234: Not That There's Anything Wrong With That

[ThrobbingEgo]

Yes, but the point of the argument was that it was flawed. If you took the whole quote, you'd see it was followed by a smiley, and then a request for a mac-friendly version of the mod so he could play it.

Your reply is redundant to the author's intent.

And your reply is redundant to mine.

How so?

 

[Legion]

You can't blame people for not wanting to play a gay man. When playing Prey I felt no attachment to the main character because he was a native American struggling with his ancestry. Nothing could be more remote from my European, all-white background.

May I assume that you're not a drugged up super-soldier? If you aren't, then how could relate to this character even if he was white? What about playing as Lara Croft (for example)?

Are you saying that you don't like playing characters who aren't copies of you?

Agreed. Game characters are not always supposed to resemble the player (I mean, really, how could they? possibly?) unless they are RPG's.

I can't relate to Dom in Gears of War 2 for example, because I haven't got a wife, and I have never lost one either. Doesn't mean I resent playing the character in the game though.

Well the first time round I didn't read it because I assumed (accurately) that reading it would make me feel uncomfortable. But putting aside my moral disapproval of homosexuality

I don't understand were you're coming from- why is it you have a moral disapproval of gays?

I "disapprove" of people who have kids. Sounds far more easily justified than your opinion- almost 7 billion people on earth, that's far more than enough, so anyone having more than one child is immoral.

Because, as the Bible says, marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Sex should only happen in marriage. Therefore homosexuality is a sin. But Christians shouldn't discriminate against homosexuals because we all sin, homosexuality is just another to add to the list of the sins of mankind.

Without going into too much detail: You realise the Bible was written by humans right? Fallible, sinning humans? By your own logic as humans are capable of sin (and therefore able to be wrong and make mistakes) there is no reason to take the word of a book written by them to heart.

Especially considering the Bible forbids eating shrimp and wearing clothes of mixed fibres, not to mention the fact that you should never eat/buy/use more than you need of anything. Unless you follow everything in the Bible then you can't fairly use it as a reason for your beliefs, not in relation to morality at least.

 

[ben---neb]

Because, as the Bible says, marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Sex should only happen in marriage. Therefore homosexuality is a sin. But Christians shouldn't discriminate against homosexuals because we all sin, homosexulaity is just another to add to the list of the sins of mankind.

Along with wearing mixed threads and shaving. Is that a cotton/polyester blend? Straight to hell.

Ho hum, if those rules even exist they'll be in the Old Testament cerimonial law that was overthrown when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus' death did not overthrow his commands on the scantity of marriage therefore it did not overrule the Bible's teaching that homosexuality is a sin.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

 

[Angerwing]

Yes, but the point of the argument was that it was flawed. If you took the whole quote, you'd see it was followed by a smiley, and then a request for a mac-friendly version of the mod so he could play it.

Your reply is redundant to the author's intent.

And your reply is redundant to mine.

How so?

Because as I said before, I wasn't addressing the arguer, I was addressing the argument. I've seen that argument used before in all seriousness. Who cares if he's actually being sarcastic? It's sort of difficult to tell on an online forum. The smiley could have been put there so he didn't look like a dick.

I thought my point was very valid in the context of this thread. I perhaps shouldn't have worded it like I did ("Your point has little basis."), but what I said still stands.

 

[Angerwing]

Ho hum, if those rules even exist they'll be in the Old Testament cerimonial law that was overthrown when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus' death did not overthrow his commands on the scantity of marriage therefore it did not overrule the Bible's teaching that homosexuality is a sin.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

So how's that religious buffet? The "homosexuality is evil" came from Leviticus. The book that, you know, also spawned the laws I mentioned. Also, if your woman is having her period, she is unclean. It is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord if you are to touch her during this event.

 

[NicolasMarinus]

You can't blame people for not wanting to play a gay man. When playing Prey I felt no attachment to the main character because he was a native American struggling with his ancestry. Nothing could be more remote from my European, all-white background.

May I assume that you're not a drugged up super-soldier? If you aren't, then how could relate to this character even if he was white? What about playing as Lara Croft (for example)?

Are you saying that you don't like playing characters who aren't copies of you?

I know, I know, logical fallacy, but still. Your point has little basis.

Edit: I got Prey confused with Haze. Doesn't change the point, but I just thought I'd clear that up.

I don't like cowboy movies, because the setting has no interest for me. I don't like movies like Sense and sensibility because the pains and woes of some 19th century British girl don't interest me. Seeing a macho tear through scores of enemies is fun. Playing one, well... You can't beat that.

By which I mean, the theme must interest you. Only then are you willing to empathise with characters. A lot of people will not be interested in gay men and how they experience life. I would be, since a couple of my friends are gay.

 

[megamanenm]

Because, as the Bible says, marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Sex should only happen in marriage. Therefore homosexuality is a sin. But Christians shouldn't discriminate against homosexuals because we all sin, homosexulaity is just another to add to the list of the sins of mankind.

