A question about Solo

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

*sees 'SJW' in the title*


No, it is not a good video.


'But you did not even watch it!'


Yeah, and I also never stuck a wet fork into an electrical socket, I still know it is a bad idea.

Yes, I thought someone might object to that.

You know what, fair enough. TL;DW, Becker showcases tons of Youtube channels from people of all walks of life who, much like himself, have made videos criticizing current Star Wars films for a variety of reasons, and points out that the response has been, on the part of so-called "professional" media, to completely ignore said criticism and instead publish demonstrably biased trash like this [http://archive.li/P0lap], and on Disney's and Lucasfilms', to adopt the Paul Feig approach to marketing and PR, apparently believing the only reason it didn't work two years ago was that they weren't quite insulting enough towards their own audience.

Here is a video that summarizes many of my issues with the new Star Wars films without devolving into a sexist tirade of BS.




Yes, for those aware of the channel, often his videos are more for humor sake, but this was a lot more legit criticism than just jokes.


Look, I actually think the new Star Wars are pretty terrible, but the diversity is actually the one good thing about them. Unfortunately, the sexists and racists are making it harder for real criticism to apply. I blame no one but the bigots here...and J.J. Abrams.

Firstly, I hate Cinemasins.

Secondly, I just want Star Wars to look and feel like this, that's all:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/33/6f/cd/336fcd91ec84443c5b014055f85f7347.jpg

 

[Spade Lead]

I am taking my father and kids to their first midnight opening screening of a Star Wars movie because this is the last one I expect to have any desire to see in the opening month, much less opening night, and none of them have ever been to a Star Wars opening event, and I haven't been since Revenge of the Sith. TFA wanted to be good so hard that it ended up falling flat. It tried so hard to build off of nostalgia it didn't deserve that it had no unique qualities or interesting plot points that made me care. Rey was so badly written that a better director had to come along and come out with the only reasonable ass-pull excuse he could think of and it still made her an overpowered Mary Sue with no justification for her powers. I was satisfied with the way she was subsumed by the Dark Side in the cave (despite the fact that spending her entire life on a desert planet she still somehow managed to know how to swim as well as I did in high school, when I was the fastest swimmer in my group of friends and routinely spent all day every day in the summer in the pool or ocean) as a partial explanation for some of her strength, but the whole "Light Side rising to meet the power of the Dark" doesn't make sense on the simple premise of that is exactly what DIDN'T happen with Vader and Palpatine, and there is no justification for it in the previous canon.

I...really don't get this.

If you say "TLJ doesn't feel like Star Wars," sure, I'd bite - that's kind of the point of it. But looking at the films so far, what have we got? Force Awakens, which is basically New Hope 2.0, and that extends to the ship design (Last Jedi at least gives us something new). We have Rogue One, which is different in tone, sure, but still a prequel, and drenched in nostalgia. Then we have Solo, which is another prequel, and drenched even further in nostalgia. If anything, apart from TLJ, Star Wars is feeling too much like Star Wars, or at least, is stuck in a rut about it.

The difference for me is simple. TLJ was a fun movie set in the wrong universe, that breaks the current universe by bringing in things that had don't belong in the saga. The very things that make Rogue One appealing are out of place in a movie set over 30 years after it takes place. The Republic and First Order should have been rival powers, not space terrorists funded by a corrupt government and a neo-nazi Parody that is supposedly evil just because of the way one guy gives a speech standing in front of a weapon that he then uses to decapitate the military and civil command structure of said corrupt government.


The problems with TLJ (Besides the blatant ant-capitalism and anti-weapons manufacturer propaganda) were the terrible story telling plotholes and the ridiculous message about "Toxic Masculinity" that people keep claiming aren't present in the movie. I enjoyed the movie in theaters way more than Episode VII, but once I started thinking about the actual storyline, the movie is just badly written and even worse in pacing.

Examples of the "Toxic Mascuinity" double standard include but are not limited to:


When Poe destroys the dreadnought he is rebuked for being negligent and foolhardy, despite the fact that within the next three scenes he is proven to not only have saved the fleet, but that had he failed to destroy the dreadnought the bomber fleet would have been destroyed in the hangar anyway, thus negating the whole argument anyway.

Then, when Finn wants to lead Rey away from the fleet, and despite the fact that he has literally fuck all to do with the Resistance, he is subdued as a deserter and told that he has no right to abandon the resistance he never signed up for, and is wrong for even considering it.

Then Vice Admiral Gender Studies informs Poe that Leia made a terrible decision that was based entirely on an incorrect assumption and he had no business being in the chain of command despite the fact that he was still 5th in the chain of command (He is still Commander Air Group, after all), and rather than being a decently competent military commander, she decided to be a living piece of incapable shit and violate the basic precept of military command "A busy crew is a happy crew." When she needed to be bolstering morale, she was off in her corner brooding about how everyone needs to shut the fuck up and watch their friends die because she orders it, violating the second most important order in a military command, "Never give an order you know won't be obeyed."

Several crewmembers help Poe foment a (Well deserved, at least by pirate and in my veteran opinion) mutiny, in the hopes that maybe a few more of the crew don't have to die even as Holdo sits there not only watching them to die, but encouraging them to do so, for the good of the resistance.

Rose becomes this annoying super-anti-capitalism messenger of how there is literally only one way to become rich in the entire fucking universe, and the literally thousands of people in that casino could only ever be CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and on the board of directors for companies that manufacture weapons for the First Order. Then when DJ proves them wrong, he becomes a bad guy by turning on them and selling them out to the First Order, because "Oh, look at that" another Man Plan backfires and DJ overhears the plan Holdo should have relayed to Poe in the first place and uses it to save his own skin when shit goes sideways.

