269: Praise Diversity, Address Inequality

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Anacortian

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Has anybody here played World of Warcraft. I would posit that the Orcs, Trolls, and Taurens are decidedly black; Night Elves are Asian(ish); and everything else is (I admit) a wide net of whiteness (Scottish/Germanic, Jewish, feudal, Victorian, Slavic, and Rave Rat). I don't really know what the Goblins are.

Humans can be various colors twixt black and white. I have a Japanese friend (in RL) who managed the Herculean (read Musashian) task of making an Asian out of a human.

My point? WoW is the most inclusive game in the world!

Alliance FTW! (That appears a bit racist in light of the above.)
 

Albino Boo

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An interesting article. The biggest problem with it is that is only seeing things in the American context. The black and Hispanic are the big minorities in the US but hardly figure in Germany were the largest non German ethnic group are from Turkey, in France its Arabs, in Japan its Koreans and in the UK its muslims from Pakistan. The games industry can't create game thats going to have some just like me in the world market place. The reality of it the white guy is the lowest common dominator representing the majority of the population in North America and Europe. I wouldn't be surprised in the next 20 years or so if we don't see most of the central characters in games either being Chinese or Indian. If those two nations start buying games they will dwarf all the current gamers put together.
 

mythgraven

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Mar 9, 2010
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Race Needs To Be Addressed In Games:


Oh sweet Jesus on the Cross. No, it certaintly does not.

Your race doesnt matter. It shouldnt be addressed by other people.
Your gender doesnt matter. It shouldnt be addressed by other people.
Your religion doesnt matter. It shouldnt be addressed by other people.

WHO you are > WHAT you are. Your choices are who you are. Your actions are who you are. Your paint job and your accessories are NOT who you are. If you are relying on your physical features to be adddressed, commented on, cuddled, and made up to be OH so special, then I feel sorry for you.

Now, and ALWAYS.


The last thing video games need, is the utter tripe and fiasco that is "Race Relations" brought into them.

I dont care about the black people in video games, I dont care about the white people. The girls, or the guys.

I care about catching up to the ASSHOLE who stole the crystal from me, and betrayed me, not once, but TWICE, and in the end, is all apologetic about it like "If it happens again, just kill me." Thanks, but that doesnt help me, since now the Villian has ALL THE CRYSTALS.


Thats what matters to a gamer. Period.

Whiskey Echo!!
mythgraven
 

fulano

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AceCalhoon said:
unabomberman said:
"Why aren't they?"

That question is easily answered: Who owns the majority of the means of production?
Is it your assertion then that producers/publishers are discriminating against minority content authors? In other words, that there are a proportionate number of minority TV shows, movies, and video games being concepted and submitted, but that they are being denied exclusively because of their racial nature?

That's certainly worrying if it's true. And a lot of what's written in articles like this one certainly implies it. But do you have any proof? Or short of proof any evidence, other than "there aren't enough minorities in the media and white people are racist"?
Huh?

I haven't called people racist. All I'm saying is that those who own the means of production perpetrate a status quo full of tereotypes of minorities. Some among those people might be racist and some won't, but I'm not implying a generalized intention to defame, put down, or what have you, if that is what you mean.

If they want to do minorities a solid and make a tv show, or movie where they are the protagonists, good; but they should consider before adding a stereotipical depiction of them.

People do what they know, and sometimes lack of a broader picture is part of it.
 

Rachel Edidin

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unabomberman said:
...those who own the means of production perpetrate a status quo full of tereotypes of minorities. Some among those people might be racist and some won't, but I'm not implying a generalized intention to defame, put down, or what have you, if that is what you mean.

If they want to do minorities a solid and make a tv show, or movie where they are the protagonists, good; but they should consider before adding a stereotipical depiction of them.

People do what they know, and sometimes lack of a broader picture is part of it.
Yes. This. Thank you.

It would be lovely to live in a society where race didn't matter, but we don't, and we won't for as long as discussions of race--and calling out racism, deliberate or otherwise--are stigmatized.

To everyone who doesn't get why they should bother when they don't have to: race-blindness is a manifestation of racial privilege. You only get to have the illusion of a post-racial society if your race doesn't adversely affect your status and participation in that society.

