A gay, bi-racial's take on this whole mess

[Dragonbums]

So what's your solution?

Allow the player to kill any and every NPC aside from the dancers? How would that make any logical sense? It would break any immersion the game actually had.

Are you also insinuating that GTA should allow the player to also kill any and every NPC... just not the ones who happen to be in the strip club?

Way to put words in my mouth when I never suggested or implied such a thing.

I never said you did. I was asking you a question on how that particular level could possibly exist without the "sexist" label being thrown at it.

Anita never called that level sexist. She called that part of a level sexist. Since it was a stealth mission to begin with the player could get fail screen at being caught by them or any other patron that saw them. The alternative is to simply not allow players to kill the strippers either. OR if you really want to still beat up unsuspecting strippers have the game not negate your negative score simply because you hid the bodies.

 

[Vault101]

I believe games should be for the good of all and not to represent minorities. I will only play games that appeal to me, a white straight man.
"

[quote/]good of all and not to represent minorities[/quote]

I dunno...these statements seem rather contradictory

 

[Verlander]

"If the game is good, then the game is good, and only bigots will be enraged by what amounts to cosmetic changes" - interesting, so only a bigot would be enraged by the what amounts to a lack of cosmetic changes too then?

How do you arrive at that logic?

I assume that most gamers aren't bigoted. Gamers haven't liked games all this time because they were chock full of stereotypes, they liked games because of gameplay, story, immersion, etc.

When someone like Sarkeesian comes along and says "Ok, games are this great thing, but because of limited focus in the past they've ended up creating all of these negative representations" and the games industry says "Ok, our bad, here's some girls and stuff", the original gamers don't loose anything - the reasons that they originally like games are still there, and only the bigots would be affected.

When someone points out and identifies where something you enjoy is performing at a substandard level, it can feel like a personal attack, and when the delivery is as hostile and aggressive as Sarkeesian, it can feel like an assault. However, the desire for better representation in games isn't intrinsically bigoted. Rejecting, segregating or oppressing people, even if they're asking for a minor change in their favour, is.

 

[maxben]

That's a hell of a strawman. Do you think people liked Gone Home because it was inclusive? It was certainly a plus, but I liked Gone Homes because I am attracted by those kinds of games. It's a mix between a hidden items game and Dear Esther, two things that I enjoy. It has a great atmosphere, and the storytelling is done through gameplay and observation which is great. Go watch Errant Signal's take on Gone Home if you want to see why some people liked it. And yes, if I enjoyed the game AND it managed to be inclusive, it deserves props. Especially because we keep getting told that a game has to be either good or inclusive, as if one cancels out the other.

 

[Lono Shrugged]

I believe games should be for the good of all and not to represent minorities. I will only play games that appeal to me, a white straight man.
"

[quote/]good of all and not to represent minorities

I dunno...these statements seem rather contradictory[/quote]


Not at all, and that misunderstanding is why I steer clear of all this SJW nonsense. I am who I am and I will play what appeals to me. Just because I am a straight white male does not mean I am not open minded. I play whatever game I like the look of and don't discriminate based on the agenda of who is pushing the game at me. I will not play a game to "support" a lifestyle. I will only play games that appeal to me. If someone chooses to put me in a box because of who I am then that is to their fault. Likewise, I think games should in the best cases appeal broadly and not target a specific demographic.
Sure, certain games may appeal to people who have certain interests. But if you start dividing the industry, everyone loses. I am not ashamed of who I am, no more than I would expect anyone else to be ashamed of who they are. I play what I want and vote with my wallet, if I want to play games like Gone Home I will buy it. If I don't want to have fake breasts shoved in my face I won't buy the latest team ninja game.

 

[Stats ^1]

How does being gay and bi-racial give you a unique opinion? Some people call this "special snowflake syndrome".

You have an opinion, which is fair, but don't imply that your opinion is somehow superior or different because of your sexual preference.

 

[Lieju]

Well, as a Finnish autistic genderqueer lesbian with OCD...

I'd just want more diversity and discussion on it.
I might not be biracial, but I could appreciate a good narrative on it.

I think the thing to remember about stuff like the critical reception of Gone Home is that people writing for the gaming press play A LOT of games. More than the majority of gamers.

So having something new and unique is going to feel like a breath of fresh air for them.
No social agenda or conspiracy required.

Just a game that feels new and does things differently.

And I agree, I want different kinds of experiences, so the gaming moves on as a medium.

 

[Dragonbums]

So what's your solution?

Allow the player to kill any and every NPC aside from the dancers? How would that make any logical sense? It would break any immersion the game actually had.

Are you also insinuating that GTA should allow the player to also kill any and every NPC... just not the ones who happen to be in the strip club?

Way to put words in my mouth when I never suggested or implied such a thing.

I never said you did. I was asking you a question on how that particular level could possibly exist without the "sexist" label being thrown at it.

Anita never called that level sexist. She called that part of a level sexist. Since it was a stealth mission to begin with the player could get fail screen at being caught by them or any other patron that saw them. The alternative is to simply not allow players to kill the strippers either. OR if you really want to still beat up unsuspecting strippers have the game not negate your negative score simply because you hid the bodies.