Meanwhile, Rey runs to the First Order flagship and is brought before Snoke like the incompetent idiot she actually is, and yet everything goes exactly as she needs it to, right until Kylo Ren decides not to join her because he is right there, and the ultimate power of supreme leader is too seductive to decline. So she just quietly walks away with a sad look on her face and literally no consequences.

Holdo gives her life for the Resistance, like she had planned on anyway, so despite the fact that her plan is damaged by the machinations of the evil men who ruined her plan, she still succeeded in saving the resistance.

Time and again we are shown Women succeeding while using the same stupid ass-backward tactics that the men do, but the women can't fail whereas the men fail even when they succeed (Poe).

I don't mind the female leads (Although not having a single reoccurring alien does tend to make the movies feel like there is no overlap), but the writing for the new trilogy is shit, and the directing and writing for Rogue One were much better, and I expect Ron Howard to do the same for Solo.

Disney Star Wars has none of the heart that the prequels did, even if they aren't as good, cinematically. Star Wars was about telling a story and pushing the boundary of film making, and the new trilogy hasn't really done either of those things.

Sorry, I used to take my Star Wars very seriously, before Disney ruined my interest with their idea to have JJ Abrams direct the first movie, put in a bunch of story threads that went nowhere, then have two other directors finish out the trilogy, each writing their movies as they wish without an overarching plan, or at least allowing the outlines JJ Abrams wrote to be thrown out by the follow-on directors, as Rian Johnson did.

Also, from a writer's standpoint, you can't have a story set 30 years after the first 6 movies be nothing but dead ends and mysteries that don't have answers or payoffs without it feeling like a separate universe, and that is probably why the new trilogy feels so different and removed from the OT to us. It just has nothing in common with the old movies despite ripping so much off from them.

 

[Hawki]

but the whole "Light Side rising to meet the power of the Dark" doesn't make sense on the simple premise of that is exactly what DIDN'T happen with Vader and Palpatine, and there is no justification for it in the previous canon.

Because if something doesn't happen before, it can never happen.

Nevermind that Anakin is concieved via the will of the Force, so it's well established to have an active hand in things.

The difference for me is simple. TLJ was a fun movie set in the wrong universe, that breaks the current universe by bringing in things that had don't belong in the saga.

Such as?

The very things that make Rogue One appealing

What things?

The Republic and First Order should have been rival powers, not space terrorists funded by a corrupt government and a neo-nazi Parody

Disagree it's a parody, but I'm sympathetic to this idea.

that is supposedly evil just because of the way one guy gives a speech standing in front of a weapon that he then uses to decapitate the military and civil command structure of said corrupt government.

In TFA alone, it's well established that the First Order abducts children and inducts them against their will, along with killing civilians wholesale. There's plenty to dislike about the First Order before the Hosnian system is destroyed.

The problems with TLJ (Besides the blatant ant-capitalism and anti-weapons manufacturer propaganda)

What?

were the terrible story telling plotholes and the ridiculous message about "Toxic Masculinity"

Oh God, here we go...

that people keep claiming aren't present in the movie.

Because they aren't.

I enjoyed the movie in theaters way more than Episode VII, but once I started thinking about the actual storyline, the movie is just badly written and even worse in pacing.

More I thought about it, the more I liked it.

When Poe destroys the dreadnought he is rebuked for being negligent and foolhardy, despite the fact that within the next three scenes he is proven to not only have saved the fleet, but that had he failed to destroy the dreadnought the bomber fleet would have been destroyed in the hangar anyway, thus negating the whole argument anyway.

Which is related to "toxic masculinity"...how, exactly?

Nevermind that your dreadnought claim is dubious for any number of reasons (range? Firing time? Accuracy?), you've clearly missed the point about Poe's actions, that playing the hero isn't something that always works out, even if it has in past iterations of the franchise. But that aside, if Poe was female, you could have the exact same scenario with the exact same dialogue (bar pronouns) and nothing would change. "Toxic masculinity/feminity" only works as a concept if it's related to gender. None of Poe's actions are.

Then, when Finn wants to lead Rey away from the fleet, and despite the fact that he has literally fuck all to do with the Resistance, he is subdued as a deserter and told that he has no right to abandon the resistance he never signed up for, and is wrong for even considering it.

Lead Rey away from the fleet?

Also, wrong, he helped the Resistance attack Starkiller Base, it's logical to assume he's part of the Resistance. And Rose calling him out on it has less to do with Finn, and more to do with her - she's never met Finn, but has heard of him, so him not living up to expectations (another theme) triggers the response in her (in part).

Then Vice Admiral Gender Studies

...seriously?

informs Poe that Leia made a terrible decision that was based entirely on an incorrect assumption and he had no business being in the chain of command despite the fact that he was still 5th in the chain of command (He is still Commander Air Group, after all),

What decision did Leia make?

How is he 5th in command? I mean, he could be, but we're aware of three Resistance admirals/leaders (Leia, Holdo, Ackbar), and he's already been demoted by this point.

and rather than being a decently competent military commander, she decided to be a living piece of incapable shit and violate the basic precept of military command "A busy crew is a happy crew." When she needed to be bolstering morale, she was off in her corner brooding about how everyone needs to shut the fuck up and watch their friends die because she orders it, violating the second most important order in a military command, "Never give an order you know won't be obeyed."

While the film could have benefitted from clarity at this (I thought it was obvious why she didn't tell many people - the risk of a First Order spy), Holdo's failure is, guess what, a failure in film that has themes dealing with failure.

