Am I simply thick for not liking Eve Online?

[Takatchi]

EVE, to me, is one of those MMORPGs you play when you have absolutely no time in the world to play an MMORPG, and you enjoy spaceships. Right now, I have a 14 day trial account that's just training skills. I used a skill planner to make up a list of skills I need to log in and tell the game to train for me while I'm away. I know exactly when X skill will finish, and know that Y skill is going to go into training next when I log in. I'm not running missions or mining or doing anything at all except training my skills. If I were absolutely desperate for money, I could pay RL money to purchase an in-game timecard that I would then sell for in-game money, more than I could make in the amount of time that timecard would add to my account.

EVE has a learning curve bordering on inverted. It's as if it actually wants you to fail at it, and in a way it's an admirable quality; just sitting in the rookie channel and hearing no less than two dozen people over the course of two hours ask questions like "HOW DO GET NEW SHIP??" or "WHERE DO I GET (object for newbie mission that is clearly outlined in the newbie mission)??" is hillarious, because I know these idiots will probably quit after their first day and free up valuable space in...well, space. It really takes a certain kind of player to get into and truly progress in the game, and it does require an almost unfair amount of homework out-of-game to get the hang of. One of the unfortunate parts of the EVE experience is that it depends almost entirely on other players. You could get into the game, meet a bunch of people in the newbie corporation that everyone is a part of by default, have some engaging conversation, join up for some missions or maybe some huge mining runs. On the flip side, you could run into the screaming retards that have been playing the game for years only to hang around newbie areas to blow you up using cheap ships they can likely manufacture on any of their 12 alts. These people will grief you, harass you, and destroy your stuff. You can go to another system, but even in the "high security" of the Empire-protected space you're not safe from anything, and the only way to be absolutely sure you're not going to get blown up is to never, ever log in.

Harsh-sounding, I know, but the PVE/PVP sandbox that EVE provides is interesting and in-depth; for those who can get into it, it's fun. I play in short bursts, and when I do, I typically find myself just training more skills. For all its flaws I'd say EVE is a good enough MMO in that you can not play it for months at a time, and still be just as good as those guys who play every day...so long as you have RL money to trade for in-game money to keep your equipment bought up to your skill level.

 

[Tranka Verrane]

If I were absolutely desperate for money, I could pay RL money to purchase an in-game timecard that I would then sell for in-game money, more than I could make in the amount of time that timecard would add to my account.

Just to clarify this, I assume you are talking about within the trial period. I use ingame money to buy timecodes for Eve, making it self financing, as does the majority of my corp, and I have done for quite some time. One of the selling points of Eve for me is that it is essentially free for me to play.

Technically it is even possible to make the money to buy a gtc within the trial period, if you are a math whizz, by simply sitting in a station and trading. I do know people have done it,

 

[Takatchi]

If I were absolutely desperate for money, I could pay RL money to purchase an in-game timecard that I would then sell for in-game money, more than I could make in the amount of time that timecard would add to my account.

Just to clarify this, I assume you are talking about within the trial period. I use ingame money to buy timecodes for Eve, making it self financing, as does the majority of my corp, and I have done for quite some time. One of the selling points of Eve for me is that it is essentially free for me to play.

Technically it is even possible to make the money to buy a gtc within the trial period, if you are a math whizz, by simply sitting in a station and trading. I do know people have done it,

By and large the new player settling into EVE for the first time will not make enough money to play via in-game investment. All of the people who can say "I play by ISK" will have several things in common. Overall, they'll be at least a couple months old, largely because they'll have trained additional skills beyond what you'll have time for in 14 days. While it's possible, within 14 days, to simply buy up some simple materials and trade them for more money than you spent, most people who will start their 14 day trial will not have an understanding of the other sources EVE Online practically requires to play; they probably won't know how to check mineral quotes across multiple systems on third-party websites, let alone how to navigate to a lot of these systems. And since they're on trial accounts they can't train for industrial ships to haul lots of it!

