Abortion Doctor found guilty of murder following late-term abortions

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

I am against abortion after the first trimester. I want that out of the way before saying that the argument "if a woman wants an abortion we should provide it because she will get one anyway" is incredibly flawed. It is like saying if a rapist wants to rape someone they will do it anyway so we should make it safe an legal.

So you would oppose safely-rapeable sexbots the way we have safely-killable projections in computer games? If we could make rape somehow victimless, (and there are ways we already can and do) then there's no reason we should. I suspect that those who had the insight to choose to exercise their tendencies in a safe, victimless manner would do so. (Heck, with the availability of pornography via the internet, sex crime, including rape has already declined per capita).

As I age and find myself with a daughter of my own the entire abortion discussion really makes me physically ill. Again, I am ok with keeping 1st term abortions legal but see no reason that it should be legal beyond that point. I haven't always felt this way but I am to the point where I do not think I could be friends with an abortion doctor.

Perhaps you might want to read up on the circumstances that are typical of late-term abortions [http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/Stories/Stories.aspx]before you judge the people who perform them, or the people who receive them. It's stereotypical how unempathetic the Pro-Life sector is, even those who get abortions themselves (about a third of all abortions in the US according to Guttmacher) and then happily claim that only their own abortion was moral and justifiable.

238U

 

[CountryMike]

Shit, that's straight murder! Fucking bastard.
Do people not know how to use a condom?

condoms aren't 100% safe. You can still get pregnant using a condom. Little chance, but possible

 

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

You know, even if a lot of people are poor and can't afford contraceptives, there is always the surefire way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy - KEEP YOUR FUCKING PANTS ON!
JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HAVE SEX DOESN"T MEAN THAT YOU SHOULD!

Regardless of what MTV wants you to think sex is an ADULT RESPONSIBILITY not a hip way to pass the time, and certainly not a game. If you aren't prepared for the consequences, DON'T DO IT.

You know, all the people who could control their reproductive drive through sheer force of will died out before we assembled our first spear. Statistics show that humans get stupid when it comes to sexual encounters (even sans alcohol), no matter how icky or somehow wrong you guys might personally think it is. (Sexually active people statistically are healthier and live longer than those of you who aren't, so maybe it's your own sensibilities that are askew.) And in those regions in which abstinence is emphasized (the keep-your-legs-together approach) have (by magnitudes) worse unwanted-pregnancy and abortion rates than those areas that push for public sex education and responsible sexual activity. And while there are some excellent methods of birth control, none are perfect, and many are outlawed in the US because the religious right can't stand the idea of people having frivolous non-reproductive sex, and their lobbyists pressure the FDA to halt certification of countless contraceptives that are legal in Europe.

So this is a situation that guys like you helped create.

Keep in mind the pro-life community pushes for no support for single mothers. No support for public pre-natal care. No support for children, one of the most impoverished demographics in the US. An unwanted child lowers a single mother's chances of rising out of poverty to scant levels, and there is no advocacy by the pro-lifers to improve this. They put no effort into the development of either birth control or ectogenic incubation. They have no interest in improving our abysmal foster-care system or our byzantine adoption services. One might infer from such a narrow position they're less interested in protecting unborn life and more interested in punishing the mother for being a slut. In fact, I've heard more than once women who advocate birth control or abortion access of being called exactly that, or of encouraging promiscuity.

Eskimo women will leave an firstborn daughter out in the snow as a necessity of survival. Other cultures will kill baby daughters because women are regarded as obligations (say, if another dowry would impoverish the family) Outside the industrialized world, infanticide based on gender selection is rampant. I'm not saying that's the way it should be (quite the opposite). That's the way it is, unless we, like (say) Germany institute a shitload of state-supported programs to actually help single mothers raise children. Germany, as an example, has abortion access on demand, and the lowest rate of abortion in the world (including places where abortion is unlawful) because they treat single mothers and children like something better than rats.

Now granted, Gosnell's clinic is a last resort for women. Mothers don't typically wait until late-term if they're disinterested in having children, rather require a late term abortion if there is a complication that is detected late. Of those infants that Gosnell murdered with scissors, it hasn't been confirmed by anyone that any of them were healthy, or viable. We don't know the circumstances, and sometimes neonates are so badly deformed that they are better off stillborn (e.g. If a child is going to live his entire life of six years on life support and excruciating pain, is that a life you want to preserve? Something to ponder). Here in the US, we have very few doctors who perform late term abortions, especially now after Dr. George Tiller was gunned down in his church by a lone assassin, so we've set the stage for doctors like Gosnell to set up shop in back-alley clinics.