Rose becomes this annoying super-anti-capitalism messenger

How?

of how there is literally only one way to become rich in the entire fucking universe,

Where does it imply that?

and the literally thousands of people in that casino could only ever be CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and on the board of directors for companies that manufacture weapons for the First Order.

Again, where does it imply that? The impression I got was that most of the people in Canto Bight are regular people. Rich people, but still, regular. And while Canto Bight arguably has something to say against the arms trade (imagine that, politics in Star Wars...obviously that's never been present before), the major theme of Canto Bight is far more related to Finn's arc of seeing the world in the shades of grey it really is, rather than a more dualistic view.

Then when DJ proves them wrong, he becomes a bad guy by turning on them and selling them out to the First Order, because "Oh, look at that" another Man Plan backfires and DJ overhears the plan Holdo should have relayed to Poe in the first place and uses it to save his own skin when shit goes sideways.

Again, see the theme of failure.

Meanwhile, Rey runs to the First Order flagship and is brought before Snoke like the incompetent idiot she actually is,

Um, what? Rey's making the wrong decision. The reason she's making the wrong decision is she believes that because Luke was able to redeem Vader by travelling into the wolf's den, she can do the same, because, well, why wouldn't it? That doesn't make her incompetent, it makes her naieve - again, theme of failure.

thi and yet everything goes exactly as she needs it to,

What? Everything goes wrong until then. It goes wrong almost as soon as she boards the ship. Compare Kylo's mannerisms here to Vader's in RotJ.

right until Kylo Ren decides not to join her because he is right there, and the ultimate power of supreme leader is too seductive to decline. So she just quietly walks away with a sad look on her face and literally no consequences.

What?

Rey doesn't walk away - I'm assuming she runs, given the sorry state the Supremacy is in. And I disagree with your interpretation of Kylo's motives, but fine, let's move on.

Holdo gives her life for the Resistance, like she had planned on anyway, so despite the fact that her plan is damaged by the machinations of the evil men who ruined her plan, she still succeeded in saving the resistance.

I doubt her plan was the hyperspace kamikaze, when the original plan was to use the Raddus as a visual shield to hide the escape pods. And Holdo doesn't save the Resistance. She buys time, sure, but the First Order still lands on Crait. The Resistance still suffers. Luke is ultimately the one who saves the Resistance. It's Luke who's mythologized, not Holdo.

Time and again we are shown Women succeeding while using the same stupid ass-backward tactics that the men do, but the women can't fail whereas the men fail even when they succeed (Poe).

Right, because women never fail in Last Jedi.

Except Holdo. And Rey. And Rose. And Phasma. And...nup, that's all.

Oh, wait, Leia doesn't fail. So...anti-men, something something...

I don't mind the female leads (Although not having a single reoccurring alien does tend to make the movies feel like there is no overlap), but the writing for the new trilogy is shit,

Disagree.

I mean, I have gripes, sure, but the writing is a far cry from "shit."

and the directing and writing for Rogue One were much better,

Rogue One was lackustre. It's only saved by its third act. If you look at it from a writing standpoint, it's lacklustre.

Sorry, I used to take my Star Wars very seriously, before Disney ruined my interest with their idea to have JJ Abrams direct the first movie, put in a bunch of story threads that went nowhere,

Such as?

Bearing in mind that there's still one film that can answer them (though really, what's there left to answer about TFA apart from Maz getting Luke's lightsaber, and Snoke, where argubaly, answering stuff about him would be detrimental)

least allowing the outlines JJ Abrams wrote to be thrown out by the follow-on directors, as Rian Johnson did.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars%3A_Episode_VIII_The_Last_Jedi#Development

That's a gross oversimplification. Also ignores that TFA ignored Lucas's original Ep. 7 ideas, but Ep. 8 re-uses them.

Star Wars is long past the stage of original authoratorial intent. It's arguably been that way since the EU.

Also, from a writer's standpoint, you can't have a story set 30 years after the first 6 movies be nothing but dead ends and mysteries that don't have answers or payoffs

Such as?

Other than Snoke.

without it feeling like a separate universe, and that is probably why the new trilogy feels so different and removed from the OT to us. It just has nothing in common with the old movies despite ripping so much off from them.

Disagree. TFA is soaked in nostalgia. TLJ distances itself from it. That's only 33% of the new trilogy being "removed" (or "mimicking"). Frankly, IMO, it should have distanced itself from the start. If you're going to give us a 30 year time jump, make it seem like a thirty year time jump.

 

[Ogoid]

"Dozens" is being generous.

Fair enough, poor choice of words. "Several", then.

Since he's fond of the potato analogy, let's say I want to address the issue of homophobia. I show people showing that they're not homophobic. That doesn't disprove the notion the homophobia exists. Or to address the video directly, congratulations, not everyone is an asshole who likes to make death threats against directors and verbally abuse anyone who might disagree with them. Doesn't change the fact that those people still exist.

Well, yes, those people exist; this is the internet. One can find examples of people being asses in any particular way if they really want to...

An article that points out toxic fandom, that provides direct quotes of detestable language...is baised? One its first paragraphs is Something is deeply broken among the Star Wars faithful. Respectable discourse has deterioriated completely as a small but determined minority of ?fans? turn to the Dark Side?hate-spewing assholes looking to ruin the party for everyone, and often succeeding. Notice the words "small but determined" minority. It doesn't preclude people having legitimate grievances with TLJ, but its onus is to focus on the people who post the garbage the article quotes verbatim.

...but to act like they're representative of anything but their own personal inadequacies only betrays one's own personal biases, as far as I'm concerned.

Here is a video that summarizes many of my issues with the new Star Wars films without devolving into a sexist tirade of BS.




