A gay, bi-racial's take on this whole mess

[Stephen St.]

So we should take cops, chefs, and all innocent pedestrians out of the game as well?

uhm, no?

If stripping isn't a big deal, then why does killing them like killing any other NPC in any other profession a big deal?

Their profession doesn't matter. The argument (as I understand it) was that there were an awful lot of scantily clad female characters found to be looked at, or killed, or to look at while they were being killed/raped/whatever. A mixture of sex and violence that could be considered a bit disturing.

 

[Netrigan]

*sigh* Ah, you mean the Thunderf00t ranting that could easily be argued against [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N-tkrxAEWw&list=UUGMegrt_97F75N-iUgyp0Tg].

And no. It is not even close to being the same argument. Either you misunderstand her argument or you misrepresent the extreme of Thompsons arguments.

Quite frankly, all three videos are filled to the brim with utter bullshit. Most of their claims and counter-arguments are one part truth, five parts nonsense.

A fair few of his counter-arguments to Thunderf00t's video can be counter-argued.[footnote]And before anyone asks: No. I won't be wasting my time getting into it in this thread.[/footnote] Though, that certainly doesn't validate much of the nonsense from Thunderf00t's video. Nor Anita's, for that matter. If anything, it just reinforces how ridiculous this whole fiasco has become.

The issue is: Both sides of this argument are so inundated with confirmation bias that neither side has; or indeed can, it seems; make a rational argument for either stance.

It's gotten so out of hand that even I have begun washing my hands of it. And I relish a good debate.

One of the things about becoming an artform is people come in with social critiques. These, as I've mentioned quite a few times, are often bullshit. But as the people giving them have absolutely no power in the industry or within government circles, they're generally really easy to ignore.

The problem, as they say, is two-fold. First, she wasn't really saying anything gamers haven't been saying for several years. so she was essentially arming them with numerous examples in which to phrase their arguments to evoke change. Two, there was just a huge, huge over-reaction to her, which even without the harassment accusation would have made gamers looked like a bunch of thin-skinned loons. Yes, she's saying some of the games you love have sexist elements... it is the Internet, so go a thicker skin already

And along come the guys like Thunderb00t and David Arurini who spend their entire existence reacting to Feminists coming in to pretend they're gamers. Oh, I'm sure they play the odd game of Bejeweled or Angry Birds, but neither of them appear to be particularly knowledgeable about gaming. Thunderb00t seems to go out of his way to mention as few games as possible in his videos and as we can see in the Hitman example, he can't even get the facts straight about that one.

Probably because they were men, we didn't notice the Fake Fanboys within out midst, but it's starting to get harder and harder not to notice all these people who have descended upon our hobby with an agenda which has nothing to do with gaming hijacking the conversation to go after their long-time foes. And, of course, they found some allies for their anti-Feminist and anti-SJW Agenda, but they've been fighting this rear-guard action (i.e. retreat) for a while now without much in the way of tangible results, so I seriously doubt they're helping.

Getting back to gaming, because these guys really are a useless distraction, the video game industry really isn't in much danger of becoming a Politically Correct nightmare landscape, because that really hasn't happened anywhere in the entertainment industry. Adam Baldwin was an employee of one of the more socially minded television producers in the business and it's really hard to point to Firefly as a Social Justice War Zone, despite Whedon's politics being all over the place. Video games have long been going down the diversity path mostly because it's just smart business, but they've also proven themselves over-conservative is what they thing straight white male gamers will accept... this is an industry which thought the sight of a girl on the cover of Bioshock: Infinite would hurt sales, because the straight white male gamer was too sexist to buy a game that they thought might feature a girl in a prominent role.

Seriously, think about how fucked up it is that publishers think that about us gamers. And that's no isolated incident. The hit game, The Last Of Us, had to fight to get Ellie on the cover for the same reason. Publishers think you're that sexist.

And it's not just them. Marvel has a freakin' hit Black Widow movie just waiting to happen, but they're so nervous about what the audience wants when it comes to female leads, they're not willing to take a calculated risk and give us a kick-ass movie in the process. This is the same studio that took a pretty big risk in bringing Guardians of the Galaxy to us. They literally expect us to accept a talking raccoon and a walking tree before we accept a kick-ass female hero who has already proven herself in several movies.

And how fucked up is this? Instead of arguing at Sarkeesian about how sexist we're not, maybe we should be directing that fury at the game industry.

 

[Dragonbums]

I don't really have a problem with more diversity just don't single out a company when they aren't being diverse but don't say shit when they have a diverse selection characters. The protagonist from Assassin creed vita game didn't get as much press as the Protagonist from the next assassin creed game. Granted Ubisoft had a dumbass explanation for all four characters being male.