For the rest of women who detect pregnancy early, those who don't have access to a medical abortion will be referred by Google to the dozens of herbal emmenagogues that are available nationwide (many of which are ubiquitous as spices, teas and so on.) So we get to see women kill themselves with a pennyroyal overdose, or getting sick on too much mugwort or citric acid. The abortions are not going to stop because we criminalize the safe procedures. They're only going to become unsafe.

Get a fucking clue, guys.

238U

 

[jetriot]

So you would oppose safely-rapeable sexbots the way we have safely-killable projections in computer games? If we could make rape somehow victimless, (and there are ways we already can and do) then there's no reason we should. I suspect that those who had the insight to choose to exercise their tendencies in a safe, victimless manner would do so. (Heck, with the availability of pornography via the internet, sex crime, including rape has already declined per capita).

Perhaps you might want to read up on the circumstances that are typical of late-term abortions [http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/Stories/Stories.aspx]before you judge the people who perform them, or the people who receive them. It's stereotypical how unempathetic the Pro-Life sector is, even those who get abortions themselves (about a third of all abortions in the US according to Guttmacher) and then happily claim that only their own abortion was moral and justifiable.

238U

Your analogy doesn't really fit because(for a pro-lifer) abortion isn't a victimless crime. I have no problem with video games or pornography. So my analogy still stands.

The hypocrisy of some on the pro-life side is not an argument for abortion, it is simply stating they are hypocrites. The reasons people get late term abortions(typically illegally) are also meaningless. If we are drawing a line in the sand and saying, hey the baby feels pain at this point, is aware of its existence and IS alive than the reasons for killing it can only be to save another life. There is no other reason. Many people have become far too flippant and casual with what was supposed to be 'safe but rare'.

I understand that everyone perceives life differently and the argument is entirely subjective and based upon when that life actually begins. I am not a religious man or what one stereotypes a pro-lifer to be. However, I(and most people) believe that a line must be drawn that says killing a baby after this point is murder. I personally believe that point to be after the first trimester and would have no problem prosecuting doctors and patients that have late term abortions for murder.

Because this debate relies entirely upon when life begins and it is entirely subjective, the debate can never be won with logic, science or better arguments. It is simply a perpetual argument. That said if I were to wrong I would rather be wrong as a pro-lifer than wrong as a pro-choicer.

 

[jetriot]

Oh the hypocrisy...

So, let me get this straight: killing the babies inside the womb is perfectly fine, but killing them minutes after the first attempt failed is inhuman? Paradox much?

Also, these children are not just unwanted, they're also underdeveloped (24 weeks are the legal maximum in the states) and have already survived one abortion attempt, so they're more than likely to have suffered serious injuries in the progress.

In the end we get an underdeveloped, injured and utterly unwanted lump of meat nobody wants and whose probably short, painful life would cost a fortune because somebody wants it to suffer as long as humanly possible.

Sorry, but that guy did the only right thing by putting an end to their misery. It might not seem favorable to self declared moral people, but there are worse fortunes than death.

Edit:

Read the article on another side before, it didn't say the babies are normally born before they get stabbed.

Still, I'm okay with this practice. Making it okay to kill them inside the womb and condemning it minutes after the left it is simply hypocrisy. That's like saying "running over a hobo with my car is okay when I close my eyes before I do it".

Late term or not, a baby gets killed in the process regardless. One either agrees with it or doesn't. Saying "I'm okay with abortion when..." is bullshit.

I for my part can't see anything wrong with what he's done. Those kids were unwanted and he put an end to their life, everything else is just details. The amount of passed weeks, morals and so on don't matter the slightest in the end. The kids would either have lived or died, there's nothing in between.

Also, ever seen a puplic orphanage from the inside?

The entire Middle East is unwanted. Lets just wipe it out. Those people have horrible lives. As a person that knows whats best for them and what is in the future for them I shall wipe them from existence with a few well placed nukes. Speaking of unwanted, black babies in urban centers also have shitty lives and are unwanted. Maybe Hitler had the right idea after all.

 

[Mike Fang]

The descriptions of the condition of this man's office, staff and the manner in which he performed his terminations is disgusting and awful, which seems to be a consensus. But consider this: what he was doing wouldn't be considered even half as terrible if his timing had been a bit sooner. It would have been considered sloppy and failing to meet health codes, but not as terrible as murdering babies; all just because of a time difference. Mull THAT over while trying to justify convenience termination: this guy would have been getting slapped on the wrist, maybe treated like a white collar criminal at most for failing to meet health standards, but for the sake of a few days. Instead, he's a baby murderer.

