I know why you used heroine as an example, but you missed my original point. I never said they did it for pleasure. I said it was NATURAL. They are BORN READY TO FIGHT. As are lions, cougars, etc.
Pleasure has nothing to do with it in my opinion.
EDIT: As for the kill thing, I may be wrong or right - but this is strictly to do with bullying.
Ok well fair enough if I am not following what you are trying to but yes everyone is born ready to fight for survival that is a natural but no one is born with a bullying mentallity in them which is why I bring the pleasure thing into it. People mostly bully to be part of a group and to feel big or atleast that is what I think from personal experience. I am not saying people don't have fight in them but people don't naturally have a bully in them.
I know why you used heroine as an example, but you missed my original point. I never said they did it for pleasure. I said it was NATURAL. They are BORN READY TO FIGHT. As are lions, cougars, etc.
Pleasure has nothing to do with it in my opinion.
EDIT: As for the kill thing, I may be wrong or right - but this is strictly to do with bullying.
Ok well fair enough if I am not following what you are trying to but yes everyone is born ready to fight for survival that is a natural but no one is born with a bullying mentallity in them which is why I bring the pleasure thing into it. People mostly bully to be part of a group and to feel big or atleast that is what I think from personal experience. I am not saying people don't have fight in them but people don't naturally have a bully in them.
Lions fight to be head of a pride. Same for humans in my opinion, power is essential for everyone to have, I personally think that isn't taught, but it's natural. Just my opinion, of course.
Lions fight to be head of a pride. Same for humans in my opinion, power is essential for everyone to have, I personally think that isn't taught, but it's natural. Just my opinion, of course.
Yes a want for power and to be the best is natural to an extent as well but bully which is more use of fear to get that power is never the right way. Fear is always going to come back and bite you in the ass and rip your cheeks off. Respect however, will last a life time. Given that bullying is fear based there are much better ways to become a leader type figure or get power.
Spoken by someone who has never experienced actual bullying. If you think bullying is natural and normal I think you are a little not right to be honest. There is nothing natural or good about bullying.
Bullying is a fully natural extension of human behavior. We evolved a societal mentality wherein one's position in that society are paramount, and all outsiders should be shunned. It's just the way the human mind has evolved, and we haven't been "civilized" long enough for the evolutionary changes by such to take place.
What this means is that children, who most of the time don't know any better, start acting on the impulses to promote themselves within their social circle, even if (or perhaps especially) it is to the detriment of an outsider. It's how we work.
Now, the act of bullying in and of itself is not good, but what it teaches people is an exceptionally valuable life lesson that everyone should learn, preferably as soon as possible. That lesson is, to put it simply, "Life is hard. Get over yourself and live it." There's far too many people out there that either haven't or refuse to learn it, and it's the direct cause of a significant portion of the problems in human society.
As for my take on the topic, I have to say that I'm of the opinion that what we should really be doing is encouraging children to fight back against bullies instead of imposing penalties on the bullies. Teachers and the establishment punishing bullies doesn't do anything, especially since most school punishments are so asinine and pathetic that they don't even serve as a deterrent. In my opinion, just teach children to stand up for themselves, and then we wouldn't have nearly as many bullies. Putting up a good fight, whether you win or not, almost always ends any sort of bullying.
mParadox said:
So....let me get this straight...
You are implying that getting your head dunked in the toilet is a valuable experience?
Sorry mate but a victim always think the other way around.
BTW i was never bullied. just putting it out there.
It's not so much the experience that's valuable as the lesson it teaches. Being a victim is never a good thing, but there is some value to be had in learning how to deal with it. It teaches you how to get on with life even when it sucks. Are there other ways to learn that? Most likely, but there's nothing quite as effective as being victimized repeatedly for long periods of time.
PS - Just for the obligatory whether I was bullied or not comment that just about everyone posting in this thread has mentioned, for 7 years, my entire grammar school class (or at least the male half, the female half just wanted nothing to do with me) wanted nothing more than to smash my skull in with a crowbar, and things didn't improve much in high school.
