A response to some arguments in anita sarkeesians interview.

[Paradoxrifts]

You seem to think one demographic is entitled to have the run of a product, which has been paid for by the most part by an entirely different demographic. Now that's a sense of unwarranted entitlement!

Please tell me where exactly I said that. I would love to hear this.

Whether or not you have ever said it before this point is not nearly half as relevant as whether you agree with what I just said in principle, or whether you wish to dispute it on some basis.

So? If a product has a recognisable demographical core of consumers, should not the product cater to them first and foremost?

I would also love to hear this.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Social Darwinism, I choose you!

Ah, that made me laugh.

Why do Social Darwinism and Pokemon make such a great pair?

 

[Paradoxrifts]

You seem to think one demographic is entitled to have the run of a product, which has been paid for by the most part by an entirely different demographic. Now that's a sense of unwarranted entitlement!

You seem to think one demographic is entitled to have the run of a product, which has been paid for by the most part by an entirely different demographic. Now that's a sense of unwarranted entitlement!

Please tell me where exactly I said that. I would love to hear this.

Whether or not you have ever said it before this point is not nearly half as relevant as whether you agree with what I just said in principle, or whether you wish to dispute it on some basis.

So? If a product has a recognisable demographical core of consumers, should not the product cater to them first and foremost?

I would also love to hear this.

So no, I didn't say it. You were just making shit up. Again. Thank you, and it's been a pleasure doing business with you.

So you agree with my assertion?

As a straight, white male in his late 20's, I too am part of this core demographic. And I would like a little more variety. I'd like to see more female characters like Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. I would like a cessation to the endless cavalcade of modern warfare shooters. In fact, I mostly buy indie titles these days not just because they're cheaper, but it's the only place I can go to get variety.

Was that a yes or no? Because that didn't answer my question in the slightest.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Was that a yes or no? Because that didn't answer my question in the slightest.

True. I didn't.

Your apparent unwillingness to stand behind and defend your own opinions, could be interpreted by some as cowardice, could it not?

It seems that you have no problem laying into the opinions of others, and I don't think that there is a thread on this subject that hasn't got at least a few pages of your diatribe boosting the page count, and yet when you are brought to bay and asked a simple and honest question you seem unwilling or unable to give a simple and honest response.

I have drawn the noose of your own opinion tight and snug around your neck, I can't exactly blame you if you refuse to jump.

 

[WolfCross]

For those of us who can sit down in front of their gaming console, play a game such as Dead or Alive, enjoy a screenfull of computer graphically-enhanced breasts, turn it off, and still go out into their lives and enjoy healthy and functional relationships with the respective females therein, be they friends, colleagues or partners, my heart goes out to you. We'll get through dis.

 

[darlarosa]

The author of the article is very compelling. I think he brings up important points about Anita(can't spell her last name for crap so she's just Anita), and valid arguments on the other side.

At the same time some of his own arguments can be examined. In relation to the Rayman portion of the article,he made it a point to bring up the mythological aspects of Nymphs to explain their appearence, as well as the Tex Avery like art design. A valid arguement, but it seems like then the question is out of all the zany things in Rayman they chose to keep that aspect in how they designed body types and chose the costumes for the characters. They are relatively harmless depictions, and they are depicted as being powerful(through virtue of creating Rayman). Yet the question arises of why they chose to emphasize their sexuality in the design, specifically their breasts. Tex Avery's women were built and hourglass shaped, but in comparison these nymphs are quite...er...over endowed.

To the Gravity Rush example, Anita's point seemed to be more on games being impractical when it comes to costume choices. Thats pretty reasonable, considering that 1)high heels really uncomfortable and really unhealthy in continuous use 2) Just because she enjoys wearing something does not mean it makes sense, a woman may enjoy wearing a full length gown but I doubt she would wear it to play baseball. I haven't gotten a chance to play so maybe this character is the sort who throws caution to the wind and wear gowns to baseball games, it would make for an interesting personality trait.

Assassin's Creed is pretty awesome for the fact that you can recruit male and female assassins. I think I understand Anita's viewpoint...but I think Chris is pretty on point. Historically not too many women would be able to 1)escape family expectations 2) Oppose something so profoundly powerful 3) go into a life of danger and death. Not many men would be able to do that for that matter. I could understand maybe wanting a kind of badass type, for some reason I'm imagining Catherine Zeta Jones in Zorro. A woman who does not necessarily leave her station, but is a force in her own right,perhaps friend or perhaps foe. Characters like that are always interesting, but for this game they are not necessary.


