After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[SecondPrize]

Um, who? Han? Luke? Poe? She flew well, but we never saw any comparison to any other pilots except TIE pilots, who are... TIE pilots. Poe was even more amazing of a pilot in the film, but he's explicitly described as an experienced ace. But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

I have no idea why people don't tear Poe apart like they do Rey. That single shot in which he destroyed like thirteen TIE fighters and blasts several troopers, doing sharp turns, and Finn yells "That's one hell of a pilot!" was absolutely absurd. An ace pilot is lucky to shoot down five fighters in their career. In that one scene, he became like a triple ace pilot.

Dear god, you are right. I just went and found that scene. That is completely absurd. For some reason I remembered him taking out only two TIEs and a ground target. I guess my brain just rejected it, and I missed that scene on my rewatch because of the baby. I do remember thinking it was pretty stupid when I first saw it (though I still like the character.)

And everyone focuses on complaining about Rey's piloting ability in the same movie.

Well, Poe is Luke's Piloting Abilities: The Character. That's all he is. Maybe people just accept it.

I can't see Rey as anything but a Mary Sue. It's the language abilities, the piloting of the Falcon her first time going from can't take off to outflying the shit out of two Tie pilots in close quarters, the competent use of the Force from only having seen the telekinesis and mind trick and then she closes her eyes and learns lightsaber combat like Neo downloading Kung Fu. Then the one time she fucks up, with releasing the awful creature things on Han and Chewie's barge, it turns out to be the exactly right thing to do. There's no struggling for her, she just has everything. Luke had to struggle. Maybe they'll improve in the next films.

 

[Frankster]

As per the novelization, she had access to an old flight simulator that she spent excessive amounts of time with, due to literally not having anything else to do in her spare time.

Aye I remember you educating me about that and have kept it in mind, our prior conversations is why I'm mollified about Rey in general, I've now adopted a wait and see approach so maybe I'll be warming up to her in the next films.
As for why I didn't take her at her word when she said "i'm a pilot", it's because I honestly really pinky swear promise thought not knowing how to fly was going to be a core aspect of her character until she said that, I was sold on the premise that she never was taught anything and what she knew she had to figure out for herself , and was growing to expect that Rey/Finn/Poe would function like the three vikings and tag each other in as the situation requires, so Fin or Poe would have been the ones to fly. I'm gonna be sticking by this because I did not go into the film with preconceptions in this regard and came to that conclusion naturally during my viewing so feel like the film somewhat tricked me in this regard. Or maybe I'm just stupid, I'll let the jury decide on that.

To put it another way, I did not need to hear Rey say "i'm a great mechanic" because that was shown loud and clear. I did not need to hear Luke saying "i'm a pilot" to see he was one, he was clearly comfortable with vehicles of all kind and seemed comfortable in space even when we didn't know what a t-15 skyhopper was.

With Rey it was out of the blue as far as i'm concerned. I guess this is a show and don't tell situation (or something like that), even half a second of Rey in a simulator would have changed my perceptions totally but I was honestly buying into the poor scavenger thing and thus assumed she would have educational deficiencies compared to other characters and had never been in a spaceship or learnt to fly one at any point.
I guess I just expected more then I actually got if that makes sense, I don't give a damn if Rey is the best pilot behind Poe but I don't feel my assumption was made in bad faith nor that I'd have felt differently if Rey had a penis, I'd still have thought it kinda random for the character to go "oh btw i know how to fly!" right before jumping into the falcon.

As for force users passively seeing into the future, I think it's not as straightforward as that but before I side rant: the force doesn't teach you how to use complex machinery or devices you didn't already know how to use. Which is why in my original viewing thinking Rey had no prior teachings, knowing she was force sensitive didn't change my impressions one bit.
Back to force users intuitively knowing the future, I've heard that said before and I always felt it to be a bit weird, way too many Jedi were easily taken by surprise when the clones turned against them which tells this passive isn't as strong as one might think, at very least you need to put some conscious thought into it otherwise it merely translates into a flat skill % increase due to having better reflexes then you should have.
And when you consider duels between Jedi/Sith, if they could all sense the future then this would it almost impossible for a duel to end, so there's something else going on here. I mean heck, what is the difference between a noob Jedi and a seasoned Jedi in this case if they went into a duel? Does one just simply feel the future better then the other and it cancels out the other's precognitive abilities? This just feels a bit weird to me but then this might just be one of the most poorly explained aspects of jedis in general I guess.

-Re dark side users and mind tricks. Bringing up ThatOtherGirls response as it's relevant and similar to what you describe:

I think the dark side mind fuckery is probably harder to resist than the mind trick, it seems to be a much more direct and brutal form of coercion (the dark side of the mind trick, if you will.)

I've never seen a sith use the mind trick in any media so *shrugs* this is a bit of a mystery to me.
In Kotor and certain star wars system powers are classified as light and dark and become easier to use/better if you were of the right alignment but that's of dubious cannon status.
Perhaps the answer could be found in one of the Star Wars rpgs which would likely have rules for Sith and Jedi and how powers are affected by your alignment, but the few Star Wars rps I've dabbled in were with GURPS so wouldn't know.