But during the whole multiplayer fiasco there were plenty of people who not only brought up Liberation, but praised it for it's diverse cast.

It's not like Ubisoft themselves hyped the shit out of the game and they ported it to the ever sinking stone that is the Vita.

I heard no one bring up Liberation or the Hati DLC. I feel sorry for VITA owners at the beginning it looks like it could do as well as the PSP, which is pretty damn good compared to the rest of the Non-Nintendo handlhelds. Sony does not have the money to properly support that system.

Then you must of been absent from the internet during the AC multiplayer fiasco because on this site alone it was brought up numerous times.

 

[Netrigan]

http://youtu.be/4ZPSrwedvsg?t=22m11s

1. Oh Anita. Even by her standards those are some poor arguments, and are entirely unsubstantiated.
2. I see Hitman still has its sleaze factor set to 11. The jiggling tits when the girl is lying prone and unconscious? Classy.
3. Never heard anything about "Hit man "Stripper killing simulator" diatribe" though.

Tm
Because there really isn't one. She was talking about devs putting certain elements into a scenario knowing they'll be used that way by some players. Thunderb00t's retort is largely centered on the game penalizing you (via a meaningless scoring system) as proof you're not supposed to kill the strippers.

But even then that penalized score was easily negated by hiding the bodies inside a box. Which means there still wasn't much of a "penalty" to begin with, and score reductions to people who don't give a shit isn't exactly off putting to the majority of the players. I believe a rebuttal video of Thunderf00t's criticism pointed that out.

So what's your solution?

Allow the player to kill any and every NPC aside from the dancers? How would that make any logical sense? It would break any immersion the game actually had.

Are you also insinuating that GTA should allow the player to also kill any and every NPC... just not the ones who happen to be in the strip club?

Really, the solution is to embrace what you're doing and not get offended that someone noticed.

There's a reason that level is set in a strip club. It's a very obvious reason and everyone knows what it is. Just say "I love boobs and I will not be ashamed." In my experience, the vast majority of women are reasonably tolerant of our tendencies in this regard... at least begrudgingly. Third wave feminism even embraces the sex worker, so Joanna Angel is not judging you harshly for wanting to watch her movies despite being a Feminist.

Beyond that, just point out the number of potential stripper casualties is kept to a minimum without being particularly noticeable by the player. If, for instance, your presence becomes known, the strippers will flee the level removing them as potential victims. It is a bit of a Bill Gaines defense, so be careful about point out all the ways it can be worse, but there's a fair amount of thought being put into the level to prevent the player from going on a Kill Krazy Stripper rampage.

Mostly, don't over-reach. You can't destroy Sarkeesian's points by undermining one or two examples and so far she's been fairly careful to not leave her central point too exposed. You can either do the "yes, you have raised some serious points and we'll do our best to give female characters more agency in future games" (which BTW is an easy way to not do much of anything) or you can try the trickier maneuver of justifying a male space where you have more freedom to misbehave. Ogling a stripper isn't disrespectful, whereas ogling your co-worker is. Strip clubs generally turn up in games featuring the sort of characters who would go to strip clubs.

There's plenty of ways to counter her arguments without getting personal. She does raise some interesting points and we've already seen the developers of Saints Row and Borderlands acknowledge her points about their games. As I think these are among the two best written franchises in the business, I'd not chalk this up to an accident. Scratch beneath the surface and Sarkeesian's complaints are really about lazy writing. Combat lazy writing in your games and there's a good chance you'll have a better written game.

But there's no reason you can't have a male-centric space with well-written female characters. Take anything you see of value in her argument and use it.

 

[Netrigan]

http://youtu.be/4ZPSrwedvsg?t=22m11s

1. Oh Anita. Even by her standards those are some poor arguments, and are entirely unsubstantiated.
2. I see Hitman still has its sleaze factor set to 11. The jiggling tits when the girl is lying prone and unconscious? Classy.
3. Never heard anything about "Hit man "Stripper killing simulator" diatribe" though.

Tm
Because there really isn't one. She was talking about devs putting certain elements into a scenario knowing they'll be used that way by some players. Thunderb00t's retort is largely centered on the game penalizing you (via a meaningless scoring system) as proof you're not supposed to kill the strippers.

But even then that penalized score was easily negated by hiding the bodies inside a box. Which means there still wasn't much of a "penalty" to begin with, and score reductions to people who don't give a shit isn't exactly off putting to the majority of the players. I believe a rebuttal video of Thunderf00t's criticism pointed that out.