Just...think about that.

 

[Naeras]

Because this debate relies entirely upon when life begins and it is entirely subjective, the debate can never be won with logic, science or better arguments. It is simply a perpetual argument. That said if I were to wrong I would rather be wrong as a pro-lifer than wrong as a pro-choicer.

Actually, science can easily answer that.
"When life begins" is technically long before pregnancy, as both egg cells and sperm cells fulfill all the points necessary to be considered living long before any kind of pregnancy happens. A fetus isn't much different from those cells. That is, before week 12 of the pregnancy. After that is the nervous system is well enough developed for the fetus to have some kind of sentience, as well as feel pain. Which most likely is the reason why there are restrictions on abortions after week 12(at least here in Norway, dunno how it is where you come from).

My point? Before week 12, a fetus is quite simply a big, fancy biochemical reaction. They're on level with a bacteria, or a plant, or a tumor. They can't think or feel pain. Yes, it's life, but so were the cells that fused for form that fetus.

Which, incidentally, is why what this doctor did was not late term abortions.

 

[shintakie10]

Oh the hypocrisy...

So, let me get this straight: killing the babies inside the womb is perfectly fine, but killing them minutes after the first attempt failed is inhuman? Paradox much?

Also, these children are not just unwanted, they're also underdeveloped (24 weeks are the legal maximum in the states) and have already survived one abortion attempt, so they're more than likely to have suffered serious injuries in the progress.

In the end we get an underdeveloped, injured and utterly unwanted lump of meat nobody wants and whose probably short, painful life would cost a fortune because somebody wants it to suffer as long as humanly possible.

Sorry, but that guy did the only right thing by putting an end to their misery. It might not seem favorable to self declared moral people, but there are worse fortunes than death.

Edit:

Read the article on another side before, it didn't say the babies are normally born before they get stabbed.

Still, I'm okay with this practice. Making it okay to kill them inside the womb and condemning it minutes after the left it is simply hypocrisy. That's like saying "running over a hobo with my car is okay when I close my eyes before I do it".

Late term or not, a baby gets killed in the process regardless. One either agrees with it or doesn't. Saying "I'm okay with abortion when..." is bullshit.

I for my part can't see anything wrong with what he's done. Those kids were unwanted and he put an end to their life, everything else is just details. The amount of passed weeks, morals and so on don't matter the slightest in the end. The kids would either have lived or died, there's nothing in between.

Also, ever seen a puplic orphanage from the inside?

The entire Middle East is unwanted. Lets just wipe it out. Those people have horrible lives. As a person that knows whats best for them and what is in the future for them I shall wipe them from existence with a few well placed nukes. Speaking of unwanted, black babies in urban centers also have shitty lives and are unwanted. Maybe Hitler had the right idea after all.

What the flying fuck are you even talkin about?

There's a very very large difference between...whatever the fuck you're on about...and a child bein born that will die, will die very soon into its life before it even really understands much of anythin, and will die in horrible excruciatin pain.

People shouldn't be forced to live like that if they don't want to live like that. Children shouldn't be forced to live like that at all.

 

[Flaery]

This is unsettling to say the least. Personally, the thought of abortion leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I've learned deal with it. However, in this case, the babies was born unto this world alive, and their deaths can't be justified. They may not have been fully developed, but they survived through a premature delivery and were born alive. There's no two-shits about that.

 

[ScorpionPrince]

Killing babies after they are born is murder, unless you want to call it "postnatal abortion". Then again, you could call every murder a "postnatal abortion". Anyway, I'm of the opinion that abortions should be legalized, If only for the fact that more qualified people could perform the procedure. Back-alley abortions wouldn't be neccesary, and malpractice (such as this extreme case) can hopefully be avoided.

 

[jetriot]

Oh the hypocrisy...

So, let me get this straight: killing the babies inside the womb is perfectly fine, but killing them minutes after the first attempt failed is inhuman? Paradox much?

Also, these children are not just unwanted, they're also underdeveloped (24 weeks are the legal maximum in the states) and have already survived one abortion attempt, so they're more than likely to have suffered serious injuries in the progress.

In the end we get an underdeveloped, injured and utterly unwanted lump of meat nobody wants and whose probably short, painful life would cost a fortune because somebody wants it to suffer as long as humanly possible.

