Good article. Well written and and it let me see things from the perspective of a gay gamer, which I don't often get to do. I might download that mod.
234: Not That There's Anything Wrong With That
- Thread starter Robert Yang
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Hey he lives in Fersno, anyways sorry about stupid people who hate gay people for no reason other than being scared of something out of the normal. Oh and the word gay and Fag don't mean homosexuall anymore really, and while it does bring up those painfully memorys for you people who don't have the same insight or experance can't really understand what you feel and sometime you just have to take that into account, and I wounld not mind a game about a gay main charater.
Well, I hate to repost when it's easily search-able in the last page, but here you are:ben---neb said:
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Does the Lord's influence extend to translations? How about the decisions about which books are cannon and which were to become apocrypha? Where do you draw the line? People blaspheme God's words every day to further their own power and greed, so I don't think that it's that far a stretch to consider that the modern Bible might have also been tainted by man's sinful nature. I think it's far more logically sound to question what we hear of God from other men and make our own decisions based on what He tells us through our hearts.ben---neb said:
The biggest problem I have with lumping homosexuality in with the rest of the sins of lust is that I can't figure out how homosexuality is hurting someone. All the other sins you mentioned either hurt yourself or someone else, but I cannot see homosexuality as being harmful unless you count choosing not to have children as a sin as well."
I felt exactly the same way, actually. The article is very well written, but I still have a hard time believing he didn't expect this to become an issue. As I mentioned earlier, you can't drop a controversial topic within the first few seconds of gameplay like that and be surprised that people focus on it.fenrirvii said:
This is the best article I've read on this site in..well...ever. It had the most thought provoking content, and provided me with a previous insight into how somebody gay would view and take in content like this. Bravo.
I'm going to opt out of the theological debate that is forming in this thread, because I don't want to post and repost 1,000 times.
I'm going to opt out of the theological debate that is forming in this thread, because I don't want to post and repost 1,000 times.
Ah, I worked out what happened, I PMed my answer to you but for some reason it didn;t make it.boholikeu said:
Here's my answer:
It's interesting that you should talk about translation and the compling of the Bible. Translation wise the same argument could apply that God would work to stop errors and you should study just how the Bible was translated: by men of extreme learning who would double/triple check that their translation was not in error. And even then consiering that maybe a small error would occur would it destroy the huge truths in the Bible? Unlikely. It would only affect one verse out of thousands.
And as to its compliation the intersting thing about that was that it all came together without any formal council or committee and with incredibly little disput conisdering the argumententive nature of mankind. We have to see God's hand directing the whole church to accept the Bible as he wants it.
And yes, men can use the Bible as they want, they can change the truth, we must question everything we HEAR but no what we READ in the Bible. The Bible is 100% true (yes, yes, similes, metpahors, poems are there as well). But humans 'explaining' the Bible might not be. Just because you may not like the what the Bible is saying does not make it false.
I'm about as straight, white and male as it's possible to be; and I have never used "gay", "fgt" or any other words meaning homosexual as an insult. Nor for that matter have I ever used "bi*ch", "whore" or "slut", nor any racial epithet. It's nothing moral (other than the age-old adage of "treat others as you'd want to be treated yourself"), it's just not something I would ever do. I don't understand why people do. To anybody who has, I'd ask the question: what's the point? Why speak to others like that? What do you accomplish? Does it fulfil some kind of emotional need? Do you have a douchebag quota that needs to get filled?Robert Yang said:
The mod, while interesting in approach, is one that I haven't played myself but I do not think it would appeal to me. Not in so much that the character is gay (as it comes up only at the beginning from what I understand) but that the game-play itself is not what I seek. But that being said you are not required to play out the character as if he was Leisure Suit Larry, so it becomes a small throw away detail. Much less important then the feet on the woman in portal even, as those are only seen and never explained at all.
Finding out that people cannot get past the gay aspect to get into the game-play annoys me a bit. As others on here have stated the characters that we usually play are far removed from who we are; why would an offhand reference to the characters sexuality be any different then discovering that the character is half dragon?