And to everyone saying that if people of color want more non-white video game characters they should just make more video games: media and social representation directly affect options, both perceived and actual. It's a nasty, self-perpetuating cycle, and unless the people already in a position to affect it step the hell up, change is going to be very, very, very slow.
 
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Jarl said:
I'd like to start off saying that I found the article fairly poorly written, with a good number of words missing and generally unfocused.
"Jamin Brophy-Warren is the co-founder of Kill Screen, a videogame arts and culture magazine, and his writing has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, New Yorker, Paris Review, and Los Angeles Times."

Yeah that man obliviously doesn't know how to write an article.

Darktau said:
Newsflash: No-one cares, the only people who do are the media.
So gamers are just so fucking apathetic that they cannot ever question what their medium is doing? They cannot talk about games beyond framerate, kill streaks, and how awesome X game looks like? Nothing relatively serious can be told or discussed about games?

It's pretty fucking sad buddy because I thought gamers were mature enough to talk about that stuff. If gamers can't talk seriously about games as something more than an object of entertainment, who will?
 

Darktau

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ShadowKirby said:
Darktau said:
Newsflash: No-one cares, the only people who do are the media.
So gamers are just so fucking apathetic that they cannot ever question what their medium is doing? They cannot talk about games beyond framerate, kill streaks, and how awesome X game looks like? Nothing relatively serious can be told or discussed about games?

It's pretty fucking sad buddy because I thought gamers were mature enough to talk about that stuff. If gamers can't talk seriously about games as something more than an object of entertainment, who will?
I think you may have misunderstood me, I was saying that no-one I know views the racial content of a game as a turning point as to whether to buy it or not, or gives it too much thought, gamers are most definitely mature enough to talk about it, I am just saying that the media blows racial themes in games out of proportion.
 

jono793

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This is less of an issue within video games and more an issue of our wider popular culture. Video games are by no means the only, or even the main offender.

We've actually taken a step backwards on the portreyal of race. Recent popular television shows abound in which Minorities are token sidekicks, ignorant stereotypes or absent entirely. And it's not just the tat. Popular shows with huge followings(Gossip Girl, Smallville, Sons of Anarchy, Burn Notice) are guilty of racial pigeon-holing. this wasn't always the case. I grew up with TV shows like Sister Sister and Fresh Prince of Bel Air. They were comedies, but dealt with relatable issues of race, gender, class; challenging the audience in the process. When was the last time mainstream culture did that?

Why has this happened? Economics. As popular culture globalizes it is forced to deal with the prejudices of ever more cultures(See the Microsoft Photoshop controversy: http://photoshopdisasters.blogspot.com/2009/08/microsoft-poland-at-least-they-left.html). Studios find it much more profitable to ignore, or even exploit that bigotry.

But global exports are only a small part of it. The cynical explaination is that audiences find it easier to digest culture with out of the box character types; The hansome white hero, the sexy love interest; and the inevitable quirky black sidekick. Because white audiences have more purchasing power than minority audiences, content panders to them.
 

snave

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Forget equality for a second.
Think like an accountant:
Think neglected market.

There are very few games that even grab my attention anymore. Oh so many are dull clones. In particular, most 1st PERSON SHOOTERS LOOK AND SOUND THE SAME. Most MMOs can get thrown in that box too. The only games that tend to grab my attention are in niches I particularly enjoy (I rather like some of those colourful acid trips Nintendo release) or things genuinely different. Different essentially boils down to differences in gameplay mechanics nowadays. Actually, most of the MMOs and FPSs I've even bothered to look twice at have promised different mechanics. None have promised different scenarios.

Forget the racial character slider for a second. I'm an unmarried yet employed, dependant free white dude aged 18-35. I am THE demographic. Want to grab my attention, split your game from the pack? Let me play as someone that isn't an unmarried, employed, dependant-free white dude aged 18-35 and in a scenario that isn't a plot from a Fox news semi-fiction. We get enough of that shit in our entertainment as it is. Something truly different? THAT would get me forking over cold hard cash.
 

370999

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I'm generalising here but aren't most games developers white or asian and thus that has an effect of the character being of those two races due to the designers subconsiously creating an idealised version of themselves. That would be fairly innocent IMHO.
 

bjj hero

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Its not just games, its the media as a whole. We had a white American guy play the prince of Persia and a White Brit playing the princess. I always thought the clue was in the title.