Sorry, but that guy did the only right thing by putting an end to their misery. It might not seem favorable to self declared moral people, but there are worse fortunes than death.

Edit:

Read the article on another side before, it didn't say the babies are normally born before they get stabbed.

Still, I'm okay with this practice. Making it okay to kill them inside the womb and condemning it minutes after the left it is simply hypocrisy. That's like saying "running over a hobo with my car is okay when I close my eyes before I do it".

Late term or not, a baby gets killed in the process regardless. One either agrees with it or doesn't. Saying "I'm okay with abortion when..." is bullshit.

I for my part can't see anything wrong with what he's done. Those kids were unwanted and he put an end to their life, everything else is just details. The amount of passed weeks, morals and so on don't matter the slightest in the end. The kids would either have lived or died, there's nothing in between.

Also, ever seen a puplic orphanage from the inside?

The entire Middle East is unwanted. Lets just wipe it out. Those people have horrible lives. As a person that knows whats best for them and what is in the future for them I shall wipe them from existence with a few well placed nukes. Speaking of unwanted, black babies in urban centers also have shitty lives and are unwanted. Maybe Hitler had the right idea after all.

What the flying fuck are you even talkin about?

There's a very very large difference between...whatever the fuck you're on about...and a child bein born that will die, will die very soon into its life before it even really understands much of anythin, and will die in horrible excruciatin pain.

People shouldn't be forced to live like that if they don't want to live like that. Children shouldn't be forced to live like that at all.

You should be the one to decide who a child should live? The shitty potential mother should be? The government? Their life is going to suck no matter what so it is up to us to end it now and put it out of its misery? They aren't horses, these a re human beings that you want to kill because you think they might feel bad in the future? What you need to add to your argument is how these babies are going to be much more likely to commit crimes.

My analogy is perfect. Wipe out Africa, their lives suck and all they do is kill each other. Lets wipe out all black babies while we are at it because stats show they commit more crime and have a lower standard of living. I being antagonistic I know. But you are presuming to tell me that you know how a child life is going to turn out in foster care, or with a poor mother. Therefore you believe killing a child outside the womb is justified. It really is sick. Remind me not to be around you if I break my leg. Wouldn't want to be euthanized.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Disgusting. I'm all for abortion, but killing the poor thing AFTER it's been born is just monstruous. I mean you already gave birth, what's stopping you from delivering it to an orphanage?

Wait wait . You do realise that the women that wanted an abortion went there ? So they wanted the baby aborted . He just used questionable methods of getting it done . He's no monster , it's not like he did anything without the mothers consent .

OT: i don't think he should be accused of murder . Maybe malpractice . But not murder . And even less have the death penalty . But americans love killing, and babies . So all the " OMG THEIR JUST BABIES" people are going to want the death penalty , and call this guy a monster .

They were living human beings at that point and he killed them. I'm all for abortion but killing the baby after it's been delivered is murder. If a guy walked into the maternity ward in a hospital and shot all the newborns, that would be murder. The only difference is that he's doing it with scissors and with the mother's consent. THAT DOESN'T MATTER. If a mother kills her child after she's given birth, she has killed a living human being that had a right to at least go to an orphanage.
I agree that he doesn't deserve the death penalty but I'm against that in general. He should however get life in prison.

 

[krazykidd]

Disgusting. I'm all for abortion, but killing the poor thing AFTER it's been born is just monstruous. I mean you already gave birth, what's stopping you from delivering it to an orphanage?

Wait wait . You do realise that the women that wanted an abortion went there ? So they wanted the baby aborted . He just used questionable methods of getting it done . He's no monster , it's not like he did anything without the mothers consent .

OT: i don't think he should be accused of murder . Maybe malpractice . But not murder . And even less have the death penalty . But americans love killing, and babies . So all the " OMG THEIR JUST BABIES" people are going to want the death penalty , and call this guy a monster .

They were living human beings at that point and he killed them. I'm all for abortion but killing the baby after it's been delivered is murder. If a guy walked into the maternity ward in a hospital and shot all the newborns, that would be murder. The only difference is that he's doing it with scissors and with the mother's consent. THAT DOESN'T MATTER. If a mother kills her child after she's given birth, she has killed a living human being that had a right to at least go to an orphanage.
I agree that he doesn't deserve the death penalty but I'm against that in general. He should however get life in prison.

And what about the mothers that came to him? He didn't walk into a maternity ward and killed infants , that's exactly my point . The mother came to him so he could " abort " them . If you ask me they are more guilty of murder than he is .