You also cannot find a reason to object to the same sex lifestyle without running to religion, as the rest of society?s laws have nothing against it. Which is something I have hope for. Religion used to be the whole of the law, thus a worry about eating improperly cooked pork became against the moral laws to do. With the police force being separate from the religious authority in my country there is no automatic connection between moral laws and enforced laws.
Instead the enforced laws are the ones that society as a whole has evolved to require. No killing ? reduces work force and is harmful to society. No stealing ? is disrespectful of the right of property and ownership. No slavery ? people have individual rights and cannot be treated like property. Etc. With in that context of the good of the society same sex relationships break no laws. Caring relationships benefit society, regardless of who is involved.
I have played Army of Two and I found myself wishing that the writers had been able to give the characters a more romantic relationship, playing it over the top for laughs even. They got so close to that edge as it was, (as most buddy comedies have the same story arc as love stories, but without that confusing sex aspect) but never were willing to walk over it.
Returning to my first point, I could see objecting to a game if it forced you to play out a certain sexual relationship as part of game play. You have to score with the princess before you can get to the next map/level. Being forced to do anything is objectionable, and I personally found myself wanting the leisure suit Larry games to allow more freedom in the answers then the very narrow game-play they gave. I wouldn?t have launched the game if Larry was looking for a same sex partner, but I do not think I would play the games now if they were coming out new. Back in the 90?s I was a teen, sex was confusing and this game allowed some of that fantasy. The most recent console Larry I never touched because I no longer enjoy that escapist fantasy.
With more and more games allowing some level of freedom in the characters we start to lose the scripted story, but the story the players are allowed to make up for their characters becomes richer. In the text adventure days your character was more or less whoever you thought you were as you explored the cave. Then graphics caught on and we saw who we were and it became more limited. I am That Guy, in the purple pants, blue sweater and black cape. Tomorrow? We may be able to script the overall story beginning to end. Or perhaps another step forward into sensory replacement will bring a return to simple stories once more.
Finding out that people cannot get past the gay aspect to get into the game-play annoys me a bit. As others on here have stated the characters that we usually play are far removed from who we are; why would an offhand reference to the characters sexuality be any different then discovering that the character is half dragon?
You also cannot find a reason to object to the same sex lifestyle without running to religion, as the rest of society?s laws have nothing against it. Which is something I have hope for. Religion used to be the whole of the law, thus a worry about eating improperly cooked pork became against the moral laws to do. With the police force being separate from the religious authority in my country there is no automatic connection between moral laws and enforced laws.
Instead the enforced laws are the ones that society as a whole has evolved to require. No killing ? reduces work force and is harmful to society. No stealing ? is disrespectful of the right of property and ownership. No slavery ? people have individual rights and cannot be treated like property. Etc. With in that context of the good of the society same sex relationships break no laws. Caring relationships benefit society, regardless of who is involved.
I have played Army of Two and I found myself wishing that the writers had been able to give the characters a more romantic relationship, playing it over the top for laughs even. They got so close to that edge as it was, (as most buddy comedies have the same story arc as love stories, but without that confusing sex aspect) but never were willing to walk over it.
Returning to my first point, I could see objecting to a game if it forced you to play out a certain sexual relationship as part of game play. You have to score with the princess before you can get to the next map/level. Being forced to do anything is objectionable, and I personally found myself wanting the leisure suit Larry games to allow more freedom in the answers then the very narrow game-play they gave. I wouldn?t have launched the game if Larry was looking for a same sex partner, but I do not think I would play the games now if they were coming out new. Back in the 90?s I was a teen, sex was confusing and this game allowed some of that fantasy. The most recent console Larry I never touched because I no longer enjoy that escapist fantasy.
With more and more games allowing some level of freedom in the characters we start to lose the scripted story, but the story the players are allowed to make up for their characters becomes richer. In the text adventure days your character was more or less whoever you thought you were as you explored the cave. Then graphics caught on and we saw who we were and it became more limited. I am That Guy, in the purple pants, blue sweater and black cape. Tomorrow? We may be able to script the overall story beginning to end. Or perhaps another step forward into sensory replacement will bring a return to simple stories once more.
