A quarter million people petition for the Westboro Baptist Church to be reclassified as a hate group

[Abomination]

This is NOT a slippery slope, this is NOT about taking a stance against churches, this is NOT about infringing on the rights of others. This is a surgical strike against a group who goes out of its way to be reviled and cause suffering for others. Such legislation should not be feared, it should be embraced. Practical solutions to impractical problems.

The 'church' uses its tax exempt status to make its picketing and harassment even easier to carry out. They have no tax overhead. That is significant.

Freedom of peech is never intended to support popular ideas. It is intended to allow minority opinions to be allowed to speak their mind, no matter how hated and reviled they might be. I would argue that this freedom in neccassary for a free, open minded, and progressing society, ironically things the WBC would not likely agree with. It is one of those cases where even if you don't like what someone is saying, even if you despise, hate, and revile what they are saying you should still stand for their right to free speech. If we claim the authority to shut down religoin's status out of disagreement with their policy then we have sacraficed that freedom.

This isn't about freedom of speech, this is about removing a group's status as Tax Exempt due to their constant harassment of people of the United States of America and their complete disregard for common decency.

They will continue to be free to say whatever they like but they will not be subsidised by the taxpayer because they're a "religion".

The reasons why religions had tax exemption in the first place was due to their stabilising effects, the education they provided, healthcare facilities, operating as a pseudo-advice councillor in matters of morality and crossing the line of charity organization. The WBC provides none of those.

 

[Olas]

You HAVE to draw a line somewhere, you can't just treat freedom of speech like an unbending rule without exception. In many cases words are harmless, but not when you're picketing a funeral for a child in front of their mourning family. What WBC does is sadistic and extremely hurtful.

I'll defend the right to spew craziness on a street corner, or in a chapel, or website, have at it. But what Westboro Baptist Church is doing is borderline harassment, something which most places have laws against.

The only thing they're harassing people with is hell.
By your logic, fundamentalist Christians can do the same and silence the LGBT movement since, in their minds, it not only offends them but their god as well. They can even go to hell for not doing anything to stop them. It's their duty to silence them.
What about people like Dawkins or Hitchens? They're offensive as fuck. They should go to jail as well.
People who routinely talk shit about Justin Bieber and other popular artists, lock them up.

Point is, everything offends someone.
There's an old saying for that:
"Stick and stones may break my bones BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HARM ME". Ever heard of that one? It's what many people say to their kids to teach them that words are just words.

Words are just words? People have died over words. Wars have been started because of words. Words can cause emotional torment, but they can also lead to larger actions. Words can be very powerful, you shouldn't treat them lightly.

Anyway, you're comparing two things that aren't even remotely the same, members of the LGBT movement don't picket christian funerals or any christian events to my knowledge. The LGBT isn't a movement centered around hate and condemnation, and even if they were I wouldn't mind as long as they protested in a halfway respectable manner. What WBC does is up in front, hate filled, in bad taste, and doesn't respect a families basic right to peace in a time of mourning.

You seem to think this is about simply offending someone with different beliefs, that's far from it. You think picketing the funeral of a child murdered in a school shooting is offensive because of the WBC's background ideologies? Nobody gives a shit WHY WBC does what they do or what their underlying philosophy or mission is. I couldn't even tell you what they believe except that it clearly involves a hateful god of some kind.
What's offensive is their utter insensitivity towards other human beings, they aren't expressing themselves, they're bullying people, bullying families. They're deliberately tormenting them in a manner that no group, regardless of their beliefs, should have the right to.

Take the KKK, completely insane beliefs, but the way they protest and express those beliefs is reasonable. They have little parades and rallies, they have club gatherings and blog about major events. I'm perfectly fine with them doing all that because they aren't causing any serious emotional harm to anyone. If Westboro baptist church protested like the KKK we wouldn't be having this argument right now.

You say that everything offends someone, but it's not all the same. Words by themselves don't inflict harm, but they can lead to all sorts of worse things. You've heard of children who've committed suicide because they were bullied by peers. What if someone lashed out against members of WBC because what they said hit a nerve, next thing you know these 'harmless' protests are leading to further violence and possibly bloodshed. That's why you have to draw a line somewhere. It doesn't mean all groups who disagree have to remain quiet, it means that there should be some sort of standard that organizations are held to.

