Someone above said you can't blame people for not wanting to play a gay person. I am here to say, you can. If the requirement for playing games has something to do with personal identity, well guess what, millions of women and minorities have been shafted time and time again. People who get upset over this sort of thing just need to grow up, that includes punks who go around making rude gestures and talking like they're all grown up in FPS games.
234: Not That There's Anything Wrong With That
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Why not? How many games/movies/books make a passing reference to a character's heterosexual relationship, without it playing a significant role in the plot? Why shouldn't the author of such a mod make a passing reference to his character's sexuality, gender identity or whatever? Why does it have to be a big deal or a huge plot point?boholikeu said:
Answer: it doesn't.
How would it have been appropriate for you? If every reference to a character's homosexuality was followed by a quest for acceptance? Why is it so objectionable that a gay man made a game featuring a couple that just happens to be gay?
I never really feel the need to comment on things I read here, and after reading these comments, I remember why.
I'm a bisexual female married to a straight (and Christian) man. In many ways I have it much easier than the author of this article; lesbians are "hot" and more likely to be accepted in some circles, and since I'm in a straight relationship I get all the privileges associated with that (lack of discrimination mostly). In gaming, there seem to be a lot more cases where you can play a lesbian character than a gay man, but there are still no (to my knowledge) canon lesbian player characters, at least in games that actually do well.
As a female gamer, playing a big burly heterosexual male most of the time is something I pretty much have to accept. Can I identify with these characters? To a point, yes. I can understand joys and pains as far as the human condition is concerned. If I couldn't, I probably wouldn't be a gamer, since the games with female protagonists are limited. To me, saying gay characters shouldn't be made because people wouldn't be able to relate to them is, well... almost insulting. What about what I can relate to? Has anyone considered that gay gamers are a small demographic because of the lack of gay people in games? Indeed, if you removed the word "gay" and its synonyms from this article, and replaced them with "female", "black", or "disabled", would there even be an argument?
I'm a bisexual female married to a straight (and Christian) man. In many ways I have it much easier than the author of this article; lesbians are "hot" and more likely to be accepted in some circles, and since I'm in a straight relationship I get all the privileges associated with that (lack of discrimination mostly). In gaming, there seem to be a lot more cases where you can play a lesbian character than a gay man, but there are still no (to my knowledge) canon lesbian player characters, at least in games that actually do well.
As a female gamer, playing a big burly heterosexual male most of the time is something I pretty much have to accept. Can I identify with these characters? To a point, yes. I can understand joys and pains as far as the human condition is concerned. If I couldn't, I probably wouldn't be a gamer, since the games with female protagonists are limited. To me, saying gay characters shouldn't be made because people wouldn't be able to relate to them is, well... almost insulting. What about what I can relate to? Has anyone considered that gay gamers are a small demographic because of the lack of gay people in games? Indeed, if you removed the word "gay" and its synonyms from this article, and replaced them with "female", "black", or "disabled", would there even be an argument?
I never heard of the mod before (and since I don't own the game, won't play anyway) but I encourage the attitude of making it. It is a good thing when an author ( and I mean "author" in the full meaning of it, as I've seen this thing on short stories too) puts the player (or reader) in a position other than the "social default" without his knowledge of it, so that, in the end, the guy realizer he was seeing from the wrong angle and, perhaps, rething whatever prejudice he has.
Good article!
Good article!
I love how the forum trolls all assume everyone here is Christian and that The Bible is a quotable source for an argument.
Did anyone else play The Ballad of Gay Tony? While I was disappointed that the main character wasn't gay (and I couldn't choose to be gay within the game), Luis and Tony had one of the most interesting relationships I've ever seen in a video game. For a game that's most certainly played by homophobic 13 year old boys, I was thrilled to see such a decent portrayal of that segment of society. Luis, while straight, doesn't just work for Tony for the money, even if he implies that he does. Many times over the course of the game he could have walked out on him and let him self destruct. But Luis stuck with him, and out of their conversations you got a sense of mutual respect and trust. Tony loved Luis like a son or a brother and never once does the game itself imply a sexual connotation to this bond.
Did anyone else play The Ballad of Gay Tony? While I was disappointed that the main character wasn't gay (and I couldn't choose to be gay within the game), Luis and Tony had one of the most interesting relationships I've ever seen in a video game. For a game that's most certainly played by homophobic 13 year old boys, I was thrilled to see such a decent portrayal of that segment of society. Luis, while straight, doesn't just work for Tony for the money, even if he implies that he does. Many times over the course of the game he could have walked out on him and let him self destruct. But Luis stuck with him, and out of their conversations you got a sense of mutual respect and trust. Tony loved Luis like a son or a brother and never once does the game itself imply a sexual connotation to this bond.
You're reading too much into my posts. I have no problem with a gay man making a game featuring a couple that just happens to be gay. My complaint here is about execution. If you are going to make a short, character-driven mod, any information you give about the protagonist in the first few seconds of game play is going to stand out, especially if it's "controversial". In Handle With Care, the main character's homosexuality isn't subtly introduced as a small "personal element"; it's the only description we get of the main character until the second act.ThrobbingEgo said:
Edit: In other words, I wanted the creator to either "follow through" with subject of homosexuality we're given in the beginning of game, or move that information to the middle of the story where so that we can actually have a character that just happens to be homosexual rather than a character that is defined by it. As it is the player isn't introduced to the true theme of the game (repression) until later in the game.
