A response to some arguments in anita sarkeesians interview.

[Ryotknife]

You're over-shooting the point I'm trying to make. See above. If people have arguments against Sarkeesian, then I ask that they have the decency to step up their game a bit.

her videos will (probably) not help the situation. It will agitate the A-hats on one end, salivate the overzealous crusaders on the other end, and piss off the moderates in the middle. Every since her intentions appeared on kickstarter, this whole subject has gone steadily BACKWARDS at what i can only call a running pace.

talking or even analyzing will not help. More women in the industry will help. Better censor control/punishment for peoples comments will help. Or even just better writers will help. Not to mention the jury is still out about if this thing has turned into a scam.

 

[targren]

If you have arguments about her assessment of the lore, then please make them. I'm not here to stop you. What I'm addressing is the assumption some people have that they can counter arguments against the advertising by explaining the lore to us. And that doesn't work because the advertising does not expect us to know the lore.

I already did, but to sum it up, she got the characterization wrong, she got the plot wrong, and the whole bit about "single mother" was laughable. It shows that she's not interested in actually doing research and making informed, accurate arguments, she's just another straw feminist who enjoys making noise and being inflammatory. She has no credibility and can't be trusted, and as such, arguments 'sourcing' hers are weakened, not strengthened.

 

[targren]

According to material published by the Entertainment Software Association, in 2011 the percentage of gamers who were female came in at 42%. More or less within spitting distance of demographic parity with the male majority. So why is it then when Bioware published a collection of anonymous player data gleaned from playthroughs of Mass Effect 2, a game only released in 2010, that only 18% of playthroughs featured a female gendered Shepard?

Pretty sure the ESA numbers included web-games and facebook games and such. The percentage of women buying AA and AAA games for themselves is likely much, much lower than 42%, and the claims of half of call gamers being women is misleading at best.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Tranquilizing over killing - no other enemy in the game has a reward for tranks. What's the deal there? I don't know. Could be story-telling break issue, could be sexist. I'm going to go with sexist, because there's never real hesitation (or the option not to kill generally) male characters and bosses.

Actually, Metal Gear Solid Games have had rewards for tranquilizing bosses instead of killing them for a while. I don't even see how that would be sexist if the beasts were the first ones to have it happen.

I stand corrected - no other bosses in that game though, that I know of anyway, geez now I'm uncertain lol - and have only watched others play previous games and taken their word for some content I posted about (I will pass on the correction to them, thanks). I didn't get into the series until this title and it was hard for me to go backward on the control schemes (which is neither here nor there, just supplemental information).

Again though, wasn't about the specifics of the example - was just giving an example to demonstrate the level of complexity and dissection required to even begin to untangle portrayal of character (either male or female) in games and how many elements come into play that has less to do with gender studies than people from outside the culture may realize.

And since the conversation has tended this way: I'm not saying she isn't a game player (I have no idea if she is and I'm a tad too tired of discussing her to do the legwork to find out). If she isn't, the topic is going to be much more difficult for her to tackle. Even if she is though, the presentation is going to be seen by those who aren't, so that's still a lot of additional explanation that needs to be given to provide an accurate picture to them, and in her videos I have seen to date that isn't as deep as I think it is going to need to be. Obviously, she's much better funded for these, so it would be feasible for her to provide a lot more detailed content - I just hope she does. Again, my main concern expressed in my original post in this thread is that if this is to happen it happens in a way that can be maximally productive for the community, the industry, and the outsider understanding of games in general. I want it to have value. I don't know enough about this person to be confident that will be the case is all.

Fair enough, lol. To be frank, Metal Gear Solid is kind of hypersexualized in general. Snake, Raiden and Vamp are probably sexualized way more than the Beasts, if only because they get more screen time. Hell, Merril's butt got specific attention in MGS1 and Otacon has a fangroup of women dedicated to him.

 

[targren]

But the fact is that we're actually having this conversation.

That's the problem. The context of the conversation is grounded in trash. If it were unrelated to Sarkeesian's hackjob, it might (though I doubt it) accomplish some good. As it is, it only gives her validation she doesn't deserve, and pins the discussion in a place where, quite literally, no good can be accomplished.