I wouldn't say having an affair is on the same level as being gay... or that having sex outside of marriage is as bad as having an affair... But what would I know? I only have experience with 1 of the 3.ben---neb said:
I enjoyed the article, and have no quarrel with gay people, inside or outside of games. In fact, I daresay, I love my gay friends.
If homosexuality is truly a sin, than by definition all sex is a sin, and I will be sinning day and night without repentance.ben---neb said:
Ah yes but sex is allowed (in fact positively encouraged) within marriage and marriage should be between a man and a woman. So no, not all sex is a sin, only sex outside of marriage is.Wolveria said:SNIPben---neb said:
If homosexuality is truly a sin, than by definition all sex is a sin, and I will be sinning day and night without repentance.ben---neb said:
I got a good chuckle out of the rail gun comment.
Reading the religious comments here, makes me remember something about how God gave man the freedom to choose. So, how is it that we can have laws that are arguably based on some moral code in a religious text that effectively takes away the freedom of choice given to us by that same religious text?
I suspect more than the lack of sales a game would generate by putting gay characters into a video game as NPCs is along the same lines why games don't have children running around. The game "publishers" are terrified that the Grand Theft Auto syndrome would take root and people would live out their fetishes of murder & deviancy in an otherwise unblemished world of vampires, zombies, aliens, theft, murder, war, hot coffee, & 3d rat extermination.
Reading the religious comments here, makes me remember something about how God gave man the freedom to choose. So, how is it that we can have laws that are arguably based on some moral code in a religious text that effectively takes away the freedom of choice given to us by that same religious text?
I suspect more than the lack of sales a game would generate by putting gay characters into a video game as NPCs is along the same lines why games don't have children running around. The game "publishers" are terrified that the Grand Theft Auto syndrome would take root and people would live out their fetishes of murder & deviancy in an otherwise unblemished world of vampires, zombies, aliens, theft, murder, war, hot coffee, & 3d rat extermination.
I will completely ignore the argument going on and say instead that I never realized that there was a discrimination against gays in videogames, and this article has shone the light on things for me. I liked it.
See, Catholicism doesn't see it that way, in fact the opposite: faith without works is meaningless. Just wanted to toss that jab in. We also don't really give a damn about homosexuals, the official teaching is, of course, that it's "wrong", but that it's wrong to treat homosexuals poorly, as well.ben---neb said:
To get to the real meat, I'm another who'd like to see more (NOT STEREOTYPICAL "FAIRIES"!!) homosexuals in games. In my opinion, one of the biggest reasons so much homophobia exists (I was shocked that someone actually tried to spit on the author, though, maybe I'm too sheltered in my rural existence) is because, for a lot of people, the only exposure to homosexuals they get is the media portrayals of the prancing, lisping "fairy", or the news shots of hairy guys in assless leather chaps at a pride parade. I spent 7 years in the Army, I knew plenty of guys who were definitely gay, but didn't exhibit a single one of the popular stereotypical behaviors (except, of course, being sexually attracted to dudes). Of course, the college kids who "come out" and immediately adopt the stereotypical mannerisms don't help this, maybe I'm wrong, but I've always felt like, "Dude, you're gay. Your balls didn't fall off and your vocal cords didn't tighten overnight. Stop being a walking stereotype, it's hard to take you seriously/" Of course, people can adopt any mannerisms they want, I feel bad for straight guys cursed with a lisp, though.
Give us popular representation of real people, who are gay, not the stereotypes. The author's mod is a step in the right direction, but throw it in more than once. I remember a short story by David Drake (I guess an offshoot of his "Tank Lords" series that I never really read); at the end, one of the characters, a stereotypical tough guy who at one point was horrendously injured and took it all with a grunt and a curse, is discussing his plans for the evening. He has a date--not with the "big blond", but the new kid, a scrawny little guy, "But he's just so...cute!" And that's it, just in stride; his sexuality isn't made into a big deal, because it isn't.