Indeed, thank you for reminding me. I should have been more specfic, if I remember correctly Old Testement Law falls into three catorgries: cerminonial law, civil law and moral law. Cerimonial law was all about the worship of God (sacrifrices, priests, the temple, etc) and it was that that Jesus ablosihed by his death on the cross.Randomtime said:
The moral laws are summerised in the Ten Commandments and stand for all time. This law is what Jesus fulfilled.
The civil law has also been overthrown but there is still wisdom in it.
Homosexuality falls under the moral law of God against lustful sins.
I'd love to actually play the game and its predecessor, given the mixed reception they've received *COUGH COUGH*, but I lack Episode 2 to use the mods, so I'm having to stick with hearsay as evidence for their 'greatness', which is apparently totally justified.
As for the homosexuality/religion discussion, I'm sorry to see the forum split into two 'sides', but maybe you should accept that the discussion is ultimately futile.
Neither side will win as both have equally valid points, and the politeness can only go so far before the entire discussion degrades into an argument not worth having. So far I'm actually surprised at the lack of abusive comments. Maybe such users are still recovering from the initial shock.
I myself am gay, but I don't make a massive deal about it. People generally assume I'm straight because I don't conform to the stereotype that gays are associated with; overly-flamboyant people with the 'gay voice' and a fixation on dress sense and other bullshit.
In any case, it's said that the game doesn't make homosexuality the focus; from what I've read it appears to be more of a commentary on the human mind and our ability to repress memories. Feel free to correct me on this.
I just find it sad that the community finds it necessary to split and take sides on this issue so determinedly.
As for the homosexuality/religion discussion, I'm sorry to see the forum split into two 'sides', but maybe you should accept that the discussion is ultimately futile.
Neither side will win as both have equally valid points, and the politeness can only go so far before the entire discussion degrades into an argument not worth having. So far I'm actually surprised at the lack of abusive comments. Maybe such users are still recovering from the initial shock.
I myself am gay, but I don't make a massive deal about it. People generally assume I'm straight because I don't conform to the stereotype that gays are associated with; overly-flamboyant people with the 'gay voice' and a fixation on dress sense and other bullshit.
In any case, it's said that the game doesn't make homosexuality the focus; from what I've read it appears to be more of a commentary on the human mind and our ability to repress memories. Feel free to correct me on this.
I just find it sad that the community finds it necessary to split and take sides on this issue so determinedly.
I would like to think that as that would be awesome.Prophetic Heresy said:
I like the article unfortunately I do not have EP2 though this did make me consider buying it.
Last my two cents on the whole bible stuff. Doesn't the bible say be nice to your fellow man. If it does don't discriminate them as that is not nice. Lastly as ben---neb said it is a sin of lust so if it is just a sin why is it that it is treated like the worst sin ever. As is we all apparently sin so why not be hateful of all sinners which means everyone not just some kind of pick and chose method.
ur a fag
Please ignore me, I have an odd sense of humour. Personally I think active homophobia is for short-minded retards who do not deserve consciousness, and that people cannot be classified as 'reasonable' when they are against gay rights.
I also played your mod a while ago, and it was quite good, I think. Although it was almost IMPOSSIBLE to save your marriage. It was much easier to let it all break down. But I liked it, and I'm still looking forward to the next installment. A submarine, wasn't it?
Please ignore me, I have an odd sense of humour. Personally I think active homophobia is for short-minded retards who do not deserve consciousness, and that people cannot be classified as 'reasonable' when they are against gay rights.
I also played your mod a while ago, and it was quite good, I think. Although it was almost IMPOSSIBLE to save your marriage. It was much easier to let it all break down. But I liked it, and I'm still looking forward to the next installment. A submarine, wasn't it?
There's a lot of false pretenses here based on the Bible and whatnot... actually from both sides of it. ben's first post in here was pretty harmless, but quite a few people actually baited him about his opinion on the subject, and it suddenly turned into Bible war.
Anyway, for the creator of the game to write the article as if he was surprised is the biggest surprise for me. He has to have known that this would happen, and honestly, for him to come off as saying stuff like (paraphrase) "I expected people to talk about the gameplay problems, instead of the homosexuality" just seems to me like he's playing dumb.
You know that this is a volatile subject (as evidenced by the mom-in-tears story), in a game played (probably) mainly by teens to early 20s males, most of which aren't gay. To honestly be surprised that this crowd as a whole would accept the premise with no rebuttal is naive at best, and I'm just not buying the fact that he didn't think this would happen. He's (imo) just trying to push the boundary of games a bit, and see what happens..
And honestly, I'm not upset with him for doing so. I'm not gay, but I can imagine that it's a hard lifestyle that he wants to relate to. So for him to create his own game where the characters are gay in order to push boundaries a bit is fine. I can understand that... just call it like it is, though. Don't tiptoe around and play the victim when this response comes.
