After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[Cowabungaa]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

Indeed, it does suggest that if you ask me. Especially the celebratory nature of the newer cuts, but even before that they presented it as happiness and sunshine from here on out. Fireworks and all that shit.

Which I think was really, really stupid.

I always thought VI's ending was dumb as hell because it made so little sense when you think even a few seconds about the nature of the Empire. So if you ask me the ending of the original trilogy has more to answer for than the start of the new trilogy. There's still a huge command structure and bureaucratic apparatus in place, there's still untold soldiers and a huge naval fleet to contest with.

Of course that shit's going to hang around, of course some element within the Empirical hierarchy is going to take over, lay claim to that shit and continue to try to hold on to its power. It's a real "no shit Sherlock" situation.

snip

Holy shit Saruman went by Sharkey? That's too funny.

 

[elvor0]

The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

Generically suggesting all people concerned with Rey's characterization were sexist would be unfair, you are correct.

Suggesting that a healthy number of people are, however...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=2#23606165

I can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike Rey for perfectly supportable non-sexist reasons, if you can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike her because "get these bitches out of my entertainment".

 

[Stu35]

The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

I've noticed the "sexism" defence popping up a lot when any female characters are criticised.

Just look at the Ghostbusters remake - they've basically won no matter what they do - if people like it then good for them, if they don't then it's clearly because of sexism, and nothing to do with the film itself.


Personally I think the Luke = Rey comparison of mary-sue ness is a flawed one, Luke spent 3 films growing into his powers - by the end of IV he could just about get a torpedo down an exhaust (on the 2nd attempt), by the end of Empire he'd had his hand cut off after being brutally outmatched by a dark lord of the sith (after spending the film failing in nearly every task Yoda set him), finally, at the end of Jedi he was truly complete...


Rey needs to be the best pilot ever? Done.
Rey needs to know how to completely repair and optimise a ship? Happy days.
Rey needs to mind-trick someone? Easy-peezy lemon-sqeezy.
Rey needs to beat a powerful Knight of Ren(?!) at both summoning lightsaber then lightsaber combat itself? Not a drama.

The girl has no flaws. Luke had flaws.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

Indeed, it does suggest that if you ask me. Especially the celebratory nature of the newer cuts, but even before that they presented it as happiness and sunshine from here on out. Fireworks and all that shit.

Which I think was really, really stupid.

I always thought VI's ending was dumb as hell because it made so little sense when you think even a few seconds about the nature of the Empire. So if you ask me the ending of the original trilogy has more to answer for than the start of the new trilogy. There's still a huge command structure and bureaucratic apparatus in place, there's still untold soldiers and a huge naval fleet to contest with.

Of course that shit's going to hang around, of course some element within the Empirical hierarchy is going to take over, lay claim to that shit and continue to try to hold on to its power. It's a real "no shit Sherlock" situation.

snip

Holy shit Saruman went by Sharkey? That's too funny.

I don't think the end of Jedi suggested the problems were all over (at least not in the original cuts). I think they suggested that everyone in the rebellion thought they were over. But they were not. Which sets up nicely for the events of TFA.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

Generically suggesting all people concerned with Rey's characterization were sexist would be unfair, you are correct.

Suggesting that a healthy number of people are, however...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=2#23606165

I can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike Rey for perfectly supportable non-sexist reasons, if you can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike her because "get these bitches out of my entertainment".

Some of those are really bizarre, and not even in a sexist way.

I'm all for diversity but I think what Disney is showing is that it only matters if the white females are happy lol. Why not someone of a different race instead of giving us what we just had in Force Awakens

Finn is so sad.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Rey needs to be the best pilot ever? Done.
Rey needs to know how to completely repair and optimise a ship? Happy days.
Rey needs to mind-trick someone? Easy-peezy lemon-sqeezy.
Rey needs to beat a powerful Knight of Ren(?!) at both summoning lightsaber then lightsaber combat itself? Not a drama.

The girl has no flaws. Luke had flaws.

This argument containing two lies and two exaggerations was quite convincing. I'm on board!

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Still doesn't change the fact that TIE fighters have a much better kill count than the Stormtroopers. Heck, in Episode 4 the rebels didn't start dying until the TIEs were sent out.