 

[Altorin]

if the babies had been dead in the womb, even if he technically did it... I probably wouldn't care that much.. Yeah, it would suck, and would certainly fall into malpractice and I'd never want him treating another living thing.. But once you give something a breath of life, you have no choice but to call it alive.. at that point you should try and keep the thing alive, not immediately kill it. I didn't know I had such a definite line, I'd never really considered this scenario before, but that's murder at that point.

And what about the mothers that came to him? He didn't walk into a maternity ward and killed infants , that's exactly my point . The mother came to him so he could " abort " them . If you ask me they are more guilty of murder than he is .

Mothers in that situation can be crazy. and probably are crazy. All of their support structures, if its come to that, have fallen apart, and those women are in a hard enough spot. Yeah, it's horrible, but it's horrible for them too. They probably don't know any better if they're in this situation. The Doctor definitely should know better. He's breaking several well thought out and laid out rules that he should be completely aware of, and aware of the reason they're put in place.

I'm not saying the mothers are blameless angels, but let's be honest here.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Disgusting. I'm all for abortion, but killing the poor thing AFTER it's been born is just monstruous. I mean you already gave birth, what's stopping you from delivering it to an orphanage?

Evidently, a pair of scissors.

You are my hero. Also, the correct spelling is "grisly" in this context, for future knowledge.




I'm feeling particularly misanthropic, so I kind of want this asshole to escape justice, and start a hair salon where he shaves you bald and glues pre-styled wigs to you

 

[The Funslinger]

But americans love killing, and babies

It's a shame they get so uppity when the two go hand in hand.

In all seriousness though, I'm pro-abortion and pro-euthanasia. But abortion refers to the removal of an unborn child, and this was executing actual newborns. Hell, even in countries that allow euthanasia, there are guidelines to prevent suffering.

Yeah, the guy's a murderer.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

The number of posts here calling for just malpractice charges frightens me. I mean, I can understand the pro-abortion stance to a certain degree but what this guy did was horrifying. I am still not a fan of the death penalty though.

I am very pro-life as is about to become apparent and am about to go on a little rant because why not. It's the internet, try and stop me.

Abortion should be legal because women will do it themselves anyway and could hurt or even kill themselves in the process. Same logic, meth should be legal because people will make it anyway and the process is dangerous and they might be killed in a meth lab explosion if they do it wrong. This is not a good argument in my opinion.

"It's my body and only I can decide what to do with it." You're right. Unfortunately it is not your body that is being torn to shreds as it is sucked up through a tube. You also have every right to fire a gun, but not if it is pointed at someone.

A fetus is not the same as an egg or sperm. Eggs and sperm only have half the genetic makeup of a human because that's kinda how reproduction works and are only a small part of a larger organism that continues to live on without them. A fetus is genetically unique and separate from both of its parents. It is a human life, science confirms it, and destroying the fetus does not allow that human life to continue.

I do not subscribe to the belief that humans are slaves to their sexual urges. It does not take superhuman willpower to say no to sex. I do not mean to advocate abstinence only education, but the notion that we simply can't stop humping anything that will let us is absurd. People need to be responsible and consider the consequences when entering into a sexual relationship. I know sexual desire can impair judgement, but so does alcohol, and last I checked "I was drunk" does not absolve people of the decisions they make or the crimes they commit while under the influence.

Women do have the right to choose. They choose whether or not to have sex, whether or not to have sex during the window of their cycle that they are fertile, whether or not to use any of the dozens of various forms of birth control readily available, whether or not to use a morning after pill or equivalent if one of those methods fails. By the time anyone gets to an abortion, a lot of choices have been made by several people.

"I fetus cannot survive outside of the womb." Well technically they can under the right conditions, artificial wombs are not too far off on the technological side. I know you are going to say that it is has to be a ridiculously narrow set of conditions, but the same is true for you and me. We can only survive when the oxygen levels, temperature, and available nutrients are just right. Conditions that likely only naturally exist on this tiny insignificant speck of dust in the universe. We cannot survive in the vacuum of space, therefore it is OK to kill us for any reason

I know that this is not a clear cut issue, and there are scenarios, such as when the life of the mother is in danger, where the issue gets even cloudier. I know that pregnancy is a very big deal, with a lot of serious medical and social concerns. I know that my examples are flawed, but I still think they are good food for thought. I do not hate those who are pro-abortion or women as it is often assumed of those who are pro-life on the internet. This is one of the only issues on which I have a relatively extreme views and I realize that.