Wanna get society over this bullshit? Stop throwing in token stereotypes. If somebody put a "Step'in Fetchit" black character in a game ("LAWDY, LAWDY, FEETS DON' FAIL ME NOW!!", there'd be justifiable outrage. Why do we treat homosexuality this way, then? (Or is this a teething period, like there was with blacks: do stereotypes now lead the way for realistic portrayals later? Let's hope.)
Regardless of all that, the author's mod is a move in the right direction, and his cognizance that calling people "Fags" in games isn't meant as an insult to his sexual orientation is good, too. Doesn't make it right, but I admire sensibility. Besides, isn't teabagging your opponent, you know, kinda gay?
first of all, disclosure: I'm hetero and have no gay friends (that I am aware of), and personally find the idea of gay sex a bit icky. But other than that, I don't have a problem with homosexuality. also, I have two or three personalities residing in my head at the moment so I may swerve off the road here and there.
Cabbages, oooh yeah.
See what I mean?
Now, whilst I can in part sympathise with the author vis a vis the reactions he got to the insertion of his character's sexuality into the game, I would have to disagree that this is something you can do and expect it to go without comment.
Heterosexuality is the norm in our species; after all it is what allows us to propagate the human race. As such, it's deeply rooted in many aspects of our culture, the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, the games we play very often have apparent sexual metaphors attached, some very much by design, some by accident (like when someone makes a new corporate logo that to them signfies the synergy and drive of a dynamic business but to some guy looks like an erect penis or a pair of titties, and when he points it out you can never see anything but that in the logo - just look at how they drew Norway/Sweden/Finland on a Euro coin and you'll see what I mean...)
So therefore it's normal to put heterosexual symbology into movies, books and games that heterosexual men design. But it's not necessarily vulgar in a crude way ;often it simply exists and can be interpreted any which way the viewer chooses, or not at all. Ask an 8 year old what they see when the you look at Lara Croft and it's just a girl in short pants. They don't see Conan the barbarian and his huge sword as any kind of a metaphor for sexual dominance - it's just conan, chopping off heads. None of the soldiers you see in MW2 are fat or ugly, but the fact that they are all rugged handsome chaps is not played up. It's subconcious.
(Personally I feel that putting any kind of romance type scenario as per Mass Effect or DA:O where you can actually "seal the deal" in-game is seriously retarded, and the equivalent of drawing a titty-fuck on the bathroom wall. Look at the difference between those games and KOTOR2 where you had full-on romance sub-plots that could be fairly "steamy" without ever having to see some nerd developer's idea of "hot sex". Seriously...)
sorry, had to wipe off my screen there, where was I? Oh yes:
Homosexuality, on the other hand, is not the norm. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's a minority which for better or worse is still taboo in many cultures in the world.
The real issue here is that the author has convinced himself that it's totally normal to be gay, and that a person's being gay is something that everybody should be comfortable with, that one should be able to walk into a room and go "hey everyone, I'm queer" and nobody should cringe. Doesn't work like that.
Now I have not played this mod, but my understanding of it is that apart from the one inference to the character being gay, nothing else in the story requires him to he gay. (correct me if I am wrong) So what is the point? It can only stick out like a sore thumb as saying "I want to let you know I am gay". Dude, we don't care. We don't want to know. Duke Nukem never actually *told* us how maby orgies he had before breakfast (but you could infer that it was at least 4)
I don't stick my heterosexuality in anyone's face (unless she asks and I think it's only fair that you don't do the same. But if you DO put that label into the game, then you have already pigeon-holed yourself. So either way, you are stuck.
Of course you are free to make any kind of mod or game you like, but my advice is that if you want to make a game where a character's being gay **is an integral part of the story**, then go for it, and make it work, because you will have made a very valid and hopefully very engaging tale that, you never know, might help to change the way some people think about your sexuality.