Another thing is his naming characters, at times it feels like he's using that as part of the counter argument, which is...odd to me.


I wonder if this is the difference between looking at the female character half of the discussion and looking at the character who is a female half of the discussion. Both of which are perfectly valid. Both should be examined.


Anita just...I dunno she picks shitty examples for things that are not well thought out most of the time and not well explained. I honestly think she is the sort of person who needs to read off a prompt and needs people getting her to meaty examples. Catwoman and Harley in Arkham City, the presenting of females as simply window dressing or motivation for the protagonist, the lack of diversity of female characters, or she could have even broken the conversation down to character design choice

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Let me make this clear. You argue that a handful of statistics you found are proof enough to say that women are a small enough minority in the gaming market that their opinion doesn't matter and that the publishers and developers should remain beholden to you, a (presumably) straight, white male.

You get an erection just once, while watching the Old Spice Guy talking about diamonds and suddenly the whole internet knows about it.

What was I talking about?

Let me make this clear.

I can make it even clearer. Watch.

If there ever was a developer of triple-A gaming title that has gone out of its way to include female gamers as part of their core demographic then that company is Bioware. So if the veritable poster child of progressive Triple-A development cannot tap into that 42% that the ESA insists on existing much like a Canadian girlfriend [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GirlfriendInCanada], why on earth should development companies take the demands of feminists like Anita seriously?

I really wish you'd stop rehashing and subtly twisting my language. If you keep it up, I will keep clarifying you. It's a free service, no charge.

You argue that a handful of statistics you found are proof enough to say that women are a small enough minority in the gaming market that their opinion doesn't matter.

If those women happen to be feminists, and if those feminists are of the stripe that are daft enough to argue that developers within genres that have unmarketably low levels of female participation should change their product in order to woo a non-existent audience, then yeah, I would say their opinion doesn't matter.

However!

Bioware, and to a lesser extent Bethesda, both seem to be acting, at least in my not so humble opinion, that whatever percentage of their paying customers are women is a percentage worth making room at the table for. The bean counters over at their marketing divisions noticed that women, a demographically significant number of women, were buying their product and took steps to cultivate that portion of their market. With certain darkhorse exceptions, the development companies making 'Western RPGs' are taking their female audience quite seriously, or at least they have been in the last 5-6 years.

So while whatever the rate of female participation in that section of the industry is, clearly it is high enough that they take it into account.

1. It ignores the question, "Could they be making more money by appealing to their fringe demographics?" After all, it worked for Hasbro.
2. Your data is not enough and lacks a companion qualitative research. I know better than you do that you can make numbers mean whatever you want them to. They need context.
3. If you think they're listening to you right now, you're sadly mistaken. Much like yourself, they are looking at numbers bereft of any context. They're not listening to their customers, just the accounting department telling them what sold and what didn't. The "why" isn't really a consideration. If they want to know, they'll probably just speculate an answer.

1. Hasbro is a big company. You will have to be much more specific.
2. You wouldn't happen to be involved in the Social Sciences would you?
3. No, seriously. That's coming across as quite bitter. Professional career league jealousy. But hey, nowadays game companies are using various DRM methods, which include Steam, XBox Live & the PSN Network to harvest all sorts of data from their players. Surely they can't hire economists to sort through it all.

Now that I've answered your question, answer mine: Where did you get your opinions on feminism from because it obviously wasn't from any real research?

What exactly would you like me to say? Like delicious little button mushrooms, they just sprang up organically when exposed to copious amounts of manure?

On one of these threads a feminist defended the wider feminist movement from attack because someone brought up some presumably radical feminist strain of thought with the line, "Feminism is not a monolith." And I think that's true to an extent, but from my perspective Feminism more closely resembles a mythical hydra. In that even if you manage to appease one head that won't stop the rest of them biting you on your ass.

 

[DioWallachia]

Yeah, I think it's safe to expect several dozen deconstructions like that after each of her videos, and a few really in-depth ones by fans she fazes.

All completely free of course.