Here is my problem with bullies and the perceived threat they represent: the victim must first allow themselves to be a victim.
You see, I am not a large guy even as an adult (5' 8", 145 lbs), so as you can imagine was not a large guy as a teen either. What's more, I have a personality that is quite dangerous for someone of my stature: I have a pathological distaste for being told what to do and I really enjoy getting into arguments. These two factors conspired for a significant portion of my life and I was, on more than one occasion, the target of bullies.
The thing was, while I have a very long fuse in most cases, when pushed I will stand and fight. At my size it was rare that I would actually "win" a fight but simply the act of resisting when I was pressed to far was enough to make any particular bully stop fighting. It turns out that even winning a fight can be painful if the other party decides to defend themselves. Eventually, after I had lost enough blood and gained enough scars while returning some damage in kind the problem resolved itself. I stopped being bullied.
Yes there were entire systems in place that implied I should not resist as I would be punished the same as the bully even though I only threw the first punch on one occasion (which was, incidentally, the last time I was bullied). But in spite of the fact that I would be punished if I resisted, in spite of the fact that I knew I was almost certainly going to lose it never once occurred to me that I should do anything but fight. I never sat down and played the victim because if I was going to suffer then, by god, the other guy was too.
This is where I take issue with the current problem. That there is a problem with bullies is nothing new and there is almost certainly no solution on the horizon. That we have a whole generation who, for some reason, believes that they have no option is the problem. It is a culture of victimization that I simply cannot identify with. The very idea that I would do so much as lay down and take it indefinitely is insane enough; that people are driven to suicide is almost incomprehensible. Spite, if nothing else, would keep me alive. Simply knowing that my very presence irritated my aggressor was often enough to satisfy me. And when eventually the endeavored to do something about it, the fact that I could make them bleed along with me was more than enough to make the struggle worth it regardless of who won or lost.
The only way a bully can win is if you let them and I, to this day, refuse to be a victim.
I in fact have faced a lot of bullying, used to get my ass beat, even had a schizorphrenic loser be higher on the social rung then me, and beat my ass.
Glademaster said:
Jimson said:
Actually, If you read it as it was intended you would notice, I do not call Bullying bad, I in fact believe it is a natural course of human development, and people need to notice this before we lose something so valuable. (not the bullying it's self but the things we develop because of it) Discuss.
Spoken by someone who has never experienced actual bullying. If you think bullying is natural and normal I think you are a little not right to be honest. There is nothing natural or good about bullying.
If you do not see how Bullying is natural, then you have never watched any of the early 50's after school programs, bullying has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years.
From a natural perspective, schools are places where lot's kids of different tribes are packed together. Not something that would happen in primitive societies, or with our closest relative, the chimp.
Bullying then may be a natural reaction to an unnatural situation.
In a tribe (human or monkey) there is a limit to the bullying the kids can do, because the mothers are always watching.
The hierarchy is for adults, not for kids. For the adults, the alpha male rarely harms members of the tribe and can even find himself at the wrong end of the united tribe if he goes too far.
It gets nasty when members of different tribes meet, which is when everything is allowed. That usually ends with the violent death of all the males(biting off cheeks and genitals) and infants of one tribe and all the females getting raped.
That behavioural coding is still present in modern humans. Genocide is natural. It's just not good.
It is the way for humans to show superiority, over others, and to look even further, we develop things needed to survive in society because of it, Because to put it simply, there are always those whom will be the "victims" the problem is do they persevere and push forward, in the face of adversity and learn something about the world, or kill themselves, because the media and our monocentric society tell us, that everything that happens to you, is worse then anything else the world has ever faced ever, and if you can't take it then you don't have to.
Too much adversity is never good. Kids need challenges they can face, with only minor defeats, to develop optimally.
Bullying instead of teasing, will damage a kid for life.