So what's your solution?

Allow the player to kill any and every NPC aside from the dancers? How would that make any logical sense? It would break any immersion the game actually had.

Are you also insinuating that GTA should allow the player to also kill any and every NPC... just not the ones who happen to be in the strip club?

Sorry, I think GTA V already did that.

You can punch people, but I'm pretty sure you can't draw your weapons in the strip club. I no longer have the game, so I can't check.

 

[Lieju]

Now that I think about it, having biracial characters would fit many game-narratives really well.

You get to put the game in an exotic location, and
a) avoid the unfortunate implication of a white hero saving the locals
b) have the protagonist have a connection to the society it takes place in, relatives and backstory etc
c) but also portray them as an outsider who needs to have stuff explained to them

This kind of stuff is very common in fantasy, with half-breeds etc, why not other genres?

 

[Netrigan]

I'm asking you why these strippers/dancing NPCs should operate under a separate set of programming rules over every other NPC.

And... bigger picture? In what way? How is the game discriminatory for allowing these dancers to be killed, when every single other NPC in the game can be killed, including gang members, pedestrians, chefs, police...

That's like calling a store that closes at 10:00pm and asking if they let any Jews in at 10:30pm.

It's like asking a game developer if they can kill strippers in their game when EVERY NPC can be killed in their game.

What I'd like to ask is WHY put a level in a strip club at all.
Or, here's an idea, put it in a male stripclub.

Unless it's just there to throw in nude ladies for eye-candy.
And unless male gamers are too sex-negative to handle sexualized men in their games...

That tends to be the issue.
A complaint for example a friend of mine had about Saints Row (can't remember which one) was not that it had female strippers, that was fully expected considering the tone and the setting.
It was that it ONLY had female strippers.

I kind of had that complaint about GTA V. You could buy a gay club, but you couldn't go in. And why not have some male prostitutes around that part of town. Why not some transsexual prostitutes? I think Trevor would be down for either

 

[Lieju]

I kind of had that complaint about GTA V. You could buy a gay club, but you couldn't go in. And why not have some male prostitutes around that part of town. Why not some transsexual prostitutes? I think Trevor would be down for either

Yes, and that kind of stuff fits the tone and the way GTA is marketed.
Freedom and being able to do crazy stuff (although not as much as with Saint's Row) is the selling point.

So complaining about the lack of diversity in games like GTA, or a game that tries selling itself on character-customisation or freedom is a complaint on the lack of content.

 

[Netrigan]

I kind of had that complaint about GTA V. You could buy a gay club, but you couldn't go in. And why not have some male prostitutes around that part of town. Why not some transsexual prostitutes? I think Trevor would be down for either

Yes, and that kind of stuff fits the tone and the way GTA is marketed.
Freedom and being able to do crazy stuff (although not as much as with Saint's Row) is the selling point.

So complaining about the lack of diversity in games like GTA, or a game that tries selling itself on character-customisation or freedom is a complaint on the lack of content.

Trevor was really the only Anything Goes character in GTA V, so I could see Michael or Franklin being able to interact with said prostitutes but not picking them up... because it wouldn't fit in with their established character. Sort of like how prostitutes were part of Red Dead Redemption, but our hero was established as a faithful husband.

I especially loved the Anything Goes romance options in Saints Row IV, which play out the same regardless of which sex you're playing as. Unlike RPG fans, no one complained about all the Saints Row characters being bisexual

 

[Lono Shrugged]

Not at all, and that misunderstanding is why I steer clear of all this SJW nonsense. I am who I am and I will play what appeals to me. Just because I am a straight white male does not mean I am not open minded. I play whatever game I like the look of and don't discriminate based on the agenda of who is pushing the game at me. I will not play a game to "support" a lifestyle.

[img/]http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/03/GIFS-OK.gif[/img]

you know I think I need a great big sticker that says "where the hell do you people get thease ideas" that would be really handy in thease discussions....


[quote/]I will only play games that appeal to me.

and so you balk at the idea of peopl egetting games that appeal to them?