In addition, people who say that it's easy to play using in-game money neglect to mention that this is in their uber-ratting Raven setup, running level 4 agent missions. This requires 1) months of time investment in order to get the skills to equip an uber-ratting Battleship that can handle level 4 missions on its own, 2) running less-rewarding, more annoying lesser missions in order to make the money to buy the uber-ratting Battleship that can handle level 4 missions on its own, and 3) running less-rewarding, more annoying missions for the same agent/faction over and over again, for hours every day practically every day, to work up the reputation necessary to get access to level 4 missions to do in your uber-ratting Battleship.

So, while it is possible to play by in-game money alone, I will never believe that anyone who does not play EVE Online as a second job, in addition to having multiple previous accounts or very rich friends, can make the kind of money to do so within 14 days.

 

[Tranka Verrane]

OK I fail at forum posting 101, should have previewed. Half the end of my post is missing somehow. It should read:

Just to clarify this, I assume you are talking about within the trial period. I use ingame money to buy timecodes for Eve, making it self financing, as does the majority of my corp, and I have done for quite some time. One of the selling points of Eve for me is that it is essentially free for me to play.

Technically it is even possible to make the money to buy a gtc within the trial period, if you are a math whizz, by simply sitting in a station and trading. I do know people have done it, but it's certainly not the easy way to do it. If you have seriously low resources it is a way to get into the game via the back door, though, it just requires a few dry runs with other trials to get the hang of it. Normally gtc buying users have been in the game a good few months: I switched over after buying two gtc with real money first, which put me at just under seven months old. Knowing what i do now, and with the gameplay changes since, that can be done earlier, but realistically I think you're still looking at at least 3 months ingame first.

 

[Takatchi]

Right, that's more along the lines of what I was getting at. The best way to achieve success in EVE is through sheer dumb determination, to plow through all that reading material and experience first-hand what to do; whether you simply restart multiple accounts or struggle ahead on one single account, probably doing poorly for most of your career until you finally have enough skill points to succeed through statistics.

Or, you know what you're doing right from the onset, and go for it. Those're really the only two options EVE presents, other than quitting.

 

[Monstrum]

The skill training system in EVE will keep me away forever. Seriously, waiting is never fun. Realism should only be used as a way to increase the player's immersion, and simply waiting for time to pass does the opposite, at least for me. Give me a challenge, reward me for completing it, and I will be entertained. I'm not entertained by rewards given me for being a long time faithful paying customer.

 

[Tibike77]

Well, let's put it this way : to become somewhat effective, you only need L2 and L3 skills, and all levels you need above are just the higher-level prerequisites for other skills.
You also start with something akin to up to one month's training at your starter attributes, depending on attributes and school chosen.
You can become useful in a matter of days (on frigates or even some cruisers), and you can start (if you know what to pick) being effective in battlecruisers by the time your trial is over (you can't train for battlecruisers on a trial anyway, it won't let you).

Now, bringing most relevant skills for something to L4 might take another month or two, tops.
But bringing all relevant skills to L5 will take another 6 to 9 months... for a mere 3-7% extra effectiveness.

So, no idea what you're trying to say, but the system is wonderfully balanced : you get the really effective levels damned fast, but if you want to specialize, yes, it does take a really long time.
Not only that, but by the time you're perfectly specialized in everything you could for a certain ship, you could have become competent in a LOT of other ships... and your effectiveness advantage is minimal (even if, indeed, in 1-vs-1 PvP situations that 3% advantage is usually the difference between life and death... however, 1-vs-1 PvP rarely ever happens).


You want a challenge ? Run higher level missions with a smaller ship with lesser gear.
It can be done, but it is a challenge.
Or, start PvPing. Sure, in the early days, you will die more than you kill, but PLAYER skill (not character skill) plays a huge role in PvP victory-vs-defeat balance. And no, it's not "skill" in the sense of clicking fast, it's about how you fit your ship to take advantage of its strengths while exploiting the weaknesses of your target, knowing when to fight and when to run and so on and so forth.
Like they say, if you find yourself in a FAIR fight, you failed
Picking the fights you know you can win is just as important, or probably more important than character skills or ship fiting knowledge.