 

[Leemaster777]

While I appreciate the sentiment behind this, frankly, its ludicrous, and doesn't really stand a chance of working. The WBC is a hateful, despicable group, led by a hateful, despicable man. But at this point, no one really takes them seriously. And since they seem to CRAVE attention, all this is really doing is adding fuel to the fire. Best just to leave these freaks be and let them die out on their own.

 

[emeraldrafael]

...

...........well after searching youtube briefly for a counter-protest against Westboro in which people dressed like clowns and had funny signs, I can't seem to find it. But yeah, as the saying goes: "The greatest insult one can give to an enemy is to ignore them." Don't give the attention whores the attention they want, just laugh at their ignorant asses.

<youtube=6e5hRLbCaCs>

Not clowns with funny signs, but dave grohl and the foo fighters did this once when the WBC was around to protest once of their concerts. was pretty funny. other then that there's pic of people with signs standing near the WBC with their own signs to make them look like they're together.

 

[Micalas]

To those who are saying we should have targeted legislation curbing their freedom of speech, I'm glad you'll never be in power. Just imagine if it were the other way around. If the opinions of WBC were held by the majority, I'm sure you'd totally be in favor of your speech being curtailed.

Unless there is a threat of physical harm, your feelings are not important enough to get something banned. No ones feelings are.

 

[Strazdas]

They already HAVE "banned" us. We're all going to hell, remember?

If we label them a hate group, then it means little to them. It just means that they're a hate group and not recognized as a church.

And no, their hate doesn't justify banning us, seeing how they're less than a hundred people versus CONTINENTS of people who think they're a hate group. In this case, majority rules.

you can go and express your freedom of speech? they havent banned you then. If we label thme as hate group it means little to them, but shows to us that we are no better.
If majority rules = right then we would still have slavery, no women able to vote and many other things that were raised up and brought to mainstream by a minority. majority rules lead to stupidity rules.

What needs to be determined is if their harassment is harmful, or if it's something that can be ignored and laughed off. I'm feeling pretty certain it's the former of the two, and thus would support this reclassification. As someone said on the first page, this is a surgical strike on a cancer in our society. This isn't supporting legislation that says all religious groups that picket are now hate groups.

technically, there is no harrasment. practically, they are trying thier best to get into the spotlight, by pretty bad means but still ones that are legal. so we take a surgical strike agasint a cancer of society. next thing we take a surgical strike agasint another group many people dont like, for example (now this example woudl have been better 50 years ago, but i think you got enough imagination) gays. lets ban people from being gay because majorrity doesnt like it.

Unfortunately the link you posted doesn't work, but that's something interesting, I did not know that they had a different bible (if that's true), but my other point still stands, it doesn't matter what your beliefs are, so long as you intentionally spread hate (or act hatefully against others as the WBC has admitted to doing) you will be seen as a hate group inside of that country, it's perspective, and it's pretty simple to classify, do they target specific groups? Yes, do they target individuals and families within those groups? Yes, do they go out of their way to attack the people in those groups? Yes they do, they go out of their way to have protests and incite the families, therefore verbally attacking them, so what does this spread if not hate? Of course I'm betting this isn't all that they do, but from what I've found spreading hate is a large part of it, you do not need to spend all of your time spreading hate (and sometimes even just a small amount of your time) to get you classified as a hate group. Now let's look at my local church, the answer to ALL of the above is no, so therefore they are not a hate group.

Frankly, it doesn't matter who you are and why you are doing what you do, a large sewing club could get together an intentionally target a minority and they would be seen as a hate group, should we then classify all sewing clubs as hate groups? Of course not, the main point I was trying to make was your actions speak louder than your words or beliefs.

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?p=823119
for some reason the thread id has been copied twice, weird. should work now.
does your local church not target specific groups? strange, as pretty much any church claim that non-believers in that religion are not to be desired, targeting specific group. i dont know how much your local church does what, but ours go as far as to tell people who to vote for because "god wants so". wouldnt that be easy to classify as hate agasint another udner premise of god? christiasn go out of their way to attack atheists as well, should we classify christians as a hate group, and atheists as well for fighting back? maybe we should classify whole world as hate group.
And i know i am in a loosing argument here, from the first post i knew i was playing devils advocate, but you people do say you want to see more different opinions.