[quote/]If someone chooses to put me in a box because of who I am then that is to their fault. Likewise, I think games should in the best cases appeal broadly and not target a specific demographic.
Sure, certain games may appeal to people who have certain interests. But if you start dividing the industry, everyone loses. I am not ashamed of who I am, no more than I would expect anyone else to be ashamed of who they are. I play what I want and vote with my wallet, if I want to play games like Gone Home I will buy it. If I don't want to have fake breasts shoved in my face I won't buy the latest team ninja game.[/quote]

you know whats really diverse? books...books are very diverse, in fact just now I'm reading one where the two leads are lesbains its great!

games have been suffering from homoegisation for a long time...hell the next sleeping dogs is a fucking F2P MMO "god knows what" its all bland leads and bland stoeylines because companies don't allow for nay creativity

representation is not the porblem here[/quote]


I am calmly expressing my opinion. There is no need for out of context gifs to try and take the piss out of the points I am making. I am talking against homogenisation. The market is large enough to support whatever anyone wants. But I don't think it's fair to dictate that to anyone. You seem to be taking my comments as anything but literal. I am saying I will not play games that don't appeal to me. Yet in a previous post I said that I don't expect anyone to share my point of view. I did not for a second say that people should all share my beliefs or that certain games should not be made. You are jumping to conclusions. I am not saying that I will not read a book with Lesbians. I am saying that I will not read a shit book with lesbians.
And as the last few weeks have shown, I have good reason to suspect that some games are being pushed at me with an agenda. I thought Gone Home was a very poorly written game. I thought the gameplay and presentation was interesting and fresh. But the subject matter and writing was completely ham handed.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And as the last few weeks have shown, I have good reason to suspect that some games are being pushed at me with an agenda. I thought Gone Home was a very poorly written game. I thought the gameplay and presentation was interesting and fresh. But the subject matter and writing was completely ham handed.

That's fair. A very cogent argument can be made that the writing IS ham handed.

Can you uh...can you give me examples of game writing that ISN'T ham handed? Because if this is the standard you are employing, your list of tolerably written games should be about three titles long.

 

[Netrigan]

Really, the solution is to embrace what you're doing and not get offended that someone noticed.

There's a reason that level is set in a strip club. It's a very obvious reason and everyone knows what it is. Just say "I love boobs and I will not be ashamed." In my experience, the vast majority of women are reasonably tolerant of our tendencies in this regard... at least begrudgingly. Third wave feminism even embraces the sex worker, so Joanna Angel is not judging you harshly for wanting to watch her movies despite being a Feminist.

All that really tells me is that people still have the mindset of prepubescent teenagers.

The fact is, there's nothing special about nudity or a strip club. It doesn't deserve or need it's own special category warranting protection.

Beyond that, just point out the number of potential stripper casualties is kept to a minimum without being particularly noticeable by the player. If, for instance, your presence becomes known, the strippers will flee the level removing them as potential victims.

Once again: How are those NPCs any more or less special than any other? When did being a dancer become a protected class? It's a profession just like any other.

It is a bit of a Bill Gaines defense, so be careful about point out all the ways it can be worse, but there's a fair amount of thought being put into the level to prevent the player from going on a Kill Krazy Stripper rampage.

So explain why it's ok for the player to go on a crazy kill rampage at a flee market.

Mostly, don't over-reach. You can't destroy Sarkeesian's points by undermining one or two examples and so far she's been fairly careful to not leave her central point too exposed.

My intention was never about Anita, only that I find it amusing that the same people who label strip clubs and porn as sexual liberation and "just like any other profession" (I agree), will then turn around and give it a protected status as if it isn't like any other profession.

You can either do the "yes, you have raised some serious points and we'll do our best to give female characters more agency in future games" (which BTW is an easy way to not do much of anything) or you can try the trickier maneuver of justifying a male space where you have more freedom to misbehave. Ogling a stripper isn't disrespectful, whereas ogling your co-worker is. Strip clubs generally turn up in games featuring the sort of characters who would go to strip clubs.

But generally only seen in video game series that have been established for around a decade, sometimes more.

Scratch beneath the surface and Sarkeesian's complaints are really about lazy writing. Combat lazy writing in your games and there's a good chance you'll have a better written game.

Exactly, it is lazy writing. But it's lazy writing relying on overused and ever more boring tropes, not blatant attempts at sexism.

Whoa Buddy (hey, that's actually appropriate here). I'm not really arguing with you here. I'm pointing out how you could argue your case more effectively... although not necessarily you specifically, but I've had the Hitman discussion a few times before and I've seen lots of stupid ways to argue for it.

The solution you were asking for isn't for the game makers to change up anything, but to argue that they're already doing a pretty good job of maintaining the illusion of player agency while minimizing civilian stripper casualties. They already know this is an issue and they're doing everything they can to not be That Game. They're trusting most players aren't going to be creeps and target the strippers, so you're allowed access to them (because it would be weird not to). But, they're also ensuring that if you are That Creep, you can't flood YouTube with your creepy little videos showing all the ways you can abuse strippers in their game.