Protagonists are mostly white (American) because thats the biggest audience. Simple economics. All those white American kids can root for the hero. You can mention games that don't but if we're honest these are exceptions. I enjoyed playing a Brit in COD4, if I'm not James Bond it doesn't happen very often.

It's not just White that has the monopoly. It's "white American". Look at all of the WWII games/TV/Movies that would have you think America was the only member of the allies in the whole war. America seems to struggle with anyone elses culture full stop. If America makes a good TV show it will be imported into the UK and enjoyed as is (with less commercial breaks). If the UK make good TV (and we can make some great TV) then an American version is made with an all Yank cast. Either the people incharge think its the case, or it is the case, that Americans can't relate to or enjoy cultures other than their own.
 

AceCalhoon

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unabomberman said:
Huh?

I haven't called people racist. All I'm saying is that those who own the means of production perpetrate a status quo full of tereotypes of minorities. Some among those people might be racist and some won't, but I'm not implying a generalized intention to defame, put down, or what have you, if that is what you mean.
My apologies, I projected past iterations of this discussion onto your statements.

Your assertion, then, is that minorities do not have the means or opportunity to produce media created by minority authors.

At what level are you talking about? If it's a very low level (writing, concepting), then what would you see as the solution?

If it's at a higher level (getting books published, movies produced, games developed), why do you feel that minority authors can't use the existing infrastructure (most forms of media are not produced by their writers)?
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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unabomberman said:
That is a way to approach the argument, but by that same token I could say that Howard is white and society makes no more assumptions about him at face value than it does about Sheldon, Leonard, or Penny; and by contrast it would do so about Raj. That's teh sticking point here: society's view towards the other.

I could also say that I'm a mexican that tends towards the white spectrum and if you looked at me you migt be inclined to say that I might very well be a tanned white guy from, say, Spain, and I for sure wouldn't get treated much differently than my perceived pasty brethren. I would get Sheldon treatment, not Raj treatment (though on a trip to Arisona I already got myself a "spic" call once so who knows).

EDIT: Added this to avoid double post...

Racism is not about hate solely but about also willful ignorance and willful lack of sensitivity to other people's cultures and backgrounds of the ethnic kind.

As for the Drow, well, aren't they like the bad guys? Kinda like the LOTR orcs? If so, they are definitively racist 'cause, well, isn't the entire race evil?
Not all Drow are evil ;.; You have those that worship Eilistraee rather than Lolth and Vhaeraun and ....

But geekish fanboyism aside.

Fact of the matter is that India has a different culture to that of the US. Because people do get hurt too easily if one isn't cautious about what they say amidst others from a different cultural and political upbringing as you then of course they are going to be seen as 'different'.

One day Humanity will get over cultural "insecurities" and nationalism and we'll all beable to insult eachother freely with reckless abandon. Until that day comes it's natural that one group of people sharing a very particular cultural upbringing will feel somewhat offput bwhen presented by someone who is perceived as alien.

I would have hoped by the 21st century everybody could drop veiled pretentious attitudes concerning the 'politically correct' things to do. Instead we are all expected to show respect to another cultural heritage of which we know nothing about. If you offend someone with what you say, even if you didn't know that it would offend someone, you're a bad guy.

I think pretentious attitudes (what I call the 'hey, look how un-racist we are by having a couple of black guys thrown into the tv show... we're like soooooooo diversity loving' effect) towards the sanctity of culture, religion and nationalism is eventually going to start regressing society.

Why the FUCK are people still referring to themselves as "half this"? Half of WHAT!? Does it even matter? People use it as a moniker to express what they represent ... which is such a fucking ludicrous concept that serves to both infuriate reasoning, and squander any chance of just being a normal, affable person ... rather than an idiot of whom everybody has to tiptoe around because we don't want to offend them because we haven't spent a year or two studying their particular cultural heritage and national history.

So ... in short ... The Bigbang theory is representative of another problem, but no the one you posted. You say that it's lslightly racist because Raj is seen as 'different' ...

I say the show is racist because of PC idiots trying not to offend people by constantly remarking how different Raj is, and despite the fact that we can't know about his culture, therefore we should tiptoe around it because it's sacrosanct.

So we assume he's an Indian ... and that because he's Indian he's different? Why is he different? Isn't it safe to assume that Raj is going to be like 99.9% of other people in the world who just wants money, food and sex?

