Amercian arrested for Child Porn by Canadian customs who found manga on his computer.

[Loop Stricken]

I just hope they are not pursuing some innocuous manga title and actually have found something of the loli variety.

I hope it gets thrown out, loli or not!

It's not fucking REAL.

 

[SillyBear]

If there are no victims for an activity, then it isn't a crime. End of discussion.

You know, most incidents of speeding don't end up with any damage to property or person. Should only the few speeding incidents that result in death or injury be considered crimes?

It endangers the lives of others.

How does having manga depicting children in sexual acts put anyone in harm's way? What's so bad about it?

It's way, way more complicated than saying "these are fake children so it is all okay!". We just don't know if there truly is a victim or not. Japanese animated child pornography could be creating a dangerous environment for children. It could be sending out a dangerous rhetoric to its readers and influencing society in a thousand ways.

Or it could be completely harmless and only influences the fantasy world that it is set in.

We just don't know, and we can't take a side until we do.

I say we go the way of "Innocent until proven guilty" on this issue and not arrest him for it.

Sorry, but it doesn't sound like you really know what innocent until proven guilty means. I've seen you say this before in the thread and I thought the same then.

Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean that the police have to assume everyone is innocent unless they find amazing, indisputable evidence that shows he is guilty. If that was the case, most arrests would never happen.

The notion of innocent until proven guilty primarily effects the court system. The police have the right to suspect you due to a million things. Police can also arrest you without clear proof that you have actually done anything wrong.

It's the courts that can't. If this makes it to court, then innocent until proven guilty will really matter.

Let the police do their investigation and see what they come up with. Chances are this man did nothing wrong and will be let go virtually straight away. Or, they might know something none of us even know. Maybe they've been tracking this guy? Maybe they have proof he did something in the past that relates to him carrying this animated child porn? We just don't know, and any speculation you make only makes you look like a dick.

 

[William MacKay]

This is actually a really difficult thing for me to form a solid opinion on.

On the one hand actual child porn is clearly wrong, and people who posses it should be jailed for a long time.

heres something to help with your opinion confusion: if peadophiles are jailed, they have to be put in special secure wings of the prison, because some of the murderers have children. you do the maths. hint: they get attacked a lot.
OT: i think this was an overreaction IF the manga was just manga. if it was child porn in drawn form, no it wasnt an overreaction.

 

[zarix2311]

So what constitutes Child Porn in a Manga then? I mean, just being "underage" doesnt really count, and as far as im concerned, Manga do not contain Porn. Well Ecchi perhaps (accidental boobgrab, pantyshots etc) but thats about it and even those dont really contain children

I'd wish People would start seeing the difference between Hentai (Drawn Porn) and Manga (Drawn but not Porn) already. Else you just mention you read Manga to anyone and they think you are into some sick perversion or whatever.

I agree. There's a rather large chasm between the two and since I don't see that anyone has brought this question up yet I will (excuse me if someone has and I didn't notice), what the hell was he reading? If it's any normal Manga than it could be easily resolved, but if it WAS hentai than... could they still arrest him if it wasn't CP? (those two are actual questions I would like an answer to if anyone can)
You don't see a lot of hentai that has children in it (I am, of course, excluding some of the more disturbing hentai fetishes I have unfortunate knowledge of... *twitch*) But than again if it was something from one of those...MORE Japanese genres than he didn't think that through very well, but I SERIOUSLY doubt that was the case.

 

[NightlyNews]

If there are no victims for an activity, then it isn't a crime. End of discussion.

You know, most incidents of speeding don't end up with any damage to property or person. Should only the few speeding incidents that result in death or injury be considered crimes?

... They aren't crimes in a situation where no one gets hurt just ticket-able and fine-able offenses.

Also your comparing a situation that can hurt someone to one that has no chance of affecting others.

 

[SillyBear]

If there are no victims for an activity, then it isn't a crime. End of discussion.

You know, most incidents of speeding don't end up with any damage to property or person. Should only the few speeding incidents that result in death or injury be considered crimes?

... They aren't crimes in a situation where no one gets hurt just ticket-able and fine-able offenses.

Also your comparing a situation that can hurt someone to one that has no chance of affecting others.