Finn is so sad.

Finn's also not the Uber special force user. He's honestly the more interesting character, but the movie doesn't really do as much with him as it could've and should've.

Seriously, the guy's the ONE Stormtrooper who didn't take to the conditioning, and just wants out of the whole mess. He's forced to fight and kill against people he'd been raised with his whole life, but they don't really have him reflecting on that. Just give him a lightsaber and murder away.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

Generically suggesting all people concerned with Rey's characterization were sexist would be unfair, you are correct.

Suggesting that a healthy number of people are, however...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=2#23606165

I can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike Rey for perfectly supportable non-sexist reasons, if you can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike her because "get these bitches out of my entertainment".

You're gonna use freaking Youtube comments as evidence for sexism against Rey being the driving cause of the Sue accusations? Really?

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Rey needs to be the best pilot ever? Done.

Despite the fact she nearly wrecks the Falcon on takeoff, and states explicitly she's flown before just not outside the atmosphere... not necessarily the best pilot ever but she has reasons to know how to fly.

Rey needs to know how to completely repair and optimise a ship? Happy days.

She knows one part that was added into the Falcon, and companion material also explains she used to sneak aboard the ship at night and putter around it.

Rey needs to mind-trick someone? Easy-peezy lemon-sqeezy.

She fails at first, and also there's hints that she has had training in canon companion material. The movie poorly explains that though. But still... she fails at first.

Rey needs to beat a powerful Knight of Ren(?!) at both summoning lightsaber then lightsaber combat itself? Not a drama.

Again the whole idea she has more than likely had some training in force usage and has shown to be competent in melee combat. Ren is also hurting from a bowcaster shot, a shot mind you that has been shown to devastate everyone else who's been hit by it.

The girl has no flaws. Luke had flaws.

She has flaws, she gets captured, she screws up trying to help the party escape the freighter and lets loose the carnivorous life forms Han had aboard the ship by accident. See also the almost crashing of the Falcon. Willful ignorance of the facts does not support your assertions.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Still doesn't change the fact that TIE fighters have a much better kill count than the Stormtroopers. Heck, in Episode 4 the rebels didn't start dying until the TIEs were sent out.

Episode 4 starts off with a rebel corvette getting boarded and Rebels dying in droves.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Spoiler

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Still doesn't change the fact that TIE fighters have a much better kill count than the Stormtroopers. Heck, in Episode 4 the rebels didn't start dying until the TIEs were sent out.

Episode 4 starts off with a rebel corvette getting boarded and Rebels dying in droves.

That's also the last time the poor Stoormtroopers get a kill count that high till Episode 7, and that second time STILL had a bunch of them dying in signifigant numbers.

 

[EternallyBored]

Spoiler

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Still doesn't change the fact that TIE fighters have a much better kill count than the Stormtroopers. Heck, in Episode 4 the rebels didn't start dying until the TIEs were sent out.

Episode 4 starts off with a rebel corvette getting boarded and Rebels dying in droves.

Pretty much, TIE fighters are about as effective as Stormtroopers, basically they can hit the rebels until the heroes show up where they pretty much get wrecked or become a running joke to make the heroes look better. Like Obi Wan talking about Luke's aunt and uncle getting killed by talking up the stormtroopers like they're precise crack shots, who then proceed to be made fools of during the Death Star escape.

Likewise, TIE fighters get to shoot down the extras to look threatening, but completely fail to be a threat against the Millennium Falcon and Luke shooting in a turret he's never been in before, or getting blown up from behind in the Death Star battle. Like Stormtroopers they also fail to do more than completely miss Luke's X-Wing despite him making no impressive dodging maneuvers.

If anything the original trilogy TIE pilots were much less impressive than their episode VII counterparts, although I chalk this up as limitations in special effects making it impossible to show TIE pilots doing the maneuvers that pilots in the prequels or episode VII are able to do.

In this at least Episode VII is consistent, the bad guys are elite trained soldiers right up until they come up against someone with plot shields where they then pretty much become comically bad shots/pilots.

 

[elvor0]

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

Generically suggesting all people concerned with Rey's characterization were sexist would be unfair, you are correct.