As soon as Humanity loses the pretentiousness that we're all 'special' because of nationality and arbitrary concepts of culture the better we'll be for it. We're not 'special' .. we're human. We want money, food and sex and we should find commonality in that purpose, but of course idiots inflate the 'importance' of culture and nationality .... in the end dividing us in ways that we can never be properly unified as a singular species.

That felt good to get out of my system x.x

If we ever wish to escape stereotyping then we have to drop the idea that culture is sacred. Embrace the idea that people are not a product of their nations but of OTHER PEOPLE.

The way I see it ... screw 'culture' (as in, the fake piece of shit concept we have of culture as referred to by arbitrary notions of geography and religion), nationality and ESPECIALLY the people that treat either as sacrosanct.
 

Dhatz

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you seem to succumb to the default deformation of jurnalists: "topic A is of same value in discussion as topic B or any other". even if you admit that race isn't what makes mass effect play differently you still say it is topic worth the debate. I won't give a fuck what zombie race will I be when somebody actually makes AAA game where I lead zombie army to conquer the world. lemme help ya, every conversation over internet is jedi vs. jedi, they call you "who brought the nigga" and you should kill him off with "and who brought the retard?"
 

fulano

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AceCalhoon said:
unabomberman said:
Huh?

I haven't called people racist. All I'm saying is that those who own the means of production perpetrate a status quo full of tereotypes of minorities. Some among those people might be racist and some won't, but I'm not implying a generalized intention to defame, put down, or what have you, if that is what you mean.
My apologies, I projected past iterations of this discussion onto your statements.

Your assertion, then, is that minorities do not have the means or opportunity to produce media created by minority authors.

At what level are you talking about? If it's a very low level (writing, concepting), then what would you see as the solution?

If it's at a higher level (getting books published, movies produced, games developed), why do you feel that minority authors can't use the existing infrastructure (most forms of media are not produced by their writers)?
My assertions is that minorities do have means to put their voices forth, but they pale in comparison (availability, outreach, etc) to those owned by the majority that owns the more sophisticated means of production. Not only do they get dwarfed by the total output of the majority but also by the concepts being projected about them by said majority, good or bad.

An allegorical example:

If you are inside of a room where everyone is screaming stuff about you or people like you, good or bad, you are always free to join and scream your two cents, but that does not mean that your singular voice will register as much as the other ones.

It would be nice if the other people screaming turned around, asked your oppinion, and then continued with their screaming after having considered what you said, don't you think?

Nobody has to get testy or anything. It's just being civillized.
 

Paksenarrion

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I just realized we aren't being represented as gamers in games. Where is the overweight, pimply-faced, glasses wearing socially awkward main character? There should be a patch for every game that features us as a character. For example:

In Assassin's Creed, our patched character attempts to run up a wall, only to lean heavily on it after just a few wobbly steps. Sweat drips down, driving away friend and foe alike.

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed...is anybody else thinking about a certain youtube video persona?

Halo: Reach...flabs of flesh leaking out of the Spartan armor.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Feb 4, 2009
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Paksenarrion said:
I just realized we aren't being represented as gamers in games. Where is the overweight, pimply-faced, glasses wearing socially awkward main character? There should be a patch for every game that features us as a character. For example:

In Assassin's Creed, our patched character attempts to run up a wall, only to lean heavily on it after just a few wobbly steps. Sweat drips down, driving away friend and foe alike.

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed...is anybody else thinking about a certain youtube video persona?

Halo: Reach...flabs of flesh leaking out of the Spartan armor.
Sometimes the stereotyping of gamers is evident in games ... the old model of the Imperial Guard (generic force) lieutenant was a fat, bald dude wielding a shotgun. His rotund form was just (barely) contained by the guard flak armour he wore.

http://cgi.ebay.com/40k-OOP-IMPERIAL-GUARD-LIEUTENANT-fat-belly-FUN_W0QQitemZ150480052833QQcategoryZ158714QQcmdZViewItem
 

AceCalhoon

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unabomberman said:
My assertions is that minorities do have means to put their voices forth, but they pale in comparison (availability, outreach, etc) to those owned by the majority that owns the more sophisticated means of production. Not only do they get dwarfed by the total output of the majority but also by the concepts being projected about them by said majority, good or bad.

