Amercian arrested for Child Porn by Canadian customs who found manga on his computer.

[bob1052]

Do we really want to defend someone with drawings like that

Freedom of speech is important, but is it really that important? Not all expression is worthy of protection, this is an example of that.

In what way is Freedom of speech related in any way to this?

Read the OP

It's freedom of expression, i.e. the right of him to own that artwork/the right of whoever drew it to draw it

You know, censorship of "art" and all that

Censorship of something deemed illegal is not related to the censorship of art.

Spoiler: Everything in this is fake, don't throw a shit storm

If I want to walk down to my local coffee shop and shoot everyone because its my artistic expression the government shouldn't censor it (stop me)?

 

[4173]

I think this just brings the question of "what is porn"?

I also have to ask: What did he get caught with and how old those the person(s) look in whatever manga he had?

If he got stopped for Ranma 1/2 or High School of the Dead then I call bull, but if he got caught with something that depicts what are clearly under-aged looking characters (aka no reasonable human being could say they look anything close 18 or older) then I have no sympothy for him.

If you visit Ms. Rosy Palmer while watching kids you need to be kept in jail where you wouldn't ruin anyone's lives.

Shit, I forgot to ask for consent in my fantasy last night. Better lock me up, I might rape someone.

 

[TCPirate]

It's a tough one... On one hand, they are JUST drawings and there is no intent to cause harm to anybody and no body is harmed.

On the other, it has been known to be a starting point for paedophiles. Not hentai, necessarily, but eventually the fake images will no longer satisfy the person's urges and can lead to real paedophilia.

I'm not sure if this source is 100% but this is what I found.

"Under federal law (18 U.S.C. §2256), child pornography1 is defined as any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct..."
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?PageId=1504

Then again this is only american law. I'm not sure if Canadian laws are the same. And it also doesn't state if hand drawn images count.
But I would recommend this guy get counselling.

P.s. please note there is a difference between Hentai and Manga.
If you mean Hentai then it is Anime/Manga styled pornography.
If you mean Manga then it's a merely a means on entertainment and should not be constrewed as pornography in any way.

 

[AngryMongoose]

If there are no victims for an activity, then it isn't a crime. End of discussion.

But what about the indignant feelings of contempt held by the respectable masses? What is life imprisonment for one man compared with mild offence to millions of innocent Daily Mail readers?

Yeah, I couldn't get through that without spitting.

Anyway, I've linked it before, but I don't think there are any situations where monkey dust ISN'T appropriate.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I want to see just what kind of manga he had on his computer. 'Cause if it wasn't even sexually explicit, never mind involving minors, I'd have to ask WTF???

 

[t3h br0th3r]

If I want to walk down to my local coffee shop and shoot everyone because its my artistic expression the government shouldn't censor it (stop me)?

hyperbole:
1.obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as ?to wait an eternity.?
3. not helpful in discussions of ethics

The difficult thing about this kind of disicussion isn't defining porn (everyone over tha ge 12 knows what that is) but defining what is art, what is not art, and if something known and agreed to be art is worth protecting.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Well, if the Comic book legal defence fund wants to help this man, all power to them. I just cannot find myself in support of this man

I don't know how I feel on this. On the one hand, if it is drawings, it harms no one. However, if you have that thought on your mind, might it lead you to do things with actual children?

One thing I am sure is that it would be hard to claim that this is art. As a friend of mine once put it:

It?s intent. I?m an artist too, and the difference is that I draw stuff for the sake of art. A picture of a ninja stabbing a guy (for example) isn?t a blueprint for my future endeavors, it?s a picture of a ninja doing what ninjas do. (Name ommited), you draw pictures to jerk off and that?s wrong bro. You don?t walk into the museum, take a look at Picasso?s ?Des Mademoiselles D?Avignon?, pull down your pants and play with your paintbrush. Why? Because intent is half of art, and the greats did what they did to express emotion, stories, real life, the abstract, etc. There intent was never to get some guy in his basement to have a hard on. You intended for people to get off to your drawings and that?s the difference.

And then he later stated

None the less, jerk off drawings are not art

And I agree with this idea.

 

[bob1052]

If I want to walk down to my local coffee shop and shoot everyone because its my artistic expression the government shouldn't censor it (stop me)?

hyperbole:
1.obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as ?to wait an eternity.?
3. not helpful in discussions of ethics

The difficult thing about this kind of disicussion isn't defining porn (everyone over tha ge 12 knows what that is) but defining what is art, what is not art, and if something known and agreed to be art is worth protecting.

You are trying to claim that something that was deemed illegal is art and therefore shouldn't be deemed illegal.

Now you are drawing imaginary lines in the sand so that your reasoning works and mine doesn't when I do the exact same thing as you in a different magnitude.

Not to mention you can't even disprove my horribly weak counterpoint but instead you create a fake dictionary definition instead, its actually quite hilarious how bad you are at back and forth discussions.

