone that decided to work for Polanski, some time before what they thought of rape, I daresay most of them would have said that it was an appalling crime. And meant it. Hell, even the rapists might have said it and meant it. But the time comes when someone they know and like or who can get them an job turns out to be a rapist, and somehow that's different. This one doesn't count. Sure, it technically was rape, but he/they aren't bad people, you know? There's a million and one reasons why any rape that happens isn't a real rape.

Society might condemn rape in the abstract, but the reality is rather different.
 

gorfias

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It's not much of a derailed it when you keep making the same mistakes over and over again. You did it so you might as well own up to it. The evidence is still there so don't try to weasel or hide behind it. You having response doesn't surprise me in the slightest.



It's amazing you have all these paragraphs and they say absolutely nothing. Still didn't answer my question either.

So everything you're saying is a load of shit then. You are way too predictable. I do not feel sad for you, and for your sake, you better hope it's worth (not really and you know it) sucking the dick of a guy that doesn't give a rat's ass about anyone but himself.
I do not know what you would want besides what I've written for Trump's defense, that you write I'm not saying anything. I'm saying I find the fact pattern offered un credible. Perhaps an illustration? Real case: woman smashes her car into a truck. When interviewed she explains and truly believes that she is Batman, and smashing her car into that truck would save the world. I doubt she was found criminally liable due to insanity, but civilly, I'm sure the court didn't pretend she was correct and actually is Batman.

Yes. Or rather, rape is condemned, but society has such a nebulous form of rape that actual instances of it happening don't count.

People knew Jimmy Savile was abusing kids for decades, but they didn't care. People knew Harvey Weinstein was abusing and raping women for years (maybe decades), they didn't care. Of particular note is his sexual harassment of Angelina Jolie, who apparently informed her then husband Brad Pitt...who still was fine with working for him, and acted surprised when it became official some years later. Might have gotten the couple wrong there, read that a while ago.

Woody Allen has long been accused of sexual abuse, and lots of people, including those who've campaigned against sexual abuse, are happy to work with him. Roman Polanski admitted to raping a kid, fled the US, and people are fine with working with him. He's had a long and successful career despite being known to everyone as a rapist. Sometimes they'll issue a fauxpology about it later.

In all those cases (ok, baring Allen who hasn't been convicted, just accused), people knew the person was a rapist, and that fact wasn't a huge problem for a lot of them. People who weren't on the bread line thought it was fine working with them.

Now, you can argue that those aren't the norm, because they are all rich, famous types, and that's true. Rich famous types are the ones we tend to here about and remember. But what about Steubenville? That place is memorable because, IMHO, it has an unusual name. Steubenville.

That the town took the rapist's sides after there was no doubt that they were rapists, against the victim, is not unusual. It is well documented that they did, it is well documented that this happens a lot.

Now, if you asked anyone in Steubenville, anyone that decided to work for Polanski, some time before what they thought of rape, I daresay most of them would have said that it was an appalling crime. And meant it. Hell, even the rapists might have said it and meant it. But the time comes when someone they know and like or who can get them an job turns out to be a rapist, and somehow that's different. This one doesn't count. Sure, it technically was rape, but he/they aren't bad people, you know? There's a million and one reasons why any rape that happens isn't a real rape.

Society might condemn rape in the abstract, but the reality is rather different.
Good points. I do concede having read what is available about the Polanski case, I have no idea why Whoopi Goldberg, for instance, would say that wasn't "rape-rape". I recall a sports figure (a coach at a college?) caught molesting a kid in the showers by another coach who, regardless of his own personal disgust for what he saw, to my knowledge, did nothing to bring that coach to justice. His story came about later when the suspect was already on his way to facing justice. EDIT: I think this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Sandusky
 

BrawlMan

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do not know what you would want besides what I've written for Trump's defense, that you write I'm not saying anything. I'm saying I find the fact pattern offered un credible. Perhaps an illustration? Real case: woman smashes her car into a truck. When interviewed she explains and truly believes that she is Batman, and smashing her car into that truck would save the world. I doubt she was found criminally liable due to insanity, but civilly, I'm sure the court didn't pretend she was correct and actually is Batman.
That has nothing to do with anything. All you been doing is making shallow excuses, justifications, and goal posting. Drop the act, because you're embarrassing yourself right now. Pretty much no one is buying it aside from another individual.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Good points. I do concede having read what is available about the Polanski case, I have no idea why Whoopi Goldberg, for instance, would say that wasn't "rape-rape".
IIRC, it was that Polanski was known to the victim, who accepted an invitation to his place. That's one of the classic reasons why a rape isn't rape. Wasn't a stranger jumping someone from a dark alley at night, doesn't count.
 

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I think I have the sensibilities of an unbiased, reasonable person, at least in this case.
I don't think anybody here could possibly take that seriously. You're taking this position mostly because you let your political sympathies determine whether you think someone is guilty or innocent.

It is the rest of the people on this board, including apparently you, that find it more probable than not that [...]
And we're back to resorting to personal incredulity again.

Once again: we know for a fact, from decades of research, that sexual assault can and does 1) happen in public-adjacent places; 2) induces victims to seize up or stay quiet, whether from fear or shock; 3) often goes unnoticed by others at the time and gets reported long after the fact.

These facts aren't in serious dispute. Every professional and organisation that works with survivors, or researches sexual abuse, testifies to these being common phenomena and factors in assault. Your personal disbelief, based on zero relevant experience, is not enough.
 
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gorfias

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I don't think anybody here could possibly take that seriously.



And we're back to resorting to personal incredulity again.

Once again: we know for a fact, from decades of research, that sexual assault can and does 1) happen in public-adjacent places; 2) induces victims to seize up or stay quiet, whether from fear or shock; 3) often goes unnoticed by others at the time and gets reported long after the fact.

These facts aren't in serious dispute. Every professional and organisation that works with survivors, or researches sexual abuse, testifies to these being common phenomena and factors in assault. Your personal disbelief, based on zero relevant experience and obvious ignorance of the topic, is not enough.
1) She wasn't "public-adjacent" but in a public space. A dressing room in a public store with staff and customers milling about.
She states she did not freeze up. So, 2) doesn't seem relevant.
3) well, yeah, if, while not "freezing up" a woman in incredible pain from being violated doesn't make a peep for some reason and doesn't file a police report, the assault could go unnoticed even in this fact pattern.

I think @Thaluikhain offers more food for thought: the reality that we do know of instances where a sexually dangerous person had enough power to get away with crimes for extended periods.
 

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1) She wasn't "public-adjacent" but in a public space. A dressing room in a public store with staff and customers milling about.
Dude, dressing rooms are the definition of "public-adjacent", not fully public. Its extremely easy to be out of sight for an extended period in a dressing room-- that's actually their purpose.

She states she did not freeze up. So, 2) doesn't seem relevant.
Not "freezing" =/= not feeling incapable of shouting or fighting.

We know assault happens in this way. Its a documented fact.