An allegorical example:

If you are inside of a room where everyone is screaming stuff about you or people like you, good or bad, you are always free to join and scream your two cents, but that does not mean that your singular voice will register as much as the other ones.

It would be nice if the other people screaming turned around, asked your oppinion, and then continued with their screaming after having considered what you said, don't you think?

Nobody has to get testy or anything. It's just being civillized.
That is an interesting take on the matter. Thank you for clarifying.
 

boholikeu

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I agree with most of the article, though I do have one point to raise about the whole Resident Evil debacle:

People often forget that what might be racist in one country is not necessarily racist in another country. People in Japan, for instance, are probably only vaguely aware of imperialism in Africa, so trying to imply that the game is the result of even subconscious racism is just flat out wrong.

This doesn't get them a free pass of course. Once the developers learned how insensitive this type of game appears to a westerner they were obligated to change it. However, I don't think Resident Evil 5 was a product of racism any more than say, the Spanish zombies in RE4 were.
 

fulano

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boholikeu said:
I agree with most of the article, though I do have one point to raise about the whole Resident Evil debacle:

People often forget that what might be racist in one country is not necessarily racist in another country. People in Japan, for instance, are probably only vaguely aware of imperialism in Africa, so trying to imply that the game is the result of even subconscious racism is just flat out wrong.

This doesn't get them a free pass of course. Once the developers learned how insensitive this type of game appears to a westerner they were obligated to change it. However, I don't think Resident Evil 5 was a product of racism any more than say, the Spanish zombies in RE4 were.
I/m not sure it could be said that they are only "vaguely aware" of imperialism in Africa.
Whomever made that game was an adult. Yes, the game does offend sensibilities, but that is in large part because of the history of Africans and afro descendants as an oppresed population. You can't help but to equate it with that if your cultural background fascilitates it.

But you are right on the money on the other things you say. On grounds of merit RE5 should not be any more offensive, which is still plenty, than, say, RE2 or RE4, you know what I mean? It depends on who's looking.

In RE4 a caucasian blond white male is stomping foreign soil trying to save the daughter of the president (a caucasian blond white woman) from the unruly natives that exhibit nothing but antisocial behavior, not only towards outsiders but to themselves. Even his initial attempts to establish some middle ground are shrugged aside by their sheer brutality.

There is a peripheric scene at the beginning of the game where you can go inside a shack to pick up supplies and you have a run-un with a female corpse impaled on over the head hanging from a wall.

But In the middle of all the carnage that you both witness and partake there is always time for the caucasian white guy to engage in, well...shopping from what could very well be described as a death profiteer ("welcome stranger!").

What exactly is that about? Is it a statement of the superiority american democracy over a decaying Europe? After all, the game was made by a nation that was defeated by the U.S and occupied at the tail end of WWII, which in turn deeply shook up its cultural workings to the core, to the point of reshaping society and, in large part, its values.

Now let's go back in time and take a look at RE2 where you use the aforementioned caucasian white guy and his friend: the caucasian white girl. There they try to survive a generic american multicultural city that is falling apart all around them after a viral outbreak. How do they manage this? Blowing the populace to smithereens because they are thy are the living death, of course.

Also, a deduction could be made about the inner workings of the city by looking at the puzzles from the game. It is not hard to notice that Racoon City is an odd place, with oddly placed statues, strange key puzzles, odd architectural blunders, their odd police station actually headed by a sociopathic madman, etc., etc., etc. What kind of culture is this? Hell, not even levers work the way they're supposed to!

Even before the outbreak, would that be a place where you would feel at home? Clearly those mixed people in that mixed society had odd ways of life, noncompatible with the normal society of ours.

Odd, eh?

The argument could take a lot of different shapes but that's not to say we should not have a honest discussion about it.

Take for example N'Gai Croal's take on RE5. I would not say we should agree with him exactly on what he says, especially considering possible issues someone might have given RE4 and RE2's subject matter. Yet that does not mean we should not listen to what he says. In fact, we should, and listen well, and see where each of us stand.

A simple, honest, "I know we've talked it over, and I know it offends you, but at least know that that is not my intention. Here's why..."

It certainly beats "Screw you! I'm tired of your PC bullshit and entitlement, get out!"