All that wall of text said, though.. It is an interesting test of the culture, and a well-written, if naive, article.
Anyway, for the creator of the game to write the article as if he was surprised is the biggest surprise for me. He has to have known that this would happen, and honestly, for him to come off as saying stuff like (paraphrase) "I expected people to talk about the gameplay problems, instead of the homosexuality" just seems to me like he's playing dumb.
You know that this is a volatile subject (as evidenced by the mom-in-tears story), in a game played (probably) mainly by teens to early 20s males, most of which aren't gay. To honestly be surprised that this crowd as a whole would accept the premise with no rebuttal is naive at best, and I'm just not buying the fact that he didn't think this would happen. He's (imo) just trying to push the boundary of games a bit, and see what happens..
And honestly, I'm not upset with him for doing so. I'm not gay, but I can imagine that it's a hard lifestyle that he wants to relate to. So for him to create his own game where the characters are gay in order to push boundaries a bit is fine. I can understand that... just call it like it is, though. Don't tiptoe around and play the victim when this response comes.
All that wall of text said, though.. It is an interesting test of the culture, and a well-written, if naive, article.
I can't help but think the reason that Faux News avoided the issue was because of the hell storm raised by their "article" on Mass Effect. That or maybe they don't even know yet.Lusty said:
Homophobia unfortunately is one of the biggest hurdles to human equality. It isn't likely to change since most religions regard it is as evil and unnatural, and religion never has to answer to reason, logic, or even morality since it is assumed to come from a higher source that is not allowed to be put under any scrutiny.
Religion isn't going anywhere unfortunately. I am pretty certain it will plague humanities future as it has its past. This means it would take a collective redefinition of which scripture people ignore and people fight to the death to believe in. History shows us many examples of things people have chosen not to follow from the bible. As time goes on people 'choose' what is important. We can only hope that somehow as time goes on and more of us live along side homosexuals that this stupidity ends. I am not holding my breath.
Anyway I appreciated this statement, 'And don't worry, we won't try to seduce you. The sex would be awful.' I am a good looking guy (straight), with a few gay friends. Despite this none of them have ever tried anything, I think they understand more than anyone that you can't force someone into a different sexuality.
Religion isn't going anywhere unfortunately. I am pretty certain it will plague humanities future as it has its past. This means it would take a collective redefinition of which scripture people ignore and people fight to the death to believe in. History shows us many examples of things people have chosen not to follow from the bible. As time goes on people 'choose' what is important. We can only hope that somehow as time goes on and more of us live along side homosexuals that this stupidity ends. I am not holding my breath.
Anyway I appreciated this statement, 'And don't worry, we won't try to seduce you. The sex would be awful.' I am a good looking guy (straight), with a few gay friends. Despite this none of them have ever tried anything, I think they understand more than anyone that you can't force someone into a different sexuality.
I'm sorry to keep laboring the point - but I still don't get why anybody would consider homosexuality is wrong. Yes, some clever forms of reason can cause us to conclude that homosexuality is wrong (I count Kant in this clever form of reasoning, as homosexuality is something that, if acted as a rule in a "universal kingdom of ends" (I.E. everybody did it) then the human race would come to an end. Therefore, rationally - homosexuality is immoral, as it cannot be rationally willed). The obvious flaw to this is clear, not everybody is homosexual, therefore we have no problem.
Additionally, the bible cannot be taken as a legitimate source of morality, if God exists, and made moral laws, these laws have to have came from somewhere (you can argue that they don't and God made them up arbitrarily, but that means that there is no reason why we should be following them, in a strictly moral sense, as they were made up). Therefore, morality in this scene has to come from reason, and not because "God said so". For myself, I can find no reasonable explanation why homosexuality is morally wrong - apart from the Kantian, which I have addressed earlier (Aquinas argued this too, in a similar sort of way, he said that homosexuality would be counter to one of our purposes - reproduction of the species, and therefore immoral). So, how can you say it's immoral? When two people choose to have a relationship, they are both of an age to make that decision, and they both want to make that decision, what have you to say to stop them. It is utter arrogance that some Christians do (I'm not saying that you, ben---neb share the views of the Westbro bapitist church, or any other orginisation such as that) try to stop these relationships.
I've ranted, sorry about that.
Additionally, the bible cannot be taken as a legitimate source of morality, if God exists, and made moral laws, these laws have to have came from somewhere (you can argue that they don't and God made them up arbitrarily, but that means that there is no reason why we should be following them, in a strictly moral sense, as they were made up). Therefore, morality in this scene has to come from reason, and not because "God said so". For myself, I can find no reasonable explanation why homosexuality is morally wrong - apart from the Kantian, which I have addressed earlier (Aquinas argued this too, in a similar sort of way, he said that homosexuality would be counter to one of our purposes - reproduction of the species, and therefore immoral). So, how can you say it's immoral? When two people choose to have a relationship, they are both of an age to make that decision, and they both want to make that decision, what have you to say to stop them. It is utter arrogance that some Christians do (I'm not saying that you, ben---neb share the views of the Westbro bapitist church, or any other orginisation such as that) try to stop these relationships.
I've ranted, sorry about that.