Yes, for those aware of the channel, often his videos are more for humor sake, but this was a lot more legit criticism than just jokes.


Look, I actually think the new Star Wars are pretty terrible, but the diversity is actually the one good thing about them. Unfortunately, the sexists and racists are making it harder for real criticism to apply. I blame no one but the bigots here...and J.J. Abrams.

Yes, I saw that. It's a good video.

Thing is? It makes pretty much the exact same points as most of these supposed "sexists and racists", including those I've linked to in this very thread.

Really, if anyone can rise up to Becker's challenge and find him a video with wide support saying, to put it in Pablo "Brand Communications Manager" Hidalgo's so very artful words, that "Our continued and debilitating obsession with our childhood passions was caveman masculine until the dames ruined it"... I would very much like to watch him eat that picture on live stream.

 

[Spade Lead]

but the whole "Light Side rising to meet the power of the Dark" doesn't make sense on the simple premise of that is exactly what DIDN'T happen with Vader and Palpatine, and there is no justification for it in the previous canon.

Because if something doesn't happen before, it can never happen.

Nevermind that Anakin is concieved via the will of the Force, so it's well established to have an active hand in things.

The difference for me is simple. TLJ was a fun movie set in the wrong universe, that breaks the current universe by bringing in things that had don't belong in the saga.

Such as?

Shields don't stop missiles but do stop plasma blasts that arc parabolicly through space. Ships can continuously acclerate through space at such a rate that they can't catch each other, but other smaller ships can out accelerate them and then fly through those shields or hit through those shields with missiles or blaster rounds. Ships just randomly line up behind each other in whatever formation they feel works without a single thought to fire-arcs, overlapping shields, or fields of fire while giving chase. Autopilot doesn't exist and can't pilot a ship in a straight line so that people can evacuate it without cluing in the First Order that a ship is empty. X-Wings can fly between turbolaser turrets but TIE fighters can't, despite the fact that TIEs are traditionally more maneuverable due to a lack of shields. Missile turrets are no longer a thing that can target X-Wings, despite the fact that one targeted a TIE fighter in TFA. Shields in the Sequel Trilogy no longer work in the same way they did in the Original Trilogy or Prequel Trilogy, and are actually less effective than either. I can certainly come up with more if you would like...

The very things that make Rogue One appealing

What things?

The nostalgia: The action, the factions, the struggle, the way things feel familiar

that is supposedly evil just because of the way one guy gives a speech standing in front of a weapon that he then uses to decapitate the military and civil command structure of said corrupt government.

In TFA alone, it's well established that the First Order abducts children and inducts them against their will, along with killing civilians wholesale. There's plenty to dislike about the First Order before the Hosnian system is destroyed.

Granted, but that is really no worse than the Clone Troopers in the terms of slavery, and we are meant to root for the Republic.

I enjoyed the movie in theaters way more than Episode VII, but once I started thinking about the actual storyline, the movie is just badly written and even worse in pacing.

More I thought about it, the more I liked it.

And that is your prerogative, but the Canto Bight scene is completely unnecessary, overly drawn out, and does nothing to further the story except give Rose a chance to speak out about how evil rich people are destroying the galaxy simply by making lots of money and spending it how they want

When Poe destroys the dreadnought he is rebuked for being negligent and foolhardy, despite the fact that within the next three scenes he is proven to not only have saved the fleet, but that had he failed to destroy the dreadnought the bomber fleet would have been destroyed in the hangar anyway, thus negating the whole argument anyway.

Which is related to "toxic masculinity"...how, exactly?

This was all one long series of examples building to a single point...

Nevermind that your dreadnought claim is dubious for any number of reasons (range? Firing time? Accuracy?), you've clearly missed the point about Poe's actions, that playing the hero isn't something that always works out, even if it has in past iterations of the franchise. But that aside, if Poe was female, you could have the exact same scenario with the exact same dialogue (bar pronouns) and nothing would change. "Toxic masculinity/feminity" only works as a concept if it's related to gender. None of Poe's actions are.

Then, when Finn wants to lead Rey away from the fleet, and despite the fact that he has literally fuck all to do with the Resistance, he is subdued as a deserter and told that he has no right to abandon the resistance he never signed up for, and is wrong for even considering it.

Lead Rey away from the fleet?

Also, wrong, he helped the Resistance attack Starkiller Base, it's logical to assume he's part of the Resistance. And Rose calling him out on it has less to do with Finn, and more to do with her - she's never met Finn, but has heard of him, so him not living up to expectations (another theme) triggers the response in her (in part).

Then Vice Admiral Gender Studies

...seriously?

My favorite nickname for her, but more based on the fact that she is obviously a political appointee with all the right connections than a truly great commander with a long list of actual accomplishments.

informs Poe that Leia made a terrible decision that was based entirely on an incorrect assumption and he had no business being in the chain of command despite the fact that he was still 5th in the chain of command (He is still Commander Air Group, after all),

What decision did Leia make?

How is he 5th in command? I mean, he could be, but we're aware of three Resistance admirals/leaders (Leia, Holdo, Ackbar), and he's already been demoted by this point.

Leia demoted him, and he is fifth in command behind Admiral Holdo, Captain of the flagship, XO of the flagship, OPS, and possibly one more CO who may or may not outrank him. This is based on him still being Commander Air Group, who is normally 3rd in line of succession behind the CO and XO on an Aircraft Carrier, but also having two visiting Admirals and Commanders to replace Leia and Ackbar who were incapacitated.

and rather than being a decently competent military commander, she decided to be a living piece of incapable shit and violate the basic precept of military command "A busy crew is a happy crew." When she needed to be bolstering morale, she was off in her corner brooding about how everyone needs to shut the fuck up and watch their friends die because she orders it, violating the second most important order in a military command, "Never give an order you know won't be obeyed."