 

[Jdb]

Good news, everyone. A possible solution has been found for future explorations into sexism and misogyny in video games, and maybe anything else having to do with behavior and video games: A systems analysis.

Starts at 4:09.


"Such an analysis would allow for inferences to be drawn from the game play in regards to gender hostility based on comparisons of typically masculine and feminine strategies."

By examining game play and how it interacts with the user, imbalances between masculine and feminine behavior can be determined based on existing facts.

 

[targren]

There was a time not too long ago when discussing the idea of sexism in video games would have been squashed by a bunch of sweaty neckbeards insisting that it's not an issue we need to concern ourselves with. But in the aftermath of the Kickstart debacle, we have a ton of threads popping up on the subject, and though a lot of them descend eventually into obnoxious fuckery, there are some good ones. People are talking about the issue itself moreso than Sarkeesian herself. So hey, progress!

Can't say that I agree with you, there, when I take into account that I have, along with just about anyone else who has the audacity to call "bullshit!" when there's bullshit about, get handwaved with the martyr's cries of "sexist", "misogynist", etc... I doubt there's enough intellectual honesty on either side to accomplish a bloody thing.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Fair enough, lol. To be frank, Metal Gear Solid is kind of hypersexualized in general. Snake, Raiden and Vamp are probably sexualized way more than the Beasts, if only because they get more screen time. Hell, Merril's butt got specific attention in MGS1 and Otacon has a fangroup of women dedicated to him.

Yeah... the "click L1" (on PS3) to look up Dr. whats-her-name's skirt before she can cross her legs while sitting on the bed was kinda special. Meh, lots of sex everywhere though - at a later point same chick grabs Vamp's crotch knife in a clearly "I really mean I'm grabbing his penis, because we've got it like that" way.

And since the conversation has tended this way: I'm not saying she isn't a game player (I have no idea if she is and I'm a tad too tired of discussing her to do the legwork to find out). If she isn't, the topic is going to be much more difficult for her to tackle. Even if she is though, the presentation is going to be seen by those who aren't, so that's still a lot of additional explanation that needs to be given to provide an accurate picture to them, and in her videos I have seen to date that isn't as deep as I think it is going to need to be.

Call me cynical, but I've been wondering if that isn't her plan. To target the videos at non-gamers, I mean. She's already made it perfectly clear that she's not concerned with accuracy or facts, and those are the sort of things that gamers leap on. So what if she's not incompetent, but is trying to target a non-gaming audience, just like those "Million Mom" idiots and and endless line before them, to rabble rouse. Because she's obviously not trying to actually improve anything with empty rhetoric, buzzwords, inaccuracies, and outright lies.

I wouldn't go quite that far with it. She's clearly got a bias towards what she's looking to see - and that is compounded by a confirmation bias we all as human beings experience (short explanation: what we're specifically looking for, we're going to find), but I don't think she has a specific anti-game agenda going. Could people with an anti-gaming agenda use her stuff later for their own ends? Sure. And so will people who want to get changes made use it to support their arguments that there are areas in which some change would be welcome. A documentary isn't supposed to fix a problem or push a particular agenda beyond recognition of an issue / raising awareness.

I think this project is harder than it sounds like, and maybe more than she (or any one person) can handle on their own because it's just so big, sprawling, complex, and (obviously) sensitive. It would, in my opinion, take a team of insider industry people, pillars of the gaming community (throwing in a few familiar faces doesn't hurt), outsider perspective from the academic fields relating to what is being discussed - narrative structure, gender issues, psychology, etc. - and I mean at a doctorate level, and maybe some professional researchers with serious funding to honestly get the most out of diving into this murky pool.

That doesn't mean one person (or several one persons, or a few teams, or whatever) can't get the ball rolling and drum up some interest in looking that direction. Problem is, that can do more harm than good if it isn't executed correctly, and that's my fear.

Bah!!! I always mess up the quoting if I do more than one post. /sigh Personal inadequacy rears its ugly head. Fixed... I think

 

[Cheesepower5]

I doubt there's enough intellectual honesty on either side to accomplish a bloody thing.