 

[TCPirate]

The difficult thing about this kind of disicussion isn't defining porn (everyone over the age 12 knows what that is) but defining what is art, what is not art, and if something known and agreed to be art is worth protecting.

I have to say, I agree. If you look at something like The Statue Of David, It's considered art. This guy had, what I believe to be, a form of Far Eastern art. Unless the image is displaying erotic scenes, I wouldn't really consider it pornographic. But there are many Ancient Greek art works that do display erotic scenes.

 

[cjbos81]

This is why I never leave America; fear of being prosecuted for child pornography.

 

[electric_warrior]

Yes it is. From the people who draw offensive rule 34 images on the various chans, to the asshole's who protest soldiers funerals for no reason, to the guys who made Duke Nukem Forever, to the people who think Hitler had some good ideas. Either it's all ok or none of it is. If you really want free speech then you have to be willing to pay the price of letting people act like complete and utter twats if they so choose. Trust me, it's a very small price to pay. I may not agree with your views but I would gladly stand shoulder to shoulder with you to defend your right to be a massive tool.

While Freedom of Speech isn't exactly related to this, I have to say with that attitude, you get nowhere. If you offer something like that, you better goddamn have it for everything. There's no such thing as 'Freedom of Speech for things we like, but not for things we don't like!'. That's not it at all.

I accept that its important and that, ideally, all forms of expression should be protected, but this isn't an ideal world. We need to pick our battles. When people are having far more fundamental rights infringed the world over, and forms of expression less hideous than this are also being infringed, I think we should pick our battles. If you honestly have nothing more productive to be doing than defending someone with drawings of kids being abused, then fair enough, but I believe our efforts are better spent on more important things. It's like the argument that we should let the panda go extinct so we can spend more energy on an animal that stands a chance. When given the choice between saving a form of blood sucking leach, and saving the tiger, I think I'd rather save the tiger and leave the leach to its fate even i, ideally, I would save both. As such, anyone who spends too much time defending this bottom feeding shit would be better served doing something more important.

I suppose what I'm saying, to use a phrase one of yo used, is that I would stand shoulder to shoulder with you to defend your right to be a tool, but my time is probably better spent standing shoulder to shoulder with that man over there being tortured for speaking out against the government. Well, I would stand shoulder to shoulder with him, but instead of being put on trial, he's strapped to a chair with electrodes on his nads.

I'm (technically) a member of amnesty international, and a law student who has spent a few months studying the Human Rights Act (UK) so I personally think that someone like this hiding behind human rights cheapens the whole notion of human rights. Cheapens, but does not totally devalue.

I suppose all that was a bit much to expect people to infer from what I wrote, which I will get rig of so as to avoid dozens of similar responses.

 

[SiegeJack]

In Canada, Loli is defined as CP. This means that one can be arrested for this. It's happened several times, in fact. This is just another example of the "learn the laws of other places before you go, and don't bring porn with you" rule.

 

[electric_warrior]

Censorship of something deemed illegal is not related to the censorship of art.

Yes it is, its a form of expression that is deemed illegal. It is, therefore, an issue of freedom of expression.

 

[bob1052]

Who is victimized by this crime?

That "who is victimized" defense only works if you can provide conclusive evidence that no one is.

Asking an unanswerable question without proving anything to back it up is what every atheist who says "prove God exists" or every Christian who says "prove he doesn't" does.

 

[Dags90]

This is why I never leave America; fear of being prosecuted for child pornography.

What I want to know is, what led them to suspect he had CP in the first place? Did he have a pencil mustache or something?

 

[bob1052]

Censorship of something deemed illegal is not related to the censorship of art.

Yes it is, its a form of expression that is deemed illegal. It is, therefore, an issue of freedom of expression.

So how about what I wrote before:

Spoiler: Everything in this is fake, don't throw a shit storm

If I want to walk down to my local coffee shop and shoot everyone because its my artistic expression the government shouldn't censor it (stop me)?

Its a form of expression. Why can't I have freedom of expression?

 

[GrimHeaper]

I think this just brings the question of "what is porn"?

I also have to ask: What did he get caught with and how old those the person(s) look in whatever manga he had?

If he got stopped for Ranma 1/2 or High School of the Dead then I call bull, but if he got caught with something that depicts what are clearly under-aged looking characters (aka no reasonable human being could say they look anything close 18 or older) then I have no sympothy for him.

If you visit Ms. Rosy Palmer while watching kids you need to be kept in jail where you wouldn't ruin anyone's lives.

There is a hypothetical 5000 year old witch that looks 13 in a hentai.
Would it count as under-aged porn?

 

[emeraldrafael]

I hope we (the us) bring him back. Just because its going to be a sad day when htis guy is put in jail.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

Who is victimized by this crime?

The criminal apparently.

First off, since when does customs have the right to go through your laptop? I have never traveled out of the country but this is the first time I have heard of an agent doing this.

Happens all the time. Hell, coming back from certain parts of Asia with any electronic media will get you flagged for S&S.