While the film could have benefitted from clarity at this (I thought it was obvious why she didn't tell many people - the risk of a First Order spy), Holdo's failure is, guess what, a failure in film that has themes dealing with failure.

Rose becomes this annoying super-anti-capitalism messenger

How?

of how there is literally only one way to become rich in the entire fucking universe,

Where does it imply that?

In the movie her lines are literally "There is only one business that gets you this rich in the whole galaxy. Selling weapons to the First Order."

and the literally thousands of people in that casino could only ever be CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and on the board of directors for companies that manufacture weapons for the First Order.

Again, where does it imply that? The impression I got was that most of the people in Canto Bight are regular people. Rich people, but still, regular. And while Canto Bight arguably has something to say against the arms trade (imagine that, politics in Star Wars...obviously that's never been present before), the major theme of Canto Bight is far more related to Finn's arc of seeing the world in the shades of grey it really is, rather than a more dualistic view.

Then when DJ proves them wrong, he becomes a bad guy by turning on them and selling them out to the First Order, because "Oh, look at that" another Man Plan backfires and DJ overhears the plan Holdo should have relayed to Poe in the first place and uses it to save his own skin when shit goes sideways.

Again, see the theme of failure.

Meanwhile, Rey runs to the First Order flagship and is brought before Snoke like the incompetent idiot she actually is,

Um, what? Rey's making the wrong decision. The reason she's making the wrong decision is she believes that because Luke was able to redeem Vader by travelling into the wolf's den, she can do the same, because, well, why wouldn't it? That doesn't make her incompetent, it makes her naieve - again, theme of failure.

thi and yet everything goes exactly as she needs it to,

What? Everything goes wrong until then. It goes wrong almost as soon as she boards the ship. Compare Kylo's mannerisms here to Vader's in RotJ.

right until Kylo Ren decides not to join her because he is right there, and the ultimate power of supreme leader is too seductive to decline. So she just quietly walks away with a sad look on her face and literally no consequences.

What?

Rey doesn't walk away - I'm assuming she runs, given the sorry state the Supremacy is in. And I disagree with your interpretation of Kylo's motives, but fine, let's move on.[]

Holdo gives her life for the Resistance, like she had planned on anyway, so despite the fact that her plan is damaged by the machinations of the evil men who ruined her plan, she still succeeded in saving the resistance.

I doubt her plan was the hyperspace kamikaze, when the original plan was to use the Raddus as a visual shield to hide the escape pods. And Holdo doesn't save the Resistance. She buys time, sure, but the First Order still lands on Crait. The Resistance still suffers. Luke is ultimately the one who saves the Resistance. It's Luke who's mythologized, not Holdo.

Yes, but in Holdo's original plan she was intending to jump the ship one final time to some undisclosed location, run out of fuel, and die valiantly while the First Order tore her ship apart, unless they were smart enough to go "Hey, why did they just jump to hyperspace after driving right past this planet, I bet that someone went down there and is hiding out to either send a message or even escape in the ensuing chaos..." Her plan was half-assed at best, and the fact that DJ betrayed them probably had no bearing on why Holdo's plan failed at all, when viewed from the lens of "What would any reasonable human think happened if they were lead on a chase for dozens of hours to a point just past a planet, where suddenly the enemy flagship jumped to hyperspace?" And it wasn't like the First Order didn't have enough ships to leave some behind to investigate the planet at the same time the flagship followed her and commenced a boarding operation at the flagship's final destination.

To go back to your point about Rey running away, she is shown in the movie to slowly turn and walk away as Kylo stands there watching her leave, so it isn't like she fled in a panic, she just sadly shook her head and left the scene, disappointed that Kylo hadn't renounced the Dark side as she was sure he intended to.

Also, nothing went wrong for the fleet between the time Holdo assumed command and the First Order began firing on the cloaked transports.

As for the theme of failure, the women are shown to be strong, clear headed, and thoughtful, while the men are brash, impulsive, and ruin everything for everyone else. Leia puts an end to the mutiny with a single well placed shot despite being in a coma the entire movie, Holdo's plan was basically a success because the resistance still made good their escape, despite the glaring and terrible flaws in her stupid plan, and while she had to do the hyperspace ram instead of giving her life in a different method, the ultimate goal was still achieved.

Time and again we are shown Women succeeding while using the same stupid ass-backward tactics that the men do, but the women can't fail whereas the men fail even when they succeed (Poe).

Right, because women never fail in Last Jedi.

Except Holdo. And Rey. And Rose. And Phasma. And...nup, that's all.

Oh, wait, Leia doesn't fail. So...anti-men, something something...

Leia and Holdo's plans came off without a hitch, despite the fact that they were obviously flawed as hell, except where the men screwed them over.

I don't mind the female leads (Although not having a single reoccurring alien does tend to make the movies feel like there is no overlap), but the writing for the new trilogy is shit,

Disagree.

I mean, I have gripes, sure, but the writing is a far cry from "shit."

and the directing and writing for Rogue One were much better,

Rogue One was lackustre. It's only saved by its third act. If you look at it from a writing standpoint, it's lacklustre.

I don't disagree that the story pacing is slower in Rogue One, but the writing is still more character oriented than TFA and TLJ, which take the established characters and dismiss literally all growth over the course of the original trilogy, while the only two original characters who have any development at all are Hux (who got shit on during TLJ) and Kylo Ren, who obviously is the protagonist of the new trilogy because he is the only one with any back story.

Sorry, I used to take my Star Wars very seriously, before Disney ruined my interest with their idea to have JJ Abrams direct the first movie, put in a bunch of story threads that went nowhere,

Such as?