 

[Monstrum]

So, no idea what you're trying to say, but the system is wonderfully balanced : you get the really effective levels damned fast, but if you want to specialize, yes, it does take a really long time.

What I'm trying to say is that as far as I'm concerned, rewards should only be given when the player accomplishes something. Time spent owning an account should not in itself give any benefits. I'm not going to wait for my character to aquire the skills he need for blasting his way through space in his cool ship. So I'm not going to play EVE.

To be fair, maybe I should say that there are lots of annoying issues with the other MMOG:s that I have tried as well, so I don't play them either. I just think that EVE is more absurd than the others when it comes to skills.

 

[mfischetti]

The skill training system in EVE will keep me away forever. Seriously, waiting is never fun. Realism should only be used as a way to increase the player's immersion, and simply waiting for time to pass does the opposite, at least for me. Give me a challenge, reward me for completing it, and I will be entertained. I'm not entertained by rewards given me for being a long time faithful paying customer.

The real time training system is what makes eve great, it ensures that you dont have people starting 12 alts and grinding them out with missions and quests and having an overflow of people who can fly titans ( largest ships in game ) it keeps the plaing field level, it ensures that no one can become super poerful without actually dedicating the time for it. Also not for nothing but lower level players in EVE can do a heck of a lot more to higher level players then they could in WoW, if you took 5 people who were level 20 and put them against a level 70 the level 70 would decimate them, if you take 5 new eve players with about a months worth of training time and put them against a player who has been playing for years, I guarentee they would be able to kill him, NOBODY is invincible in eve.

 

[Robert0288]

First I gotta give a wave to mfischetti.

People ITT are right, the eve learning curve is unlike anything I've seen in other games. I've been playing off and on since before alot of the new fangled stuff and I'm still learning different aspects. For a new player Its more of a shear vertical wall than a curve.

Above all else eve is an extremly social game, to fully experiance it you have to move out and start engaging (either by talking or killing) other players.

and its true 2 day old players can kill highly skilled BS pilots, and I know because i've been on both sides of the equation.

 

[s3cur1tr0n]

ive actually demod eve and got confused early on. Ive been hankerin for space combat.

 

[Credge]

People who are fanatical WoW players (and by this I mean generic, easy to play rpg's) are not going to hang around on EvE, or find it enjoyable.

Eh? I didn't find anything difficult in Eve, I just found it time consuming. People often confuse difficulty with time consuming and it's understandable. If it takes you 4 hours to get a few units of money, that's not difficulty.

The game isn't complex either, it's simply time consuming. Having to wait for your character to research a new ability so you can upgrade your ship is just a time sink. It doesn't take any skill to go walk your dog and do things besides playing the game to learn a new skill.

PVP is probably the only thing in the game that revolves around skill, but that usually revolves around who has the better ship for the scenario or whoever knows how to counter what the other person has. That's similar to just about every MMO out there and, coincidentally, takes about as much skill as any other MMO.

I like difficult games, but nothing I saw in EVE offered me this. I saw, and experienced, nothing but a time sink that allowed me to do things besides play the game. I failed to see the point of devoting time to the game because all I had to do was get X money and then start researching Y for a new ship. Rinse and repeat until I have everything I wanted and then... well, that's about it. I could protect some ships mining with my org or I could be the one mining, or I could try to kill people who are mining. Or, if I was lucky, I could get into some mass PVP. But... can't I do that in any other game?

To me, EVE was like MAC. People that use MACs think that they are the best thing on the planet and attempt to belittle those who use anything else while thinking they are part of some exclusive club.

Again, though, EVE is anything but hard, challenging, or difficult. In fact, the term RPG and difficult don't really go hand in hand. All there is to the RPG is time and understanding of core mechanics. Once you have these two things, you can be the master of any RPG.