Otherwise, don't mention it at all, and let people put two and two together themselves. Let them imagine what the male (or female, oh yeah baby) leads got up to when the credits roll, but don't force them to watch it.
Cabbages, oooh yeah.
See what I mean?
Now, whilst I can in part sympathise with the author vis a vis the reactions he got to the insertion of his character's sexuality into the game, I would have to disagree that this is something you can do and expect it to go without comment.
Heterosexuality is the norm in our species; after all it is what allows us to propagate the human race. As such, it's deeply rooted in many aspects of our culture, the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, the games we play very often have apparent sexual metaphors attached, some very much by design, some by accident (like when someone makes a new corporate logo that to them signfies the synergy and drive of a dynamic business but to some guy looks like an erect penis or a pair of titties, and when he points it out you can never see anything but that in the logo - just look at how they drew Norway/Sweden/Finland on a Euro coin and you'll see what I mean...)
So therefore it's normal to put heterosexual symbology into movies, books and games that heterosexual men design. But it's not necessarily vulgar in a crude way ;often it simply exists and can be interpreted any which way the viewer chooses, or not at all. Ask an 8 year old what they see when the you look at Lara Croft and it's just a girl in short pants. They don't see Conan the barbarian and his huge sword as any kind of a metaphor for sexual dominance - it's just conan, chopping off heads. None of the soldiers you see in MW2 are fat or ugly, but the fact that they are all rugged handsome chaps is not played up. It's subconcious.
(Personally I feel that putting any kind of romance type scenario as per Mass Effect or DA:O where you can actually "seal the deal" in-game is seriously retarded, and the equivalent of drawing a titty-fuck on the bathroom wall. Look at the difference between those games and KOTOR2 where you had full-on romance sub-plots that could be fairly "steamy" without ever having to see some nerd developer's idea of "hot sex". Seriously...)
sorry, had to wipe off my screen there, where was I? Oh yes:
Homosexuality, on the other hand, is not the norm. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's a minority which for better or worse is still taboo in many cultures in the world.
The real issue here is that the author has convinced himself that it's totally normal to be gay, and that a person's being gay is something that everybody should be comfortable with, that one should be able to walk into a room and go "hey everyone, I'm queer" and nobody should cringe. Doesn't work like that.
Now I have not played this mod, but my understanding of it is that apart from the one inference to the character being gay, nothing else in the story requires him to he gay. (correct me if I am wrong) So what is the point? It can only stick out like a sore thumb as saying "I want to let you know I am gay". Dude, we don't care. We don't want to know. Duke Nukem never actually *told* us how maby orgies he had before breakfast (but you could infer that it was at least 4)
I don't stick my heterosexuality in anyone's face (unless she asks
and I think it's only fair that you don't do the same. But if you DO put that label into the game, then you have already pigeon-holed yourself. So either way, you are stuck.Of course you are free to make any kind of mod or game you like, but my advice is that if you want to make a game where a character's being gay **is an integral part of the story**, then go for it, and make it work, because you will have made a very valid and hopefully very engaging tale that, you never know, might help to change the way some people think about your sexuality.
Otherwise, don't mention it at all, and let people put two and two together themselves. Let them imagine what the male (or female, oh yeah baby) leads got up to when the credits roll, but don't force them to watch it.
Just two things
1. I thought it was an interesting article, I've never considered that perspective before.
2. Your article made me angry, not because of anything to do with homosexuality but because you said that simply because you can't escape from reality in video games no one else should be able to. Personally I don't care if you are gay or as devout as the pope but your lack of enjoyment shouldn't stop anyone else, and if you can say that then why couldn't someone say that they dislike gays so no games should be made about them.
1. I thought it was an interesting article, I've never considered that perspective before.
2. Your article made me angry, not because of anything to do with homosexuality but because you said that simply because you can't escape from reality in video games no one else should be able to. Personally I don't care if you are gay or as devout as the pope but your lack of enjoyment shouldn't stop anyone else, and if you can say that then why couldn't someone say that they dislike gays so no games should be made about them.