No chance of hurting others? Bullshit. You don't know that. Let me just quote something I've already said to someone making the exact point you are making here:

It's way, way more complicated than saying "these are fake children so it is all okay!". We just don't know if there truly is a victim or not. Japanese animated child pornography could be creating a dangerous environment for children. It could be sending out a dangerous rhetoric to its readers and influencing society in a thousand ways.

Or it could be completely harmless and only influences the fantasy world that it is set in.

We just don't know, and we can't take a side until we do.

edit: Like I said earlier, this man could actually have a criminal connection to this manga comic. We just don't know. Let the police do their fucking job and shut up.

 

[Sixties Spidey]

I'm not surprised. After all, I'd have a hard time figuring out if the characters in certain manga were girls or little children.

 

[jyork89]

If there are no victims for an activity, then it isn't a crime. End of discussion.

What the law says is crime is what crime is. It has been said that courts are courts of law not justice. And as Aristotle said, "Law is the correct judgement of the state."

In saying that I do not believe victim-less crimes should be illegal. For example, various fetishes such as scat, and whatever they call the pee ones, and in this case drawn CP. As disgusting as they are (and of course you should be able to feel this way about them) they do not harm the general population in anyway. Just as some feel revulsion about homosexuality. This should extend further to marijuana etc too, just make it illegal to drive while stoned like we did with alcohol.

If it has a high potential to create victims like real CP, drunk driving and certain extreme mind altering substances (crack for example), then it should be illegal. In this modern day and age I do not believe it is the states job to tell us how we should act, but rather it is our job to stop us acting in ways that harm others. People should be informed enough to make their own decisions in this so called "information age" and if they are not... well that's natural selection for you.

 

[t3h br0th3r]

I think this just brings the question of "what is porn"?

I also have to ask: What did he get caught with and how old those the person(s) look in whatever manga he had?

If he got stopped for Ranma 1/2 or High School of the Dead then I call bull, but if he got caught with something that depicts what are clearly under-aged looking characters (aka no reasonable human being could say they look anything close 18 or older) then I have no sympothy for him.

If you visit Ms. Rosy Palmer while watching kids you need to be kept in jail where you wouldn't ruin anyone's lives.

There is a hypothetical 5000 year old witch that looks 13 in a hentai.
Would it count as under-aged porn?

I would count it as under-aged porn. I'm not basing age off what the hentai says the age is but what age the character appears to be. If its porn and the characters 'engaging' don't look anything close to grown then yes, its kiddie porn.

 

[NightlyNews]

Censorship of something deemed illegal is not related to the censorship of art.

Yes it is, its a form of expression that is deemed illegal. It is, therefore, an issue of freedom of expression.

So how about what I wrote before:

Spoiler: Everything in this is fake, don't throw a shit storm

If I want to walk down to my local coffee shop and shoot everyone because its my artistic expression the government shouldn't censor it (stop me)?

Its a form of expression. Why can't I have freedom of expression?

They aren't allow to censor it, as in they can't stop news reporters from covering it.

But, they most definitely can and will stop you for breaking the law. Censorship and enforcing the law should, but aren't always separated.

I honestly just think your exaggerating so hard that you lost your point/trolling because your statement is so obviously false, but in case you aren't there's the facts.

 

[bob1052]

Censorship of something deemed illegal is not related to the censorship of art.

Yes it is, its a form of expression that is deemed illegal. It is, therefore, an issue of freedom of expression.

So how about what I wrote before:

Spoiler: Everything in this is fake, don't throw a shit storm

If I want to walk down to my local coffee shop and shoot everyone because its my artistic expression the government shouldn't censor it (stop me)?

Its a form of expression. Why can't I have freedom of expression?

They aren't allow to censor it, as in they can't stop news reporters from covering it.

But, they most definitely can and will stop you for breaking the law. Censorship and enforcing the law should, but aren't always separated.

I honestly just think your exaggerating so hard that you lost your point/trolling because your statement is so obviously false, but in case you aren't there's the facts.

They aren't censoring this guys Hentai (if it even is Hentai), they are just stopping him for breaking the law.

Also be careful about using the T word. Even when its blatantly obvious you get banned for saying it apparently.

 

[Marik2]

in the name of the knights who say ni not this shit again, a similar thing happened not to long ago in my country and it was equaly as stupid then actually i think it was stupider because it was about yu-gi-oh.

LOL wut?

How does yugioh count as child porn?