Oh, yeah, I also thought EVE was very showy. It's a gorgeous game, but I found it lacked little to no actual content. It lacked a real engaging element. Nothing really made me want to play the game. In fact, the game made me not want to play it. I constantly thought to myself "Well... I could go mine some more of this asteroid field for a while... but I already have the cash needed for the upgrade I need and I'm about 14 hours from getting it. I could risk losing my ship for some extra cash or I could just not play... hmm..."

That's another thing. The risk/reward factor in EVE was all screwy. Often places had low risk and high reward while others had high risk low reward. Did not enjoy.

All in all, the game would be fine if there was more to do. I'm sure by now there's tons to do, but it's a bit late. Playing catch up would consist of me paying a monthly fee for a game I'd play once a week until I was up to par with everyone else, which would probably be several months. No thanks. Time sink/=/difficulty.

 

[kamstew]

it needs a no subscription console port. and make it so everytime i actualy try to fight pvp i dont get pod killed by the police evben though im in a low sec area

 

[phlewidthoughts]

been playing eve for around 2 yrs, currently taking a break.

The begining as others have said was a killer learning curve.

like everything (games, life, work, icecream, whatever) there are great things and some really lame things about eve.

I guess its up to the player to bring as much ingenuity as they want to get out of eve.

what i like about eve is there are so many different ways to play it, i have mates that only pvp, others who only play the stock market, some who just enjoy mining or mission running and others who only play for giant alliance fleet battle with supper capital ships, there are some that enjoy manipulating politics as thousands of people live, build and fight over large areas of space. and a few lovable rogues that will steal anything that isnt nailed down and would kick puppies if there were any ingame

It is a game were nothing interesting may happen for weeks and within 5 seconds everything can happen.

some of the long grind processes, ive started the grind and walked away from the keyboard for 20minutes to do some house work, come back and repeat, most relaxing sometimes.

what instsantly made mision grind and mineing grind become intolerable to me was the heart pounding experience of my first intentional pvp where i lost 2months of hard work in under 5 seconds to a smaller ship.(maybe i havent played that many games, but i dont recall many if any games that made my heart thump in my chest)after that encounter and my first kill it became a pirates life for me

Somehow the idea of pvp where no one stands to lose anything when killed or gain when won... well frankly sounds kinda boring, where is the incentive to win? whats the incentive not to lose? I guess the emotional investment is also part of what makes it addictive.

The click and everything gets done for you i dont believe, ive watched friends get attacked outnumbered 6-1 in the same ship types and not only survive but beat all of them, then again ive also seen often the reverse.

Im not intelligent enough / dont care enough to play by Isk (earning enough ingame money to pay for subscription) but i think its a great idea as it helps keep players who can contribute to the game / community of eve.

I agree with previous posts that being involed with the comunity really makes eve fun. see story below (personally without the people/community i would probably never play eve again),


(WARNING if very self indulgent, waffling and not to the point story telling offends dont continue).

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There is a saying a famous Australian uses quite a bit, never let the truth get in the way of a good yarn(story)

my favorite memories was when our pvp pirate corp (around 20-25 people)(which was full of great guys and girls from around the world who enjoyed killing anything that moved, if it didnt move we pushed it)

well we joined an alliance which only accepted other like minded pvp corps (our alliance had mebe 300-500 "active" people). so with our new bloodthirsty friends the alliance decided to go find the biggest alliance nearby that we could pick a fight with, due to our leaders (which as has been said before in this thread really were playing a giant RTS with people) managed to escalate the war to a level we were looking for, 7 alliances against 1.
listening to, coordinating or being apart of 300 vs 300 people in a battle that can be won or lost in under 2 minutes is an amazing experience. being out numbered 3 to 1 in a battle and winning was fantastic.