Suggesting that a healthy number of people are, however...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=2#23606165

I can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike Rey for perfectly supportable non-sexist reasons, if you can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike her because "get these bitches out of my entertainment".

Well I agree with you, I don't agree with the guy I quoted though, as he was generically casting that allusion.

However! To play devils advocate, while a good portion of those people may well be sexist, I don't believe some of them /are/. Not in the sense that they actually have a problem with women, rather...well people on the internet, especially youtube aren't very good at expressing themselves, and a perceived slight can cause people to react rather crassly. Some of them I don't think are even taking issue with the character being female, as they mention her "whiteness".

I think their problem, or at least what they think is the problem with "feminism" invading Star Wars is that they don't see Rey as a character, so much as a vehicle for girl power, without actually having written a decent character. In their eyes, it's appeasement at the cost of decent writing. If TFA and Rey had been a good character, I don't think there would be so much of an issue.(Except the guys who hang out on Return of Kings...those guys are complete twats) Now, it's unfair to paint the new female lead in RO with that same brush, but after Rey and TFA in general being a bit of a shambles, they're suspicious.

Now, that's not what I think. I think TFA was just poorly written and Rey would've been just as bland had she been male, although it's entirely possible the writer did have a bit of a hard on for Rey as he was writing her, but by no means do I think it was for political or social reasons, writer was just lazy, maybe a bit too excitable. For one, her gender is never bought up during the films, nor did anyone making it make anything of it, she just was. I do think appeasement at the cost of writing or tone is a thing that can happen(New Lara vs Old Lara, although that's because I think the new version is actually flawed in its portrayal of empowerment) but genuine cases are rare, nor do I think that's whats happened here.

The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

I've noticed the "sexism" defence popping up a lot when any female characters are criticised.

Just look at the Ghostbusters remake - they've basically won no matter what they do - if people like it then good for them, if they don't then it's clearly because of sexism, and nothing to do with the film itself.

mmm...it really grinds my gears. Even if you've taken the time to deconstruct something, explain reasons why you don't like something that have nothing to do with gender, some lazy ass git stonewalls you with "well you don't like it because you're sexist!"

That Ghostbusters trailer was....*shudder* it was embarrassing to watch. Mind you, the trailer for the original Ghostbusters is surprisingly naff too, so who knows?

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Despite the fact she nearly wrecks the Falcon on takeoff, and states explicitly she's flown before just not outside the atmosphere... not necessarily the best pilot ever but she has reasons to know how to fly.

Reasons that are never explained in the movie, and after that rough takeoff she's flying the thing like an ace.

Again, I know it's explained WHY she's so good at flying, but that was in the book. In the movie she actually states that she had no idea how she flew like that.

She knows one part that was added into the Falcon, and companion material also explains she used to sneak aboard the ship at night and putter around it.

I'll give you that, though why they insist on putting stuff that's THIS need to know in the supplementary stuff is beyond me. Say what you will about Lucas, at least you didn't need the books to figure out what the hell was going on.

She fails at first, and also there's hints that she has had training in canon companion material. The movie poorly explains that though. But still... she fails at first.

And then she pulls it off. Still doesn't change the fact it took Luke three movies to pull that off.

Also, Rey was left on that desert planet as a VERY young girl. Know what Jedi Younglings her age were doing as training? Blocking blaster bolts.

Again the whole idea she has more than likely had some training in force usage and has shown to be competent in melee combat. Ren is also hurting from a bowcaster shot, a shot mind you that has been shown to devastate everyone else who's been hit by it.

Again, Young Jedi were never seen doing anything more complex than blocking blasters. Honestly, would YOU want mischievous little kids running around with Telekinesis and mind tricks? That's just asking for problems!

That said, The Clone Wars cartoon DID show even younger kids capable of using Telekinesis, so I kinda have to give you this one.

However, have you ever been trained in using a heavier weapon and then suddenly switched to a lighter one and done well with it? Cause that's what Rey did. She switched from a staff to a weapon that is almost completely made of light. That'd be like a guy who trained with a Claymore switching to a Rapier and still being expected to kick ass.