I'm not so pessimistic. I've seen some good discussion come out of this, so I will remain optimistic.

I personally think the best solution posited so far is simply to encourage more women to get into game development. And that's sort of relying on other people, for the most part.

What other ideas that came up do you like?

 

[targren]

I personally think the best solution posited so far is simply to encourage more women to get into game development. And that's sort of relying on other people, for the most part.

That's what I think, too. I posted elsewhere that a better use of the kickstarter would have been to actually get a game made, rather than just making screechy webvideos to try to "slut-shame" the development houses into listening to them (which they won't).

 

[runic knight]

I doubt there's enough intellectual honesty on either side to accomplish a bloody thing.

I'm not so pessimistic. I've seen some good discussion come out of this, so I will remain optimistic.

I personally think the best solution posited so far is simply to encourage more women to get into game development. And that's sort of relying on other people, for the most part.

What other ideas that came up do you like?

Gonna post my answer, if the question was meant as an in general question instead of just to the doc there.

I'd say, encourage better stories and story-writing. If a lot of complaint is about the lack of complexity of female characters, encouraging stories with depth and stories explore more then just the main character makes better characters and by extension better female characters when they are used.

I don't think we will ever lose the ideal form for characters, male or female, but having deeper storylines, motivations and a better understanding of narrative would result in deeper and more realistic personalities and portrayals of characters, male and female alike.


captcha -topsy -turvy well, gonna have that disney tune in my head the rest of the night...lovely.

 

[Cheesepower5]

I doubt there's enough intellectual honesty on either side to accomplish a bloody thing.

I'm not so pessimistic. I've seen some good discussion come out of this, so I will remain optimistic.

I personally think the best solution posited so far is simply to encourage more women to get into game development. And that's sort of relying on other people, for the most part.

What other ideas that came up do you like?

Gonna post my answer, if the question was meant as an in general question instead of just to the doc there.

I'd say, encourage better stories and story-writing. If a lot of complaint is about the lack of complexity of female characters, encouraging stories with depth and stories explore more then just the main character makes better characters and by extension better female characters when they are used.

I don't think we will ever lose the ideal form for characters, male or female, but having deeper storylines, motivations and a better understanding of narrative would result in deeper and more realistic personalities and portrayals of characters, male and female alike.


captcha -topsy -turvy well, gonna have that disney tune in my head the rest of the night...lovely.

This is a reasonable complaint as well. More games would do well to focus on story or character.

And yeah, it's a free forum. Anyone can answer.

 

[targren]

I'd say, encourage better stories and story-writing. If a lot of complaint is about the lack of complexity of female characters, encouraging stories with depth and stories explore more then just the main character makes better characters and by extension better female characters when they are used.

Hell, that's something we desperately need regardless. Even the stories that are considered the pinnacles of video game storytelling (not mentioning specific names. Flame off) are hackneyed and cliche, at best.

 

[targren]

That's the thing. Women are going to be discouraged from getting into the industry unless we start talking about things like this. I don't believe that the majority of employers consciously discriminate against women. But the boys' club atmosphere tends to take hold on an unconscious level.

So the first step is to start talking about what gaming as a medium is doing wrong and what we would like to see done differently and how. If we keep the discourse going, new blood will be rotated in to change things.

That's where the whole thing falls apart, as I see it. For starters, it's not just the games industry that has a dearth of women. It's the entire software development industry. And since spreadsheet software, databases, and EMR systems don't have a huge problem with "sexist" characters, that doesn't really hold up as a reason they're staying away.

Hell, they're probably smart for doing it. What with outsourcing, "contracting", and the like in the industry as a whole, and especially with the low pay and harsh conditions of game development specifically, you need to have a real passion both for gaming AND for development if you're going to justify going in that direction instead of something more profitable and less prone to burnout.

Anecdotally, I've not met too many women passionate about either, so I can only imagine the combination has to be pretty rare.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

"There's too much heterosexuality in video games and too few good examples of gay relationships. Give me one hundred thousand dollars and I'll make a Youtube video about it."

That's my Kickstarter pitch. Who's in with me?