Bearing in mind that there's still one film that can answer them (though really, what's there left to answer about TFA apart from Maz getting Luke's lightsaber, and Snoke, where argubaly, answering stuff about him would be detrimental)

There is no explanation how the First Order has basically unlimited resources, with the ability to kidnap children and brainwash them, where the Knights of Ren came from or went, the problem is actually that now that 8 is out, all the really big mysteries that made 7 seem like it was a good base to build off of, can't be answered because Snoke is dead, as is the logical and reasonable places to get answers like Luke or even Leia, who is still alive in canon but there is no possible way to include her in the next film.

least allowing the outlines JJ Abrams wrote to be thrown out by the follow-on directors, as Rian Johnson did.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars%3A_Episode_VIII_The_Last_Jedi#Development

That's a gross oversimplification. Also ignores that TFA ignored Lucas's original Ep. 7 ideas, but Ep. 8 re-uses them.

Star Wars is long past the stage of original authoratorial intent. It's arguably been that way since the EU.

That is very true, but the whole problem is that there is no grand unified design for the final trilogy, not that it is different from Lucas' (I unapologetically enjoy the Prequels and consider them superior to the Sequels). If someone stood up and said "This is my story, I like it, and we are moving forward with it according to my vision" I would be less annoyed by the minor niggles than the way it is playing out now where everyone is just kind of running with what is on screen and letting the story come about as it is written without any end goal in mind while writing. Except now that JJ is writing the final one again, the middle one is probably going to be out of place, since it is the only one not directed by him, which sucks because it was the more enjoyable of the two.

Also, from a writer's standpoint, you can't have a story set 30 years after the first 6 movies be nothing but dead ends and mysteries that don't have answers or payoffs

Such as?

Other than Snoke.

Where the First Order came from, where they get their resources, how they could afford to build Starkiller base and their Star Destroyers, what happened to the Knights of Ren, and where did they come from, What happened to the Republic heroes and military, all the Jedi stuff...

without it feeling like a separate universe, and that is probably why the new trilogy feels so different and removed from the OT to us. It just has nothing in common with the old movies despite ripping so much off from them.

Disagree. TFA is soaked in nostalgia. TLJ distances itself from it. That's only 33% of the new trilogy being "removed" (or "mimicking"). Frankly, IMO, it should have distanced itself from the start. If you're going to give us a 30 year time jump, make it seem like a thirty year time jump.

I agree that they should have made it feel more like a thirty year time jump (I assumed it would because the TIE fighter designs and X-Wing designs felt like great transitions in the trailer, and then felt let down by the actual movie because of how much of the story was) and should have done more to distance itself from the OT. That was my whole point.

 

[Hawki]

Shields don't stop missiles but do stop plasma blasts that arc parabolicly through space.

You mean missiles that are fired from inside the ship's shield?

But the plasma shouldn't arc, that's true.

Ships can continuously acclerate through space at such a rate that they can't catch each other, but other smaller ships can out accelerate them

Which has been true pretty much since forever in the series.

and then fly through those shields or hit through those shields with missiles or blaster rounds.

And? Ships fly through shields at least twice in the PT.

Ships just randomly line up behind each other in whatever formation they feel works without a single thought to fire-arcs, overlapping shields, or fields of fire while giving chase.

I'l take your word for it, but if we're picking apart tactics in a fictional setting with fictional technology, then we're kind of entering nitpicking territory here.

Autopilot doesn't exist and can't pilot a ship in a straight line so that people can evacuate it without cluing in the First Order that a ship is empty.

Um...sure?

X-Wings can fly between turbolaser turrets but TIE fighters can't, despite the fact that TIEs are traditionally more maneuverable due to a lack of shields.

Where's it stated about the shields?

Also, you referring to the dreadnought vs. the Raddus? Those are different ship classes with different layers of fire, coupled with the fact that Poe is an ace pilot.

Missile turrets are no longer a thing that can target X-Wings, despite the fact that one targeted a TIE fighter in TFA.

Don't remember any of that, so, sure.

Shields in the Sequel Trilogy no longer work in the same way they did in the Original Trilogy or Prequel Trilogy, and are actually less effective than either.

Where were the details of shields explained in any of the films beyond 'these things protect us from lasers.'?

The nostalgia: The action, the factions, the struggle, the way things feel familiar

Apart from the "action" (and only in the third act), all of those are more turn-offs to me.

Granted, but that is really no worse than the Clone Troopers in the terms of slavery, and we are meant to root for the Republic.

Difference being clones are created for a set purpose, children like Finn aren't. Also, the Republic wasn't the aggressor in the Clone Wars, while the First Order most certainly is.

And that is your prerogative, but the Canto Bight scene is completely unnecessary,

Disagree.

overly drawn out,

Agree.

and does nothing to further the story except give Rose a chance to speak out about how evil rich people are destroying the galaxy simply by making lots of money and spending it how they want

Disagree. Canto Bight's purpose is more to serve Finn's character development, or at the most, highlight how people can thrive in a setting that's dominated by war by playing both sides. It doesn't say anything about rich people being bad in of themselves.

My favorite nickname for her, but more based on the fact that she is obviously a political appointee with all the right connections

Where is that stated?

I checked Wookiepedia, couldn't find any mention of any political connection. And the movie doesn't imply any of that.

of how there is literally only one way to become rich in the entire fucking universe,

Doubt she says "fucking," but even that aside, that says more about the state the setting is in rather than any solid real-world analogy. Also, I'm pretty sure Rose also says "I grew up in places like this." So Rose is coming from a place of emotional baggage in seeing Canto Bight.