 

[Epicspoon]

they suck as ppl but everyone has a right to their own opinion and beliefs

captcha happy full moon. watch out

And if this passes and they really truly believe in what they are doing they will continue to follow their religion. If they don't continue to follow it proves that they were either just giving into peer pressure and were trying to fit in somewhere or that they thought that being the kid in class who stands on his desk blowing a party whistle with his nose made them important in the world.

 

[madster11]

You know the thing that i don't understand?

These people are doing this in the US. The country where it's legal to own a motherfucking minigun, bolted onto the top of your SUV. And yet they haven't been shot yet.
How?
How the hell? I'm very, very surprised nobody near one of their funeral protests has just snapped and started shooting yet. It's not like they'd be missed, anyway. Surely their family members would be fine with it - after all, they'd be in 'heaven' for doing 'gods work'. Unless they know, deep down, in their subconscious, they're really doing the devils work and get to enjoy eternity in the special hell reserved for child molesters and people who talk in movies.

Captcha: eat cous cous
...ok

 

[Maze1125]

so we take a surgical strike agasint a cancer of society. next thing we take a surgical strike agasint another group many people dont like, for example (now this example woudl have been better 50 years ago, but i think you got enough imagination) gays. lets ban people from being gay because majorrity doesnt like it.

A slippery slope fallacy is still just that, a fallacy.

 

[Strazdas]

so we take a surgical strike agasint a cancer of society. next thing we take a surgical strike agasint another group many people dont like, for example (now this example woudl have been better 50 years ago, but i think you got enough imagination) gays. lets ban people from being gay because majorrity doesnt like it.

A slippery slope fallacy is still just that, a fallacy.

so we take a surgical strike agasint a cancer of society. next thing we take a surgical strike agasint another group many people dont like, for example (now this example woudl have been better 50 years ago, but i think you got enough imagination) gays. lets ban people from being gay because majorrity doesnt like it.

A slippery slope fallacy is still just that, a fallacy.

tell that to censorship, pretty much all of it. slippery slope is not always a falacy. Those who give up liberty for security deserves neither and will loose both.

 

[lechat]

they suck as ppl but everyone has a right to their own opinion and beliefs

captcha happy full moon. watch out

And if this passes and they really truly believe in what they are doing they will continue to follow their religion. If they don't continue to follow it proves that they were either just giving into peer pressure and were trying to fit in somewhere or that they thought that being the kid in class who stands on his desk blowing a party whistle with his nose made them important in the world.

the bible teaches to obey the law as long as it doesn't conflict with biblical teaching

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

The way I see it, one of two things will ultimately happen:

1) Their tax exempt status will be revoked, causing them to keep their hateful mound of moronic shit to themselves

OR

2) The cycle of hate will eventually come full circle and someone (or some group) will attack them with lethal weapons and probably kill of few of them, if not all of them.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if either scenario came true, as both would greatly reduce the amount of bile and hatred they spew unto this planet. I just hope someone captures what happens to them on camera so I can be mildly entertained for a brief few minutes.

 

[SkellgrimOrDave]

Government shouldn't do it, do what hells angels did at the funeral for the school shooting victims and bar them entry. Or just burn their church down. Problem solved!

 

[talker]

Well, let's look at the facts, shall we?

-they picket at funerals of nearly everyone who doesn't agree with them, holding up signs saying the deceased is burning in hell, amongst other things

- I quote from Wikipedia: 'On May 14, 2008, two days after the deadly 2008 Sichuan earthquake, WBC issued a press release thanking God for the heavy loss of life in China, and praying "for many more earthquakes to kill many more thousands of impudent and ungrateful Chinese".'

and '11-year-old brain tumor victim Harry Moseley raised £500,000 for charity but Marge Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church criticized his family for not teaching him to "obey God". This comment within a few hours of the boy's death caused great distress to the bereaved'

so yes I do think it's a hate group and should be classified as such. There is a line between freedom of speech and flinging insults at everyone who isn't them.