She has flaws, she gets captured, she screws up trying to help the party escape the freighter and lets loose the carnivorous life forms Han had aboard the ship by accident. See also the almost crashing of the Falcon. Willful ignorance of the facts does not support your assertions.

Her flaws end up saving the day with Han's shuttle, and if she hadn't been captured Finn would've most likely left well before the resistance attempted to blow up the Starkiller, which most likely would've gone a lot worse without him. And again, after that rough takeoff, she then flew the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy like a damn pro.

Not to mention she was well into rescuing herself when she met up with Finn and Han in the Starkiller base. Luke in his first movie was constantly getting his ass saved by others, even with his big moment with the Death Star.

Not to mention that everyone who meets Rey instantly likes her, while Luke was constantly getting his chops busted by Han in the first movie. (Though I'll forgive the villains on this if only because Strong in the Force = Powerful ally if turned.)

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

I've noticed the "sexism" defence popping up a lot when any female characters are criticised.

Just look at the Ghostbusters remake - they've basically won no matter what they do - if people like it then good for them, if they don't then it's clearly because of sexism, and nothing to do with the film itself.


Personally I think the Luke = Rey comparison of mary-sue ness is a flawed one, Luke spent 3 films growing into his powers - by the end of IV he could just about get a torpedo down an exhaust (on the 2nd attempt), by the end of Empire he'd had his hand cut off after being brutally outmatched by a dark lord of the sith (after spending the film failing in nearly every task Yoda set him), finally, at the end of Jedi he was truly complete...

Rey needs to be the best pilot ever? Done.
Rey needs to know how to completely repair and optimise a ship? Happy days.
Rey needs to mind-trick someone? Easy-peezy lemon-sqeezy.
Rey needs to beat a powerful Knight of Ren(?!) at both summoning lightsaber then lightsaber combat itself? Not a drama.

The girl has no flaws. Luke had flaws.

I booted up Episode 7 just to recheck (And because I like the movie and I need something to watch while I peel price tags off my mother's birthday gifts and pack them up).

Rey is the 'best' pilot - She nearly pastes herself twice, spends a quarter of their fight skipping the Falcon off sand dunes, makes two semi-impressive turns that the TIE fighters (At least the ones still alive when she makes them) follow easily, then purposefully stalls out allowing Finn to get a shot off. That's it. 'Best' pilot is an absurd stretch. She's, at best, roughly on par with Luke Skywalker, only with an actual reason to be semi-skilled (It's mentioned in movie she's flown before, which is one better then Luke ever gets, outside of EU novels that mention he'd been in a simulator).

Rey knows how to completely repair and optimize a ship - She fixes one system (The hyper drive motivator) twice. Wow.

Rey mind tricks storm troopers with ease - It takes her three tries to get a rather pissed off stormtrooper to do anything. While this is one thing that kind of weirded me out, it's not like she Obi-Wan'd the guy without effort.

Rey beats the head of the Knights of Ren with ease - Rey gets knocked out by Kylo twice. She gets the lightsaber due to fate, flails around for a couple of minutes while she runs from Ben Jr, and then only turns the tables because he's dropped his guard, he's tired, and he's been both stabbed by a lightsaber and gut shot by the in-universe version of an anti-material rifle. The movie practically bends over backwards to give her the advantages she needs to win, even spending half the movie setting the bowcaster shot up.

But sure, easy peezy.

 

[elvor0]

Willful ignorance of the facts does not support your assertions.

I do feel she that her flaws and capabilities are not well balanced though. She's far more capable than is reasonable or even makes sense given her character, given what the /movie/ shows us. Companion material shouldn't be necessary for the character to work in her primary media form. The movie makes zero allusion to her being force trained prior to now, nor sneaking around the falcon. She definitely has flaws, but she never really has to over come anything, or has any form of character arc or growth, she just kind of is good at all these things in a really short space of time without any justification for it. Ren having being quite badly wounded is a fair justification for why she could beat him, but its not really showcased that well in the movie, it never really feels like his wounds are impeding him, and he's /still/ been trained in the use of the weapon, wheras Rey has not.