Also, again (this is a truncated version of what I originally wrote), I have to point out that Star Wars has dealt with political alagory before, most notably in RotS. So even if one argues that works of fiction should be devoid of any thematic depth and/or allagory to real-world issues/history (I don't agree with this at all, but the how's and why's are a potential thread in of themselves Star Wars did that long before TLJ supposedly did. And I say "supposedly," because Canto Bight serves far more as a catalyst for character development for Finn, and highlighting the moral grey areas of the setting. Any anti-capitalist/anti-arms trading messages are stuff you'd needed to squint to see, whereas in RoTS, its allagory/politics are interwoven into the overall plot structure. If Star Wars fans don't like any of what I just mentioned, they're kind of late to the party.

Yes, but in Holdo's original plan she was intending to jump the ship one final time to some undisclosed location, run out of fuel, and die valiantly while the First Order tore her ship apart, unless they were smart enough to go "Hey, why did they just jump to hyperspace after driving right past this planet, I bet that someone went down there and is hiding out to either send a message or even escape in the ensuing chaos..." Her plan was half-assed at best, and the fact that DJ betrayed them probably had no bearing on why Holdo's plan failed at all, when viewed from the lens of "What would any reasonable human think happened if they were lead on a chase for dozens of hours to a point just past a planet, where suddenly the enemy flagship jumped to hyperspace?" And it wasn't like the First Order didn't have enough ships to leave some behind to investigate the planet at the same time the flagship followed her and commenced a boarding operation at the flagship's final destination.

Maybe, but I wouldn't find it hard to imagine the First Order falling for it. Even after all that, they'd eliminated every capital ship of the Resistance.

As for the theme of failure, the women are shown to be strong, clear headed, and thoughtful,

Except for Rey, Phasma, Rose, and Holdo.

while the men are brash, impulsive, and ruin everything for everyone else.

Except for Luke.

Holdo's plan was basically a success because the resistance still made good their escape, despite the glaring and terrible flaws in her stupid plan,

Holdo's failure is in lack of communication to those under her.

Leia and Holdo's plans came off without a hitch, despite the fact that they were obviously flawed as hell, except where the men screwed them over.

See above.

I don't disagree that the story pacing is slower in Rogue One, but the writing is still more character oriented than TFA and TLJ,

Rogue One is easily the least character-orientated of the Disney films. That I could barely tell you any of the characters' names, none of them undergo any kind of growth (or in the case of Jyn and Cassian, half-hearted, feeble growth), and it's focused far more on the group than the individual.

which take the established characters and dismiss literally all growth over the course of the original trilogy,

Disagree.

while the only two original characters who have any development at all are Hux (who got shit on during TLJ) and Kylo Ren, who obviously is the protagonist of the new trilogy because he is the only one with any back story.

Disagree. If we're looking at character growth both between and in the films, we can have:

*Han
*Luke
*Rey
*Finn
*Kylo Ren
*Hux (maybe)

We know all of these characters' backstories, and they all develop within the films, or in the case of Luke and Han, between films.

There is no explanation how the First Order has basically unlimited resources, with the ability to kidnap children and brainwash them,

Is this really a plot point? No-one questioned how the Rebellion got its funding in the OT.

But even that aside, we know the First Order operates in the fringes of the galaxy, and even casting aside the EU, we can tell they've been doing their thing for quite awhile, while the galaxy doesn't (or won't) acknowledge the threat they pose. That's enough time to build up forces and whatnot.

where the Knights of Ren came from or went,

The Knights of Ren? You mean that group that's mentioned once in TFA, and seen for only a few seconds on the screen?

While my personal guess is that they're former students of Luke, I'd never list the Knights as something that needs addressing. They're the equivalent of the Imperial Senate in A New Hope - something that's mentioned, but not dwelt on.

But even then, again, there's still one film left to feature them.

Where the First Order came from,

Even casting aside the EU, it's pretty obvious (if not outright stated) that the First Order are Empire remnants, or at least, people who follow the ideals of the Empire.

where they get their resources, how they could afford to build Starkiller base and their Star Destroyers, what happened to the Knights of Ren,

See earlier responses.

What happened to the Republic heroes and military,

all the Jedi stuff...[/quote]

Republic heroes? Did I miss something?

As for the Republic military, we can infer that a lot of it was stationed in the Hosnian system, and the Republic was already in the process of disarming (don't think this is stated in the film, mind you). We can also infer that there's still remnants, but can't/won't oppose the First Order. Now, I think it's quite conspicuous that the First Order can apparently immediately bounce back after the destruction of Starkiller Base, while the Republic is completely absent from TLJ, but given that the film leaves us with the notion that Luke's sacrifice will inspire people to fight against the First Order, I can guess the Republic remnants will be present in some form in Episode IX.

As for "Jedi stuff," what's missing? Luke established an academy, Kylo Ren destroys the temple, killing the students and taking a few with him. Afterwards, Luke goes into seclusion. There's no real gap here.

 

[Saelune]

Here is a video that summarizes many of my issues with the new Star Wars films without devolving into a sexist tirade of BS.




Yes, for those aware of the channel, often his videos are more for humor sake, but this was a lot more legit criticism than just jokes.


Look, I actually think the new Star Wars are pretty terrible, but the diversity is actually the one good thing about them. Unfortunately, the sexists and racists are making it harder for real criticism to apply. I blame no one but the bigots here...and J.J. Abrams.

Yes, I saw that. It's a good video.

Thing is? It makes pretty much the exact same points as most of these supposed "sexists and racists", including those I've linked to in this very thread.