Along with wearing mixed threads and shaving. Is that a cotton/polyester blend? Straight to hell.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

A choice? I didn't realise your sexuality was a choice. When did you decide your sexuality? You didn't. You're born with it.

 

[siddif]

I actually think there should be more games with LBGT characters in them i mean if its accepted in most other mediums why not games? Homophobia will never go away if people continuously walk on eggshells around the issue Gay people are still people first and sexuality second as we all are.

Should a fictional characters orientation trouble anyone? should a real persons? A gay man does not pass this on to other men nor does he try to mount every male in sight, just like a straight male doesn't try to hump every female in sight.

Though one representation im against its the overuse of extremely flamboyant gays as not all are like that and its usually used as a negative stereotype though i am aware that some people are like this its shouldn't be the only type shown.

 

[ben---neb]

SNIP

SNAP

Well the first time round I didn't read it because I assumed (accurately) that reading it would make me feel uncomfortable. But putting aside my moral disapproval of homosexuality

SNAP

SNIP

Without going into too much detail: You realise the Bible was written by humans right? Fallible, sinning humans? By your own logic as humans are capable of sin (and therefore able to be wrong and make mistakes) there is no reason to take the word of a book written by them to heart.

Especially considering the Bible forbids eating shrimp and wearing clothes of mixed fibres, not to mention the fact that you should never eat/buy/use more than you need of anything. Unless you follow everything in the Bible then you can't fairly use it as a reason for your beliefs.

Sure, the Bible was written by humans but God was behind the writing of the Bible and kept them from error. Look at it this way: your God, you want to reveal the truth about yourself, your going to make 100% sure the humans don't write anything wrong. Because of this then it is still logically sound to take the Bible was being true.

And the shrimp/mixed fibres laws were part of the cerimonial law that was overthrown when Jesus died on the cross (but as marriage still stands then homosexuality is still wrong. Also homosexuality was just part of the general Law of God that will never be overturned along with Ten Commandments, etc). And the eat/buy thing is merely a reminder that Christians are called to be senisble with their wealth and not waste it on useless things.

 

[Angerwing]

You can't blame people for not wanting to play a gay man. When playing Prey I felt no attachment to the main character because he was a native American struggling with his ancestry. Nothing could be more remote from my European, all-white background.

May I assume that you're not a drugged up super-soldier? If you aren't, then how could relate to this character even if he was white? What about playing as Lara Croft (for example)?

Are you saying that you don't like playing characters who aren't copies of you?

I know, I know, logical fallacy, but still. Your point has little basis.

Edit: I got Prey confused with Haze. Doesn't change the point, but I just thought I'd clear that up.

I don't like cowboy movies, because the setting has no interest for me. I don't like movies like Sense and sensibility because the pains and woes of some 19th century British girl don't interest me. Seeing a macho tear through scores of enemies is fun. Playing one, well... You can't beat that.

By which I mean, the theme must interest you. Only then are you willing to empathise with characters. A lot of people will not be interested in gay men and how they experience life. I would be, since a couple of my friends are gay.

First of all, just pointing out that I'm not calling you a homophobe. Now that that's down.

If the homosexual aspect isn't a theme of the story, as in the author's mod, then wouldn't it not matter whether the player relates to homosexuals? If it's the fun of macho murder, then it shouldn't matter whether the person is gay or not, if that isn't a significant aspect of the story. I know a small effeminate gay guy who wants to become an interior designer, and a huge gay rugby player who could destroy you and your 2 best friends, blindfolded.

I agree with you if homosexuality is a part of the story. If the person isn't interested in experiencing that storyline, due to whatever reason, that's fine. But when the gay aspect is only mentioned once, in an ambiguously phrased line at the start of the game, then it shouldn't matter what sexuality the PC is.

 

[John Funk]

Guys, this doesn't need to turn into a debate about the Bible. Keep the discussion polite.

 

[NicolasMarinus]

Cool article. It always amazes me how an audience feels cheated when an author defies their expectations. It's like they think it's their story, with their characters. The audience doesn't always realize that it's following characters separate from itself, that its just along for the ride.

I've heard a bit about the author's mods on TIGSource, and I think I'll check them out. ...Right after I finish Research and Development.

Hm, I disagree. Games are interactive stories where you (ideally) have choices. In part the story is yours. Like modern art, it is a shared experience, only completed when the viewer views and interprets the images as he sees fit.

I do like what you say about the author defying expectations. Well put.

And who defines what those possible choices are? The author. A game's a constructed medium.

The author's control just becomes more obvious when a game follows a linear plot.

If you play Call of Duty, you will make different decisions than me how to traverse a field. True, the designers defined you had to cross it, but you decide how. It is a shared experience between the developer and the player. No two playthroughs are the same.

 

[RebelRising]

I've said it before, and I will say it again: wonderful article.