Either way I do like the idea of sith having a dark side variant of jedi powers. We have sith lightning which seems to be sith only so there is a precedent for different power sets and this reconciles quite nicely with the external knowledge that Anakin was horribad at jedi mind tricks, he became proficient in the dark side of the mind trick instead!

In Empire though the only reason he tortured Han (and likely chewie) was to get Luke to come to his friends aid. Unless I am mistaken I don't think he was looking for any information, just to cause enough pain to get Luke's attention through force sensitivity.

I'll have to rewatch Empire at some point but thought he interrogated them to try to find out Luke's location. My bad if that's not the case.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'll have to rewatch Empire at some point but thought he interrogated them to try to find out Luke's location. My bad if that's not the case.

It was 100% just a trap to bait Luke by letting him feel their pain. Han even notes that they never asked him any questions.

RE: Rey and piloting...I completely agree that an establishing scene would have done a lot more work than blurting out random exposition, but as previously discussed the film was ridiculously crammed for time. It might sound ridiculous to say it, but TFA is a film that would have benefited greatly from a 3.5 hour director's cut.

 

[Megalodon]

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Sure they are 'trained, professional fighter pilots'. Of course we saw what the famed precision of Imperial stormtroopers meant in the original series so I don't think comparing heroes to stormtroopers or other imperial mooks really proves anything.

So by this logic, should we be so hard on Poe for apparently being the ace pilot Sue (as several have in this thread)? After all, "he's only shooting down TIE pilots".

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Sure they are 'trained, professional fighter pilots'. Of course we saw what the famed precision of Imperial stormtroopers meant in the original series so I don't think comparing heroes to stormtroopers or other imperial mooks really proves anything.

So by this logic, should we be so hard on Poe for apparently being the ace pilot Sue (as several have in this thread)? After all, "he's only shooting down TIE pilots".

If you have to try to ask me to defend someone else's logic your argument must be pretty dead.

I never said he was an ace pilot sue, so that has jack shit to do with me. He's an ace pilot, that's his thing, I don't see a problem with it.

 

[fix-the-spade]

To me it's a glaring plot hole. Episode VII did a very poor job at justifying the Rebel/Empire continuum, whatever they're called now.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's one of these things that I thought wouldn't even need explaining.

Even without the Emperor and Darth Vader the Empire still has millions (if not billions) of troops and tens of thousands of warships. The war would rage potentially for decades even if the Rebels won every single battle they engaged in, which they clearly don't over the course of the trilogy.

It would have even made a great explanation for Kylo Ren. He wasn't tempted by the Dark Side just because, he was rebelling against the hypocrisy of Luke teaching peace and balance whilst being one of the leaders in the continuing slaughter of millions.

But then it's JJ Abrams producing, don't expect attention to detail when you can make new shit up every thirty seconds.

 

[Cowabungaa]

To me it's a glaring plot hole. Episode VII did a very poor job at justifying the Rebel/Empire continuum, whatever they're called now.

To be honest, does it really need to be explained that much? It makes complete sense. The Empire lost its Emperor, a battle and two big space stations. It has an entire empire left. Would it make sense for the Empire to suddenly poof out of existence. Like, the original trilogy never showed the defeat of the Empire. It only showed the Rebel Alliance striking it a very powerful blow. This is just the war continuing.

As for the New Order being suddenly there, yes I'll give you that, that wasn't explained at all. Given, I'm not entirely sure it has to be explained entirely because that way you get bogged down in exposition, but some would be nice. I think J.J. Abrams likes his Mystery Box a bit too much.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

To me it's a glaring plot hole. Episode VII did a very poor job at justifying the Rebel/Empire continuum, whatever they're called now.

To be honest, does it really need to be explained that much? It makes complete sense. The Empire lost its Emperor, a battle and two big space stations. It has an entire empire left. Would it make sense for the Empire to suddenly poof out of existence. Like, the original trilogy never showed the defeat of the Empire. It only showed the Rebel Alliance striking it a very powerful blow. This is just the war continuing.

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

If recent events in the real world have taught us anything it's that when you remove the figurehead of a militant institution, the remainder immediately collapse into peaceful repose.

 

[happyninja42]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

If recent events in the real world have taught us anything it's that when you remove the figurehead of a militant institution, the remainder immediately collapse into peaceful repose.

Yeah, even the EU novels acknowledge that there are still thousands of Star Destroyers out there, fully manned and armed. I think they were called The Remnant in that timeline? Made sense to me, that they would basically become like Ronin. Masterless warriors looking out for themselves now. Now you would have these various "bandit kingdoms" as they took over localized systems for their own benefit, and established themselves as the new robber barons of the area.

I got the impression from Ep 7 that something roughly like this happened. That they signed the forms to get the Rebellion off their backs, and then slinked off to a quiet system to lick their wounds, and rebuild in secret. Made sense to me.