The problem I see with so many people in these arguments is they try to resist the initial thrust of an argument instead of stepping into it judo-style. Let's not be ashamed of our underlying impulses (while recognizing there is a time and a place for such impulses). Running away from the obvious truth that we like boobs and that's why boobs are in the game starts off the argument with an obvious lie. Hitman advertises itself in a certain way and while I personally think the game would be better suited by moving away from this sort of thing, a strip club level is not at odds with how they advertise it. But too many people want to dismiss the ads, to dismiss the setting, like this was not a calculated move on the part of the game makers. No, they did this on purpose, it's silly to pretend otherwise. Even within the level design, they know that some players will find themselves discovered by the strippers so they allow for that. They create a nearby hiding spot for the bodies. They know what's in that level; but in denying that this is planned (as Thunderb00t does), they ignore the larger picture, of all the ways the game protects the strippers from murderous impulses. I can kill all the bouncers in that level, but I can't kill all the strippers. That's not an accident. They planned the level that way.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Once again: How are those NPCs any more or less special than any other? When did being a dancer become a protected class? It's a profession just like any other.

I'm generally on your side in this...I don't think allowing the slaying of women in a game is necessarily pernicious, any more than I think the slaying of children in a game is necessarily pernicious. If you're leaving a trail of corpses behind you, you've already passed through a certain level of suspension of disbelief where outrageous violence is accepted. Drawing the line at one type of victim over another does seem a bit absurdly selective at that point.

The argument I can see levied against the stripper killings in particular is that the presentation of the victims is highly sexualized. Makes sense, right? They are strippers. Still gives it an extra squick factor (much like the fetish-nuns in the series' rightly derided cinematic), and the supra-realized jiggle physics on the breasts of your victims isn't helping. I rather imagine if the scene was set in a male strip-club with a lot of assless chaps and elephantine testicles that wobbled hugely when they fell to the ground, a certain segment of critical voices might ask "Was this entirely necessary?", and it wouldn't be a criticism without merit.

 

[verdant monkai]

That argument is like saying to gamer gate "instead of whining, you need to join gamer journalism". Notice how that argument never flies anywhere else?

I'm actually a bit confused as to what Gamergate actually is. I also have no idea whats been going on with Zoe Quinn.

I've been moving house recently and haven't had time to catch up on any of it.

 

[Erttheking]

That argument is like saying to gamer gate "instead of whining, you need to join gamer journalism". Notice how that argument never flies anywhere else?

I'm actually a bit confused as to what Gamergate actually is. I also have no idea whats been going on with Zoe Quinn.

I've been moving house recently and haven't had time to catch up on any of it.

Basically a bunch of people criticizing journalistic integrity. There's a metric shit ton of baggage that comes with it, but that's not the point. The point is that if I were to tell them that they just need to stop whining and become journalists if they care about journalism so much, I'd expect them to get angry at me, because I'm dismissing their complaints.

 

[Genocidicles]

Even if a kikstarter was made, news would have to spread, and wouldn't you think people would complain that sites like this were promoting an "SJW" game? You wouldn't think people wouldn't try to stop it or send some kind of threats to the developers or anyone trying to spread it?

Read Only Memories [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gaymercon/read-only-memories-a-tribute-to-90s-adventure-game], a cyberpunk, point and click adventure game kickstarted by GaymerX, partly with the intention of making a game with more LGBT characters in it. It was fully funded, and got press on the Escapist [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/129651-GaymerX-Organizers-Kickstart-Cyperpunk-Game] as well as other mainstream game sites.

Now there were a few posts saying that hyping up the inclusion of gay characters seemed like a 'gimmick', but on the whole it seemed people preferred they actually made their own game instead of complaining to get another one changed. Much like how people dislike Anita Sarkeesian but are okay with The Fine Young Capitalists.

 

[Netrigan]

That argument is like saying to gamer gate "instead of whining, you need to join gamer journalism". Notice how that argument never flies anywhere else?

I'm actually a bit confused as to what Gamergate actually is. I also have no idea whats been going on with Zoe Quinn.

I've been moving house recently and haven't had time to catch up on any of it.

No worries, GamerGate can't quite agree on it... although several of them insist they have.

My take is they're the video game equivalent of Occupy. They're really angry about something which seems to center on Journalistic Ethics, which seems to have little to do with all the previous Journalistic Ethics debates in the past for some reason or other. There's no leadership, so many of the most frequently linked commentators are in reality Anti-Feminist or Anti-SJW activists with no gaming credentials, so much of the rhetoric goes along those lines.

Even 4chan is stepping away from them.

So far, you're not missing terribly much.