 

[icyneesan]

I really hate that stupid law we have where almost any drawing of a 2D underaged girl in a 'sexual act' can be considered CP. I could doodle a stick girl giving a stick dude a blow job, throw it into my bag, forget about it, and then a year later be arrested for for possession of child pornography. Give me a break Canada. Fix that damn law so its at least more clear.

And while your at it, fix our copy right laws

LOL wut?

How does yugioh count as child porn?

Imma guess Dark Magician Girl.

 

[Daveman]

Pictured: Child Porn according to fucktards.

Surely it's art and therefore protected, I mean I don't know what the pictures are of and they may be horrific but it is just a fucking picture.

 

[NightlyNews]

If there are no victims for an activity, then it isn't a crime. End of discussion.

You know, most incidents of speeding don't end up with any damage to property or person. Should only the few speeding incidents that result in death or injury be considered crimes?

... They aren't crimes in a situation where no one gets hurt just ticket-able and fine-able offenses.

Also your comparing a situation that can hurt someone to one that has no chance of affecting others.

No chance of hurting others? Bullshit. You don't know that. Let me just quote something I've already said to someone making the exact point you are making here:

It's way, way more complicated than saying "these are fake children so it is all okay!". We just don't know if there truly is a victim or not. Japanese animated child pornography could be creating a dangerous environment for children. It could be sending out a dangerous rhetoric to its readers and influencing society in a thousand ways.

Or it could be completely harmless and only influences the fantasy world that it is set in.

We just don't know, and we can't take a side until we do.

edit: Like I said earlier, this man could actually have a criminal connection to this manga comic. We just don't know. Let the police do their fucking job and shut up.

Thats an abstract view of "hurting people" and is obviously not defended by courts. Same reason why art or statements like fuck jews can't be prosecuted unless it is specifically inciting a crime i.e. meet me on this street at this time to kill black people or something like that.

I don't want to get into an argument on whether or not cp affects peoples actions. Your point simply is not valid. There isn't a clear line from creator to victim so it can't be prosecuted for inciting rape of a child.

I could theoretically publish a book about my favorite positions with children and that wouldn't be illegal, despite the fact that it is clearly in bad taste and may romance an illegal action. It might be censored under obscenity laws, but it wouldn't be illegal just because I'm talking about sex with children.

Child porn is illegal because the child is the victim and it's intent is to stop it from being produced to save children. If cp could be made without a victim I would be interested to see the court case trying to outlaw it.

 

[bob1052]

I love how everyone here is just instantly assuming the manga he had on him was the worst possible form it could be. I have yet to see anything about WHAT manga he had on his digital person, so lets just cut the crap about guessing that "since Canada said it was porn, it must be porn". I've seen more than my fair share of odd cover art for Manga, so who knows if this was an assumption based on just the cover, or if they actually bothered to look through it.

Am I saying it wasn't though, no. I'm plenty sure there IS manga that are borderline CP around, and I'm sure people around the world know about and look at them.

Considering the only source we have so far in this thread is from the side that will obviously have heavy bias in their journalism I think that the lack of information regarding what manga it was is a bad omen.

 

[t3h br0th3r]

If I want to walk down to my local coffee shop and shoot everyone because its my artistic expression the government shouldn't censor it (stop me)?

hyperbole:
1.obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as ?to wait an eternity.?
3. not helpful in discussions of ethics

The difficult thing about this kind of disicussion isn't defining porn (everyone over tha ge 12 knows what that is) but defining what is art, what is not art, and if something known and agreed to be art is worth protecting.

You are trying to claim that something that was deemed illegal is art and therefore shouldn't be deemed illegal.

Now you are drawing imaginary lines in the sand so that your reasoning works and mine doesn't when I do the exact same thing as you in a different magnitude.

Not to mention you can't even disprove my horribly weak counterpoint but instead you create a fake dictionary definition instead, its actually quite hilarious how bad you are at back and forth discussions.

No, I am saying that your horribly weak counter point wasn't worth countering and was honestly counter-productive.

My second point was simply to illustrate how tricky this subject can be by trying to pull peoples attention from what is porn to what is art, something that there are no real definitions of. The closest thing i ever got was from a theature prof who said something is art if it "(paraphrase)fullfills atleast one of the 9 critera of art (look it up) and the artist wanted it to be art. Personal opinion holds no sway."

 

[ThatLankyBastard]

Wait... Loli is illegal in Canada???

Oh shi-