So it turns out, that's exactly what you were saying then.

So allow me to repeat myself: How does it make any rational sense, to allow the player to kill any and every NPC (without a game over screen), regardless of who those NPCs are or what they're doing, except for this one, specific group of dancers?

That would be inconsistent.

You see why no one can actually take this seriously? There's too much hypocrisy involved. What makes that particular group any more or less special than any other group? Why should that group operate under a different set of rules?

I am genuinely curious as to how you keep coming back to the made up conclusion that I said we should be able to beat up every NPC we want. Especially since such a claim ignores context and the bigger picture of why people would see this as an issue overall.

 

[verdant monkai]

Nobody can represent me but me.

You said it yourself. Instead of whining and saying the industry needs to progress. YOU need to get into game development, you even suggested people who aren't happy do that.

As you put it "call BS on things that don't feel right". You are probably unhappy with some honest and earnest attempts at inclusive practices.

Just because you are a A gay bi-racial doesn't mean anyone needs to make games for you, so its up to you to get the ball rolling. To most sensible gamers things like skin colour and gender don't matter. And certainly not sexuality. That sort of thing only matters to people like yourself.

I look forward to your first Title.

 

[Lieju]

I'm asking you why these strippers/dancing NPCs should operate under a separate set of programming rules over every other NPC.

And... bigger picture? In what way? How is the game discriminatory for allowing these dancers to be killed, when every single other NPC in the game can be killed, including gang members, pedestrians, chefs, police...

That's like calling a store that closes at 10:00pm and asking if they let any Jews in at 10:30pm.

It's like asking a game developer if they can kill strippers in their game when EVERY NPC can be killed in their game.

What I'd like to ask is WHY put a level in a strip club at all.
Or, here's an idea, put it in a male stripclub.

Unless it's just there to throw in nude ladies for eye-candy.
And unless male gamers are too sex-negative to handle sexualized men in their games...

That tends to be the issue.
A complaint for example a friend of mine had about Saints Row (can't remember which one) was not that it had female strippers, that was fully expected considering the tone and the setting.
It was that it ONLY had female strippers.

 

[Vault101]

Not at all, and that misunderstanding is why I steer clear of all this SJW nonsense. I am who I am and I will play what appeals to me. Just because I am a straight white male does not mean I am not open minded. I play whatever game I like the look of and don't discriminate based on the agenda of who is pushing the game at me. I will not play a game to "support" a lifestyle.

[img/]http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/03/GIFS-OK.gif[/img]

you know I think I need a great big sticker that says "where the hell do you people get thease ideas" that would be really handy in thease discussions....


[quote/]I will only play games that appeal to me.[/quote]
and so you balk at the idea of peopl egetting games that appeal to them?

[quote/]If someone chooses to put me in a box because of who I am then that is to their fault. Likewise, I think games should in the best cases appeal broadly and not target a specific demographic.
Sure, certain games may appeal to people who have certain interests. But if you start dividing the industry, everyone loses. I am not ashamed of who I am, no more than I would expect anyone else to be ashamed of who they are. I play what I want and vote with my wallet, if I want to play games like Gone Home I will buy it. If I don't want to have fake breasts shoved in my face I won't buy the latest team ninja game.[/quote]

you know whats really diverse? books...books are very diverse, in fact just now I'm reading one where the two leads are lesbains its great!

games have been suffering from homoegisation for a long time...hell the next sleeping dogs is a fucking F2P MMO "god knows what" its all bland leads and bland stoeylines because companies don't allow for nay creativity

representation is not the porblem here

 

[Vault101]

How does being gay and bi-racial give you a unique opinion? Some people call this "special snowflake syndrome".

You have an opinion, which is fair, but don't imply that your opinion is somehow superior or different because of your sexual preference.

well it would depend on the topic of discussion

I'm not gonna ask a straight guy about mainstream porns representation of lesbains am I?

 

[Stephen St.]

So what's your solution?

Allow the player to kill any and every NPC aside from the dancers? How would that make any logical sense? It would break any immersion the game actually had.

Are you also insinuating that GTA should allow the player to also kill any and every NPC... just not the ones who happen to be in the strip club?

The solution is to not create these situations in the first place? If the strippers aren't there, there is no problem.

 

[Erttheking]

Nobody can represent me but me.

You said it yourself. Instead of whining and saying the industry needs to progress. YOU need to get into game development, you even suggested people who aren't happy do that.

As you put it "call BS on things that don't feel right". You are probably unhappy with some honest and earnest attempts at inclusive practices.

Just because you are a A gay bi-racial doesn't mean anyone needs to make games for you, so its up to you to get the ball rolling. To most sensible gamers things like skin colour and gender don't matter. And certainly not sexuality. That sort of thing only matters to people like yourself.

I look forward to your first Title.

That argument is like saying to gamer gate "instead of whining, you need to join gamer journalism". Notice how that argument never flies anywhere else?