Sure, they could've explained that you know...in the movie instead of in the novel, and I will forever criticize any film/tv show for making me have to outsource my knowledge of their show, to fully understand their show. It was a weak point in Ep 7, but not an overly huge one for me, and I was more than capable of inferring what likely happened politically in the 30 year gap.

Still, actually saying it would've been nice.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I got the impression from Ep 7 that something roughly like this happened. That they signed the forms to get the Rebellion off their backs, and then slinked off to a quiet system to lick their wounds, and rebuild in secret. Made sense to me.

Sure, they could've explained that you know...in the movie instead of in the novel, and I will forever criticize any film/tv show for making me have to outsource my knowledge of their show, to fully understand their show. It was a weak point in Ep 7, but not an overly huge one for me, and I was more than capable of inferring what likely happened politically in the 30 year gap.

Still, actually saying it would've been nice.

Yep, agreed. Was probably the single most painful omission, even if I understand their reasons for omitting it.

In the Pen and Paper campaign I'm running for our RPG group, I set it roughly ten years after Jedi, just after the disarmament treaty, and a large clump of the Imperial Remnant...having been pushed out of the Galactic Core...is now fucking things up for them in Hutt Space.

The First Order isn't even "The rest of the Empire". It was a splinter group. Fanatics and hard liners.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

If recent events in the real world have taught us anything it's that when you remove the figurehead of a militant institution, the remainder immediately collapse into peaceful repose.

It's a fantasy film. As soon as Sauron dies and Barad-d?r collapses, the story ends.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's a fantasy film. As soon as Sauron dies and Barad-d?r collapses, the story ends.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scouring_of_the_Shire

"The Scouring of the Shire" is the penultimate chapter of the epic fantasy The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien and the eighteenth chapter of The Return of the King. The hobbits, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin, return home to the Shire to find that it has been despoiled and corrupted by ruffians and their leader, the wizard Saruman, now known as Sharkey. To date, it has been left out of all film adaptations of the novel.

The author denied that the chapter was an allegory of the state of Britain during the aftermath of World War II.

Maybe you should have picked a different fantasy novel as an example.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It's a fantasy film. As soon as Sauron dies and Barad-d?r collapses, the story ends.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scouring_of_the_Shire

"The Scouring of the Shire" is the penultimate chapter of the epic fantasy The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien and the eighteenth chapter of The Return of the King. The hobbits, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin, return home to the Shire to find that it has been despoiled and corrupted by ruffians and their leader, the wizard Saruman, now known as Sharkey. To date, it has been left out of all film adaptations of the novel.

The author denied that the chapter was an allegory of the state of Britain during the aftermath of World War II.

Maybe you should have picked a different fantasy novel as an example.

I picked a film, not a novel. And don't throw the books at me mate, I was done with them before the movies even came out.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

To me it's a glaring plot hole. Episode VII did a very poor job at justifying the Rebel/Empire continuum, whatever they're called now.

To be honest, does it really need to be explained that much? It makes complete sense. The Empire lost its Emperor, a battle and two big space stations. It has an entire empire left. Would it make sense for the Empire to suddenly poof out of existence. Like, the original trilogy never showed the defeat of the Empire. It only showed the Rebel Alliance striking it a very powerful blow. This is just the war continuing.

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

Nothing about Jedi's end suggests the war is over. Unless you're talking about the crappy Special Edition, where they added those celebrations on the other worlds.

No, I'm talking about the one and only 1983 film, which has as conclusive an end as anybody could've hoped for back then.

 

[C14N]

I never got why this confused so many people. I only saw the movie once when it came out but I managed to gather (or maybe I just assumed) that the First Order are a big paramilitary force led by Snoke. The GR is either publically in denial that they exist or they are just unaware of the extent of their power. It's pretty easy for the First Order to hide because space is fucking huge guys and until they use their Death Star Mk II in the film, they haven't really done much to warrant further inspection (because the shitty government aren't going to care about some backwater villages raided by Kylo Ren). The film makes it quite clear that the leaders of the GR are a completely swamped congress who get nothing done which is why they can't raise a real army to fight the First Order. However at the same time they or some part of they are privately supporting the rebel force lead by Leia by giving them ships and guns.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I picked a film, not a novel.

Sorry, is the source material for that film not applicable? You're attempting to make the argument that "fantasy" demands the collapse of all antagonistic elements once a primary antagonist is toppled. Now you're playing a shell game with films.

Saruman's Shire stint lasts a single chapter and is quickly stifled. It ends a trilogy, it doesn't start one.

That's nice, and also completely irrelevant. You suggested that the existence of antagonistic elements in the Star Wars universe post Palpatine constituted "a glaring plot hole". You attempted to support this argument by stating "it's fantasy", using LOTR as your example. Whether the scouring of the Shire and the continuation of hostilities in Middle Earth constituted one chapter or twenty, occurred at the end or beginning of a book, is irrelevant. Killing Sauron did not remove all evil from the world. Threats and suffering remained.

 

[C14N]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

Just because the war is over doesn't mean all the problems in the universe are solved. The Force Awakens seems to be set some 30-40 years after Return of the Jedi. That's less time than it took for the victory of WW1 to give way to WW2.