I suppose that in a "non-trollish" way, we ALL get benefits from seeing someone suck harder than jard in its job, so at least a bunch of people start to make Red Letter Media Style videos with analyzis worth of reading/seeing

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Two things. First, you don't even know what a feminist is. You've made that abundantly clear in your rhetoric. Do not try to argue this with me. You will lose.

So now it is my fault for not knowing how you've personally chosen to define 'who is' and 'who isn't' a feminist? Feminism is not a monolith, remember? Shit like that, the overall lack of a strong level of consensus amongst the people who are out preaching your philosophy, it cuts both ways.

Ponies, man! Where have you been the last two years? Do you realize just how much Hasbro has been catering to the brony demographic?

What does the pony fanciers have to do with this? Wait. Don't answer that. Like Bloody Mary once you start mentioning them, they start cropping up.

Let me answer that with another question: Why do you ask?

Seriously? That's what you're going with? I'm just jealous?

You start a thread extolling the virtues of the Social Sciences and we'll see what response you get from people, I will wait here. Where it is safe.

It is a rare enough find on the wide open internet to have someone who will not only stick up for the work they do, but openly declare it to be necessary to the successful interpretation of collected data like the ME2 figures.

So in a moment of intuition I thought that you might just work in that field. And I also figured that if you did then you might have a strong opinion when it comes to game companies hiring on academics outside your field to work with data you feel would be better handled by your own.

Am I wrong? Are you going to drag out a response yet again? Do you always avoid every binary response with another question?

In other words, you did not arrive at this opinion through any research or critical thinking. You just assembled a few stereotypes in your head and called it a day. I was right.

We're done here.

Perhaps we are.

I took the arguments on one by one as they were presented to me with the tools I had at hand. I have repeatedly offered you the floor to both present and defend your opinion and offer constructive dialogue but again you resort to speaking for the people you don't agree with in order to belittle them.

It is not a habit that will help you influence the way people think.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

They're not a core demographic. By your logic, Hasbro shouldn't have put them on the table. But they took a chance on it and are now making a lot of money off of this demographic. It was a smart business decision.

A smart decision? We will see how that works out for them over the long term now that the brand has been irrecoverably tainted by the existence of pony pornography. Certainly one would assume that they're currently making money hand over fist, or indeed hoof over hoof from their adult fringe audience. Insert not all, indeed most people who like the show don't whack off to cartoon horse porn disclaimer here.

But lets not pretend that sneaking in something that will appeal to an adult audience in children's entertainment is a brand new invention. Adult humour typically gets woven into children's entertainment on a level that will sail over the heads of children. Even the 'Swords & Sandals' films of Italian cinema featured burly musclemen. Actors who didn't resemble Kratos from GoW so much as they resembled Fabio.

I studied the social sciences in college, though I'm not a professional in the field. I'm actually an entrepreneur in the arts and entertainment and trying to scrape together the cash to start my own independent multimedia studio.

An independent multimedia studio. That's not a very helpful description. That could mean anything. Alright, when you're not working to pay bills and put food in your stomach, what do you hope to achieve professionally? How would your philosophical beliefs directly inform your creative output in such circumstances?

I understand why the industry does what it does. But I believe they're operating on faulty logic and are too slow to adapt to a changing market. Today, conventional wisdom is neither.

That's nice and all, but that's a viewpoint you came up with unburdened by the responsibilities of providing a reliable return on the investments of others. Now assuming you're right, and that the market is changing in terms of demographics outside getting one year slightly older and fatter than the last, then ultimately the market's invisible hand will sort all those details out. Although if that is the case then it will be using the invisible axe to make adjustments and trim waste.

So let's make this simple and go right back to square one. Have you read any books on feminist theory?

I'm a libertarian in the American understanding of the word. And I am under the impression that libertarianism's focus on individual liberties is at direct odds with feminism's focus on better outcomes for a demographical collective. So apart from some light reading in order to better familiarise myself with the usage of jargon, I have not undertaken serious study in the topic.

Like I said earlier, whatever interactions with the feminism movement I have had have contributed the bulk of my understanding of what Feminism wants from geek culture. My response to these assertions remains the same.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. Buy something else instead, something that isn't quite so objectionable. So long as what you are buying is drawing from the same pool of disposable income as what you didn't buy, the market forces will sort it out.

In the wider sense I don't really care about feminism one way or the other. My choice of lifestyle means I won't have to deal with the majority of problems other men seem to have with it.