Guatemala riots over budget, set fire to congress building over healthcare.

Recommended Videos

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
That's funny, I could have sworn I have to work for a living, and a bunch of other people who happened to inherit stuff don't.
Ah, but see, if you work more hours than there are in a day, or find some niche in which your compensation is great enough that you can be one of the very few who elsewise build a fortune, you may reach a point where other people work and you just get stuff.

Wait.
 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
Ok, that such is only your subjective opinion aside, capitalism fails at your criterion too, and people die as a result of that. Capitalism is a system which requires there to be unemployment; when there isn't unemployment, wages rise until there is. Capitalists don't like this much, so they typically make sure that doesn't happen in the first place*: the more unemployment, the stronger the negotiating position of employers, and capitalism gives the employer all the power to dictate terms and policy. So much for facilitating work.



The idea that people ought not to be divided into one class that works and another that owns and becomes entitled to the surplus value produced by others' labor through that ownership is neither hateful nor horrible. The opposite is anti-human.

edit: aww, they got rid of footnotes?

*avoiding this in the southern United States was a crucial motivation for the transatlantic slave trade, for example
It is my opinion. I think economics is a soft science. You can't reliably run a experiment and expect the same results, most of the analysis is in retrospect. Some of the things that are now considered as consensus are themselves pretty hand-wavey garbage, like how "money is a commodity".
Back to the point - Capitalism doesn't require unemployment, nor did I say it does. It facilitates employment - makes it easier to find work.
 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
That's funny, I could have sworn I have to work for a living, and a bunch of other people who happened to inherit stuff don't.
Ah, but see, if you work more hours than there are in a day, or find some niche in which your compensation is great enough that you can be one of the very few who elsewise build a fortune, you may reach a point where other people work and you just get stuff.

Wait.
"Waaaaaaa Why wasn't I born a Saudi Price"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ravinoff

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
It is my opinion. I think economics is a soft science. You can't reliably run a experiment and expect the same results, most of the analysis is in retrospect. Some of the things that are now considered as consensus are themselves pretty hand-wavey garbage, like how "money is a commodity".
Back to the point - Capitalism doesn't require zero unemployment, nor did I say it does. It facilitates employment - makes it easier to find work.
Capitalism leaves people unemployed and requires people to work to live.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thaluikhain

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
Last edited:

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
No, you're thinking of capitalism.

Also, the luddite movement wasn't the caricature you want to believe it was.
How do you know what I believe? We can make an honest discussion.
Progress makes certain jobs obsolete. Who has the obligation to keep those obsolete jobs?
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
How do you know what I believe? We can make an honest discussion.
Progress makes certain jobs obsolete. Who has the obligation to keep those obsolete jobs?
The way we organize our economy is why certain jobs changing due to a more productive machine or process coming into fashion also causes some people to be fired rather than, for example, more leisure time for workers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SupahEwok

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
The way we organize our economy is why certain jobs changing due to a more productive machine or process coming into fashion also causes some people to be fired rather than, for example, more leisure time for workers.
The job is entirely obsolete. Does that mean that this person would then go on to spend all of their time on leisure?
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
The job is entirely obsolete. Does that mean that this person would then go on to spend all of their time on leisure?
There are countless ways to deal with the impact of technology, so yes, no, and both yes and no: there's no reason to pick just one answer when there is a universe of particulars. We may examine one case:

If a production process somehow managed to make all labor obsolete, then sure-- but that's not what would happen under capitalism. Everyone would just starve even though food would be more plentiful than ever.
 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
There are countless ways to deal with the impact of technology, so yes, no, and both yes and no: there's no reason to pick just one answer when there is a universe of particulars. We may examine one case:

If a production process somehow managed to make all labor obsolete, then sure-- but that's not what would happen under capitalism. Everyone would just starve even though food would be more plentiful than ever.
Are you responsible for people starving because you didn't donate to charity?

edit: explanation - Keeping this production process active despite its obsolescence is charity.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
Are you responsible for people starving because you didn't donate to charity?
No.

And neither socialists nor communists advocate charity as a response to social ills.
 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
No.

And neither socialists nor communists advocate charity as a response to social ills.
I apologize, the post you replied to was incomplete.
I'll reiterate:
Keeping this production process active despite its obsolescence is charity.

edit: Do you think unemployment is a social ill?
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
I apologize, the post you replied to was incomplete.
I'll reiterate:
Keeping this production process active despite its obsolescence is charity.
And neither socialists nor communists advocate doing such.

edit: Do you think unemployment is a social ill?
Unemployment is certainly a social ill as it manifests under capitalism. Under capitalism, unemployment causes bankruptcy, homelessness, and often exacerbates other conditions. Capitalism is the disease, however: the way it treats unemployment is merely a symptom.
 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
Yeah, I'm not sure "communism is anti-human" is a stellar argument to be making in the "let the weak perish, I need a haircut and nachos" era.
You like science, don't ya? Survival of the fittest is scientific.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
You like science, don't ya? Survival of the fittest is scientific.
There is a pretty clear difference between the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, which is a description of the history of life on earth and how it came to be so varied and Social Darwinism, which is a prescription to let people die out of some nebulous idea that the remaining people living will be in some way superior.
 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
There is a pretty clear difference between the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, which is a description of the history of life on earth and how it came to be so varied and Social Darwinism, which is a prescription to let people die out of some nebulous idea that the remaining people living will be in some way superior.
Social Darwinism is in fact Darwinism itself, if it were removed some millennia from the current year. Why did the Neanderthals die out? Was it social darwinism, or natural darwinism?
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
6,132
3,706
118
Country
United States of America
Social Darwinism is in fact Darwinism itself, if it were removed some millennia from the current year. Why did the Neanderthals die out? Was it social darwinism, or natural darwinism?
The whole premise of your argument here is beyond silly.