Even with melee training, are light sabers not supposed to be weapons that are very and un-wieldly and require Jedi training to utilize? It's not just physical skill that you need; a lightsaber is supposed to be like wielding a great sword without proper force training, yet Rey handles it better than Luke does at the end of ROTJ, where his training has enabled allowed him to wield the sword better due to his improved physical and force capabilities. Finns use of it is slightly less graceful.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Now, that's not what I think. I think TFA was just poorly written and Rey would've been just as bland had she been male, although it's entirely possible the writer did have a bit of a hard on for Rey as he was writing her, but by no means do I think it was for political or social reasons, writer was just lazy, maybe a bit too excitable.

I don't think TFA is particularly poorly written. I don't think it should be winning any Oscars for screenwriting, either, but I don't see overt or damaging problems that I'd attribute to "poor writing". The film's biggest problem is lack of screen time and an abundance of characters. It's a very familiar problem, because it's a problem that haunted the early seasons of Game of Thrones, before "poor writing" grabbed the reins and sent it thundering into absurdity. When the film DOES have time to slow down/breathe, it actually has some very nice moments. There's also some clever dialogue and some nice rapport building between characters, particularly involving Finn.

Which is not to say all lines or plot elements work beautifully, they don't. I simply feel the characterization problems...and there are characterization problems (most prominently with Poe, but also with Finn and Rey...Kylo Ren comes out of the film the most intact and fully realized, likely due to him not having to share a lot of screen time)...are down to "lack of time" and an overstuffed narrative, and not the result of a tin ear for dialogue or an inability to write relatable humans.

The movie makes zero allusion to her being force trained prior to now, nor sneaking around the falcon.

The film shows her being left, while wearing clothing looking suspiciously like that worn by young Padawans, in the care of Unkarr Plutt, who presently owns the Falcon. The film also shows her having a series of cascading visions/flashbacks upon touching Skywalker's saber. Obi-Wan speaks to her. It's intimated she's part of a legacy. There are a ton of contextual clues. I actually take mild umbrage at the assertion that there are "zero allusions" because the film doesn't exposition dump everything the audience needs in the opening crawl. Audiences are not THAT stupid.

She definitely has flaws, but she never really has to over come anything, or has any form of character arc or growth, she just kind of is good at all these things in a really short space of time without any justification for it. Ren having being quite badly wounded is a fair justification for why she could beat him, but its not really showcased that well in the movie, it never really feels like his wounds are impeding him, and he's /still/ been trained in the use of the weapon, wheras Rey has not.

It's a three film series, it stands to reason everyone's arc will be three films long.

As to Ren...I remember it coming up in previous discussions that the film did not adequately showcase his injury, so I paid more attention this most recent watch. The most certainly did. The setup for the bowcaster seemed PAINFULLY obvious this time, to the point of being gratuitous. He doubles over quite spectacularly when shot. He's pounding the blood out and the camera zooms in for a "look, blood!" moment. He looks positively ashen faced, and is sweating copiously. He's also acting borderline unhinged. His fighting style, although not previously established, is ragged. I'm genuinely uncertain as to how much MORE they could provide in terms of clues without it being completely ludicrous.

...yet Rey handles it better than Luke does at the end of ROTJ, where his training has enabled allowed him to wield the sword better due to his improved physical and force capabilities. Finns use of it is slightly less graceful.

Also untrue. She handles it very awkwardly, and they actually took pains to make sure she stabbed with it like it was a staff, reflecting her prior experience with melee combat. Her only real moment of excellence comes after she "touches the Force", which is very much an echo of Episode IV, where Obi-Wan instructs Luke to reach out with the force and he blocks two laser beams without being able to see. Luke had been practicing for the sum total of about 20 seconds of screen time at that juncture. It's extraordinarily in keeping with Star Wars film canon that powerful Force sensitives can do crazy shit whether they've been properly trained or not. The majority of Luke's training had to do with him mastering his feelings and dealing with his anger/fear/doubt. Do we see him doing elaborate lightsaber forms in the swamp? Nope. Do we see him doing Force pull/push reps? Nope. Closest we come is him lifting a rock (which Yoda feels sufficiently prepares him to lift a fucking X-Wing) and doing some cardio with a Frog on his back.

Rey's cardio is probably ok.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Willful ignorance of the facts does not support your assertions.