Really, if anyone can rise up to Becker's challenge and find him a video with wide support saying, to put it in Pablo "Brand Communications Manager" Hidalgo's so very artful words, that "Our continued and debilitating obsession with our childhood passions was caveman masculine until the dames ruined it"... I would very much like to watch him eat that picture on live stream.

See the thing is, the sexists blame the diversity. They blame women and black people being prominent as the cause.


Bigots can correctly point out that say, the economy is bad, but once they start blaming blacks and Jews, it does not validate them.

A bunch of people made a cut of one of the films without ANY female characters in it. Those people are sexist, no question.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Oh good lord, it's one of those threads already.

Anyway, on "Boycotts": if you aren't interested in seeing Solo because the movie doesn't look good for whatever reason, you aren't boycotting.

If you aren't going to see Solo because you want to punish somebody or something, you're boycotting.

If you want to punish somebody Disney affiliated, but weren't going to see Solo anyway, you aren't boycotting.

Like, I cannot boycott Chik-Fil-A. The closest one is 150 miles away and I'm not driving two-and-a-half hours for fast food of any kind.

 

[Tanis]

I liked The Last Jedi. I liked Rouge One. I liked The Force Awakens.

Boycotting Solo because 'OMG LIBERALS N' WOMAN' is really fucking stupid.

But, what else is an INCEL going to do?

 

[Trunkage]

F

EDIT: Because I just stumbled upon this... have a video. It does a pretty good job of explaining what has been going on with Star Wars and disgruntled fans, I thought.

Got around to watching this. My first comment is: his argument doesn't make sense in this context. A lot of people liked TLJ. So its impossible that, in this analogy, a restaurant could end up this bad. It would have been better if he was comparing dishes. Or they went vegetarian. He automatically assume TLJ is terrible for everyone and complains when "no one" else can see it. No one else cant see it because they do see it as good (or at least adequate.)

I've seen this guy before. I watched his Solo boycott episode. He, amongst a few others, is the reason I wrote this topic. If I remember correctly, he was complaining how Keanelly was putting too much SJW into Star Wars (paraphrasing obviously). Now, if you want to boycott - awesome. I didn't watch Hacksaw Ridge because I think Gibson is a twat. So I understand. But his goal is to send a message to Disney to change and I don't think there are enough people of his mindset to change the situation.

 

[Kyrian007]

Oh good lord, it's one of those threads already.

Anyway, on "Boycotts": if you aren't interested in seeing Solo because the movie doesn't look good for whatever reason, you aren't boycotting.

If you aren't going to see Solo because you want to punish somebody or something, you're boycotting.

If you want to punish somebody Disney affiliated, but weren't going to see Solo anyway, you aren't boycotting.

Like, I cannot boycott Chik-Fil-A. The closest one is 150 miles away and I'm not driving two-and-a-half hours for fast food of any kind.

So I'm not boycotting Chik-Fil-A? See I thought I was and just was just enjoying the side benefit of not having to eat disgustingly awful chicken.

 

[Hawki]

I didn't watch Hacksaw Ridge because I think Gibson is a twat.

Speaking completely honestly, I think Hacksaw Ridge is an excellent movie.

Just FYI and all that.

 

[Ogoid]

See the thing is, the sexists blame the diversity. They blame women and black people being prominent as the cause.


Bigots can correctly point out that say, the economy is bad, but once they start blaming blacks and Jews, it does not validate them.

A bunch of people made a cut of one of the films without ANY female characters in it. Those people are sexist, no question.

In fairness, I recall reading that that fan cut did include female characters, only not the ones the person (really, no reason to assume there was more than one) who made it disliked... which is not to defend it or say it was anything but a monumentally stupid thing to waste one's time on, mind you.

But I think the real question about it should rather be, why did we even hear about it in the first place?

I mean, think about it. Exactly what's supposed to be so actually newsworthy about a crappy fan edit of a film by some random internet crank, that several professional media outlets would give it the time of day?

 

[Natemans]

I'm hearing bits and pieces trickle in about Solo. An acquaintance has seen it, says it's not too bad. Only one of the Youtube people I follow has a review up, and his opinion was 'eh, it's alright'. Sounds like Danny Glover kills it as Lando.

That's probably the best seal of approval for me lol

 

[Ogoid]

For the same reason gamergate was paid attention to

Angry entitled fanboys make us all feel better about our lives because we aren't them

...But that toxicity, though, amirite?

 

[Saelune]

See the thing is, the sexists blame the diversity. They blame women and black people being prominent as the cause.


Bigots can correctly point out that say, the economy is bad, but once they start blaming blacks and Jews, it does not validate them.

A bunch of people made a cut of one of the films without ANY female characters in it. Those people are sexist, no question.

In fairness, I recall reading that that fan cut did include female characters, only not the ones the person (really, no reason to assume there was more than one) who made it disliked... which is not to defend it or say it was anything but a monumentally stupid thing to waste one's time on, mind you.

But I think the real question about it should rather be, why did we even hear about it in the first place?

I mean, think about it. Exactly what's supposed to be so actually newsworthy about a crappy fan edit of a film by some random internet crank, that several professional media outlets would give it the time of day?

In fairness of what? There is no in fairness here. The people who made that are sexist pieces of shit...in fairness.


In fairness why do we need to defend the sexists who are unjustified in their sexism?

 

[Ogoid]

Intolerance paradox.

In order to create a tolerant world, people must be intolerant to intolerance

Yes, it's done wonders for conversations on gaming and pop culture in general for the last couple of years, hasn't it?

In fairness of what?

Of the actual facts of the matter at hand; I'm sure we can agree that being as objective as possible about them is a good thing.

Otherwise, I don't believe I have "defended" anyone.