 

[ben---neb]

Ho hum, if those rules even exist they'll be in the Old Testament cerimonial law that was overthrown when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus' death did not overthrow his commands on the scantity of marriage therefore it did not overrule the Bible's teaching that homosexuality is a sin.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

So how's that religious buffet? The "homosexuality is evil" came from Leviticus. The book that, you know, also spawned the laws I mentioned. Also, if your woman is having her period, she is unclean. It is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord if you are to touch her during this event.

Not just Leviticus also references in Romans, Timothy, and Jude (http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-christian-perspective) And as marriage between a man and woman and sex only in marriage is a constant commandment throughout the whole Bible then it still stands today.

In general the technique used for working out which cermonial laws were overthrown and which weren't goes: is it specifically rejected in the NT (such as the sacrifrice of animals)? Or is it still supported? Also a certain degree of common sense should be applied like in the case of Shrimp and mixed fibres.

And of course it should be remembered that Christianity is not about a list of rules people have to keep. No one can earn salvation through works. We all sin whether that be homosexulaity or some other thing. We all deserve to go to hell, we all need to repent and ask for the salvation granted to us by Jesus's death on the cross.

 

[Lusty]

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

Out of interest, what makes you think it's a choice? Did you choose to be straight? I'm not gay, but that's not by choice, it's just who I am. I can't change that.

Which leads to the next obvious question; if God hates gays so much, why does he keep making them?

Don't answer if you don't want, I think the thread has been derailed a bit too much already. And don't take this as religous baiting on my part. I'm just genuinely interested.

 

[ben---neb]

Because, as the Bible says, marriage should only be between a man and a woman. Sex should only happen in marriage. Therefore homosexuality is a sin. But Christians shouldn't discriminate against homosexuals because we all sin, homosexulaity is just another to add to the list of the sins of mankind.

Along with wearing mixed threads and shaving. Is that a cotton/polyester blend? Straight to hell.

In addition sexuality is by far and away a more important choice than clothing or hair coverage.

A choice? I didn't realise your sexuality was a choice. When did you decide your sexuality? You didn't. You're born with it.

I should have been more specific though (sorry). Homosexuality is a temptation that only some men will feel. It falls under the broader temptation of lust which ALL men feel. Sex outside of marriage, masturbation, lustful thoughts, adultery, homosexulaity are all lustful temptations that all men suffer from although each man will suffer differently. And we have to resist these temptations. Giving into temptation is always a choice. So yeah, some men are born with a greater propensity to be homosexual that makes resisting this temptation harder for them to do but they still have to obey God's law and God will igve them the grace to resist sin.

 

[Angerwing]

Also a certain degree of common sense should be applied like in the case of Shrimp and mixed fibres.

This is why you lose.

So you're saying it's common sense to not, not eat shrimp, but it's also common sense to disregard gays entirely? Because, if the laws can be over-ridden by 'common sense', why have laws at all? I want to know how you think you know which laws are more important to God. Perhaps God's favourite creature is the humble prawn, and specifically wanted the shellfish law to be followed above all others?

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Cool article. It always amazes me how an audience feels cheated when an author defies their expectations. It's like they think it's their story, with their characters. The audience doesn't always realize that it's following characters separate from itself, that its just along for the ride.

I've heard a bit about the author's mods on TIGSource, and I think I'll check them out. ...Right after I finish Research and Development.

Hm, I disagree. Games are interactive stories where you (ideally) have choices. In part the story is yours. Like modern art, it is a shared experience, only completed when the viewer views and interprets the images as he sees fit.

I do like what you say about the author defying expectations. Well put.

And who defines what those possible choices are? The author. A game's a constructed medium.

The author's control just becomes more obvious when a game follows a linear plot.

If you play Call of Duty, you will make different decisions than me how to traverse a field. True, the designers defined you had to cross it, but you decide how. It is a shared experience between the developer and the player. No two playthroughs are the same.

It goes a little deeper than that. You inherently can't make an action the developers didn't program into the game. Your characters and settings are all defined. True, you can be given choices too, but those options are also defined.

The audience always plays a part, of course, the game is made for an audience, but the game can't write new lines of dialogue as a player continues on his own merry path.

No matter how many permutations or combinations of paths you can choose.

 

[Mirrored Jigsaw]

I've had long aspirations to work in making video games. I want to be in a David Jaffe position, or Todd Howard, of Cliff Blizensky, and when I get there, I want to make a game with a gay main character. I'm never immersed into games either, and it's not entirely because I can't relate to the character on an orientation basis, but certainly that fact remains.

In Fallout 3, there's a women in Megaton that you can buy sex from. Throughout the entire game, she is your only option. In Dragon Age: Origins, you are able to make a choice, and none of your options are prostitutes. I wasn't so sure I would like the game in the first place, but when I found that out, it was the next game on my shopping list. I didn't want Dragon Age because of the steamy man-love; I wanted it because I could finally play a character in an RPG similar to myself.