We had an great time one day when an enemy titan pilot was betrayed by one of his alliance mates, when he was caught international phone calls were made to corp leaders mobile phones to log in, rally their troops to join in the kill. (the uniqueness of this kill is, since the game first started sometime around 2003 till mid 2008 when this occurred, this was the 7th or 8th titan ever killed in the games history)

( maybe we really worried/annoyed some people because it ended up 14 alliances [anywhere from 3000 - 5000 people] with mutual protection pact working together to turff us and our 2 ally's [combined around 600-800 people] into dust) (yeah yeah im fudging numbers so we sounded more uber, what ever) they were great days, we got our butts kick so hard, after we bled them good

one thing i love about eve is brought entirely by players ingenuity, stealing billions of
isk (which took many people months to amass or some lame person who used real money to buy it), backstabbing, double crossing, to fake out, catch and kill some of the largest, most expensive, most protected and guarded ships. and knowing that somewhere out there in the world some unlucky sod is staring at his screen thinking "....bugger...." as he watches months of effort just disappear in a pretty flash of colours. I wonder what happened to me to enjoy other peoples pain so much? maybe because in real life im normally very nice to everyone even if they are evil dumb sods.


laters

 

[Imitation Saccharin]

Eve Online's 3 greatest flaws are it's training system, the free-for-all, and the Devs. Unless you enjoy being a dick, ganking is the bane of true exploration and world building. Unless you multi-account or buy seasoned accounts, you will NEVER reach the 70-esque stage. Finally the system itself is rigged as the Devs show favoritism to BoB.

I've no idea how people keep playing it.

 

[Theo Samaritan]

Finally the system itself is rigged as the Devs show favoritism to BoB.

I wish people would stop saying this. One dev fucked up and then suddenly they are all in the alliances pocket.

For the record, there are more devs in goonswarm than BoB currently, and it was the same back with the T20 incident.

it needs a no subscription console port. and make it so everytime i actualy try to fight pvp i dont get pod killed by the police evben though im in a low sec area

Or you can not shoot people infront of the local defence sentries, which are in every lowsec system =)

Just docking my spaceship took minutes instead of seconds.

This is sommthing I have to pick on. On average, docking takes seconds. However, due to the love of the Caldari race from older players creating an alt, as well as the stupidly packed market systems mean that the entire Caldari region of the Forge is over filled and lagged to hell, thus giving new players a hard time.

CCP can't stop people gravitating to caldari space for trade - Jita is the second system to become a massive lagfilled tradehub after they tried killing the old one. People just move. However with the current server architecture being as it is, it does mean the entire region suffers. Unfortunatly, that is the same region all Caldari players start in (except for one or two lucky ones in the Citadel) and a lot of new players don't travel further than five or six jumps in their first week without the ushering of an older player.

And as the forge is about twenty jumps wide if you go the direct route, you can see the problem. Unfortunatly people like myself can't pick up every new player to help them past this.

As for the rest of your points I have to agree to most of them. The UI is clunky, things are always complicated to do to begin with (although I find them quite simple once you get your head around it) and grinding for isk is very much a timesink. But for depth? Background Depth is made by the players and the history they create. Playing depth? If I could list every little nuance of the tactics behind an armor tank I would break this forum.

In EVE, time makes a player with good skills, experience makes a good player. And if you want to be really good you really have to dig deep into the tactics and depth of the various fits and so on.

I am not devaluing your comments because I feel everyone has a differing opinion and as long as it is well informed (which you have been) it is just as valid as any other opinion.

 

[Imitation Saccharin]

I wish people would stop saying this. One dev fucked up and then suddenly they are all in the alliances pocket.

It's what didn't happen to that Dev that's of interest.
The assurance that the game is not unwinnable is critical for me to be willing to keep playing. It's unfair, but I knew that getting in.

 

[PhoenixFlame]

To answer the question - no, I don't think you're thick headed. You just like a different kind of game.

EVE has a niche in the MMO players' pool, as a game that has real consequences for losing, as well as a thriving economy. But its aspects aren't for everyone. It has a dedicated fanbase of players that like the kind of gameplay that EVE has to offer.

As an MMO player myself, I'm not really into EVE, as I don't have much time to play and don't particularly like the idea of losing months worth of work in a skirmish. But a lot of people do like it, and EVE's longevity says something about that.