 

[Warachia]

Unfortunately the link you posted doesn't work, but that's something interesting, I did not know that they had a different bible (if that's true), but my other point still stands, it doesn't matter what your beliefs are, so long as you intentionally spread hate (or act hatefully against others as the WBC has admitted to doing) you will be seen as a hate group inside of that country, it's perspective, and it's pretty simple to classify, do they target specific groups? Yes, do they target individuals and families within those groups? Yes, do they go out of their way to attack the people in those groups? Yes they do, they go out of their way to have protests and incite the families, therefore verbally attacking them, so what does this spread if not hate? Of course I'm betting this isn't all that they do, but from what I've found spreading hate is a large part of it, you do not need to spend all of your time spreading hate (and sometimes even just a small amount of your time) to get you classified as a hate group. Now let's look at my local church, the answer to ALL of the above is no, so therefore they are not a hate group.

Frankly, it doesn't matter who you are and why you are doing what you do, a large sewing club could get together an intentionally target a minority and they would be seen as a hate group, should we then classify all sewing clubs as hate groups? Of course not, the main point I was trying to make was your actions speak louder than your words or beliefs.

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?p=823119
for some reason the thread id has been copied twice, weird. should work now.
does your local church not target specific groups? strange, as pretty much any church claim that non-believers in that religion are not to be desired, targeting specific group. i dont know how much your local church does what, but ours go as far as to tell people who to vote for because "god wants so". wouldnt that be easy to classify as hate agasint another udner premise of god? christiasn go out of their way to attack atheists as well, should we classify christians as a hate group, and atheists as well for fighting back? maybe we should classify whole world as hate group.
And i know i am in a loosing argument here, from the first post i knew i was playing devils advocate, but you people do say you want to see more different opinions.

Really? they tell you who to vote for? To me that seems to be a minor abuse in power (I guess that's more an opinion but it doesn't seem like they have any concrete ground to prove that's what God wants), but telling people who to vote for is not spreading hate unless A) They legitimately hate the opposition and want them to fail (they need to say this otherwise they are ignoring the opposition, not targeting them), and B) They take this hatred outside of their specific group.

Like I said before, with my church, the answer to all of the above is no, they don't target specific groups, or really anyone, the closest it possibly gets is praying for somebody's (and it doesn't matter if they are religious or not) life to improve when something horrible has happened, then asking whether or not we should donate time/food/money to help them out, which is the exact opposite of spreading hate.

Thanks for reposting that link, it link works now, and I think I can now see where WBC are coming from, the problem is they don't really have any ground to stand on if you examine the rest of the source material, they cherry pick which passages they like then make their own values out of those, which would be fine if they didn't try to enforce their beliefs so fervently onto others, which is why they can be classified as a hate group, the reason the other groups who are even more set than WBC would not be classified as a hate group is because they don't spend time trying to enforce their beliefs onto others, they keep their hatred within themselves, or if they are vocal, then it is a small minority that doesn't fairly represent a large group.

 

[RJ 17]

...

...........well after searching youtube briefly for a counter-protest against Westboro in which people dressed like clowns and had funny signs, I can't seem to find it. But yeah, as the saying goes: "The greatest insult one can give to an enemy is to ignore them." Don't give the attention whores the attention they want, just laugh at their ignorant asses.

<youtube=6e5hRLbCaCs>

Not clowns with funny signs, but dave grohl and the foo fighters did this once when the WBC was around to protest once of their concerts. was pretty funny. other then that there's pic of people with signs standing near the WBC with their own signs to make them look like they're together.

Heh heh, I was actually at that one (took place in my home town of Kansas City).

Another really good one was when Kevin Smith made a silly sign and went to stand with them to protest one of his own movies just for the hell of it.

 

[Eddie the head]

I think they have to complete right to protest. I don't think they should be a tax exempt church though. Although I have reservations about the whole "Tax exempt" thing for churches anyway but I don't want to get into that.

 

[RJ 17]

Snip

The thing is, though, labeling them a Hate Group in no way censors or infringes upon their rights. It takes away their Tax Exempt status, but that's about it. It isn't the government or the maority singling out a group of people and making them a target, it is society at large labeling a group for what it is: a hate group.

Is the KKK a church or a hate group? They claim that they act on a religious basis, so what's the difference? If WBC was labled a hate group, they'd still be able to make their signs and have their protests, just like how the KKK still has marches and protests of their own.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and hates like a duck, then what you're looking at is a duck. A very disturbed, disgruntled duck, but a duck none the less.