I do feel she that her flaws and capabilities are not well balanced though. She's far more capable than is reasonable or even makes sense given her character, given what the /movie/ shows us. Companion material shouldn't be necessary for the character to work in her primary media form. The movie makes zero allusion to her being force trained prior to now, nor sneaking around the falcon. She definitely has flaws, but she never really has to over come anything, or has any form of character arc or growth, she just kind of is good at all these things in a really short space of time without any justification for it. Ren having being quite badly wounded is a fair justification for why she could beat him, but its not really showcased that well in the movie, it never really feels like his wounds are impeding him, and he's /still/ been trained in the use of the weapon, wheras Rey has not.

Even with melee training, are light sabers not supposed to be weapons that are very and un-wieldly and require Jedi training to utilize? It's not just physical skill that you need; a lightsaber is supposed to be like wielding a great sword without proper force training, yet Rey handles it better than Luke does at the end of ROTJ, where his training has enabled allowed him to wield the sword better due to his improved physical and force capabilities. Finns use of it is slightly less graceful.

To be fair, Non-Force users HAVE used lightsabers rather effectively before, with the most notable ones being Boba Fett and General Grevious. However, they were both shown to be worse with them than someone trained in the force. (Boba Fett attempted to take on Darth Vader with one and got stomped, while Grevious needed to use a number of programs and modifications to his cybernetics and STILL had to rely on sneak attacks and psychological combat to get an edge.)

Basically, the only non-force users who could use lightsabers effectively were already pretty badass to begin with, and they'd still lose in a straight up fight against trained Jedi or Sith.

Edit: Actually, I'm pretty certain that's part of the reason the TR-8R scene resonated so well. Fin is fighting a Stormtrooper who is using a lightsaber resistant weapon, and ends up getting his ass kicked by said trooper because Finn is using a weapon he has NO experience with, while TR-8R is using one he was trained in using.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Luke never was given any good reason for why all of a sudden he could dog fight with TIE fighters. "I used to bullseye Wamp Rats in my T-16" is not a good reason, as strafe running a target on the ground is very different from dogfighting TIE fighters, which are very freaking fast things, are in the air, and can shoot back at you.

Yeah...not exactly. The earlier T-16 comment? It was said in the expanded material that the T-16 was used as a training vehicle due to having a similar control scheme to the X-Wing. I'm pretty sure that's Lucas explaining that the T-16 was a good explanation for how Luke could dog fight. Except it doesn't, see my earlier point about Wamp Rats =/= TIE fighter.

This guy in particular was very weak minded. It was established, in movie, that the soldiers of the First Order have had all of the individuality and free will stripped away. Finn not directly obeying orders to massacre civilians was a sign that something was wrong with his conditioning.

They were blocking blaster bolts for the three minutes we saw them. I think it's a safe bet to make that they did more than block blaster bolts for 8 hours a day.

So they can't be trusted with telekinesis but they can be trusted with a sword that can easily hack of limbs and heads? I think a lot of responsibility is expected from these kids.

She was getting her ass kicked initially, and she eventually beat a badly wounded, exhausted, emotionally compromised man who was using a defective weapon and hadn't completed his training. Seriously, beating Kylo Ren isn't a very impressive feat.

And they also get Han killed. If she had never gotten captured, Finn wouldn't have gone looking for her, Han wouldn't have encountered Ben, and he wouldn't have gotten killed. Rey got Han Solo killed.

Except she really didn't have much of a plan to get off Starkiller base. She still needed help.

Yeah I don't recall her and Finn getting along swimmingly, and that Han was a little apprehensive at first.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And they also get Han killed. If she had never gotten captured, Finn wouldn't have gone looking for her, Han wouldn't have encountered Ben, and he wouldn't have gotten killed. Rey got Han Solo killed.

She didn't really. Han was there to get the shields down. Rescuing Rey was a secondary consideration. He's not too happy with Finn when he finds out Finn has the opposite set of priorities.

You're correct that she needed help, and she does indeed get rescued (by Chewbacca), but there's no real correlation between "save Rey" and Han dying. Han would have ended up running into Ben one way or the other, because Ben sensed him and came looking.