Of course you would know this (and that I had been bullied even up until I was a senior, and I don't mean hurr hurr your a loser, I mean getting my ass beat, being terrified of going to school so much that I would force myself to throw up in the hopes that I would get the day off for being sick) If you had actually read my post.
I agree, being ridiculed on a daily basis builds character. The character it builds happen to be suicidal. That mentally challenged girl that committed suicide because of bullying should have pulled herself up by her bootstraps and shrugged off that biological handicap. The foreign girl who was pushed down stairs should have used the elevator. Those kids who were abused by their parents and bullied about it when they told a friend should have just chosen to be born to someone else, it's so simple these dumb kids just don't get it.
The girl who was so lonely she turned to the internet to find some kind of companionship and was then misled by an adult neighbor posing as a boy should have chosen solitude.
If you look at it from the bully side of things, they do stuff so that they can become adults where it is morally correct to harass, insult, asssault others and is in no way illegal.
Everyone get off your heart medication, stop taking mood stabilizers, get out of your wheelchairs and stop whining. The world is unfair and by trying to improve it we just hold back what is natural.
The current system doesn't discourage bullying. It discourages fighting back against bullies.
I remember early high school. If a bully in any way hurt you, even up to directly hitting you, he got away with a talking to. No punishment whatsoever. If you, however, punched back, then you both get the same punishment- be it detention, temporary suspension, or whatever.
...and you know what? The pamphlets they gave out, the student handbook, and the announcements on the subject all said one thing- "Do NOT fight back". Go get a teacher, who will do nothing about it. It's only a rule violation if it's an actual fight, with two or more people fighting each other, so that's what all they care about.
So, as an A student who never gets in trouble, you have two choices- fight back and get suspended (and potentially fall behind or lose a class ranking or something) or sit there and take it.
You didn't say bullying is natural you basically just said it was a learned and accepted social norm. It makes it the norm for our culture but it does not make it natural. Just because a child has not been taught right and wrong properly by their parents does make bullying natural. It is done to further that child wants and needs and makes that child feel good about itself at the expense of others. The reason they continue this is that they are not given the proper negative consequences of their actions early enough. If that means the bullied beats the bully into a bloody pulp then so be it.
You didn't say bullying is natural you basically just said it was a learned and accepted social norm. It makes it the norm for our culture but it does not make it natural. Just because a child has not been taught right and wrong properly by their parents does make bullying natural. It is done to further that child wants and needs and makes that child feel good about itself at the expense of others. The reason they continue this is that they are not given the proper negative consequences of their actions early enough. If that means the bullied beats the bully into a bloody pulp then so be it.
No. The act of bullying is quite literally the application of specific evolutionary traits that humans possess. To be specific, our "tribe" mentality. Humans have a natural aversion to outsiders and a strong desire to fit in with their tribe. In schools, the tribe takes the form of cliques where students spend most of their time socializing within. Anyone not in the clique is therefore an outsider and unwelcome, which leads directly to them being bullied.
It is not good or just, but it is natural.
For the rest of it though, you are 100% correct. Bullies need to be taught that their actions are unacceptable. Unfortunately, there's only two ways that can be done. The first is to have the parent(s) step in and administer harsh punishments whenever they cross the line. This is extremely difficult since parents are rarely around their children when they choose to misbehave. The second (and I would say most effective) solution is for the bully's target to stand up for themselves.
What we need to do is get rid of the ridiculous mentality that gets kids punished for standing up for themselves. Our entire school system (at least in the US) is structured in such a way as to make the children as spineless as possible. We need to encourage students to stand up for themselves and to fight back against anyone who tries to victimize them.
I spot several flaws in your argument.
1. It's natural, therefore it's right and should be allowed to continue. An action isn't moral or the best thing for society just because it's human instinct. That's because, as anyone whose spent 30 minutes in a sociology class can tell you, human instincts evolved from small groups migratory groups living in the African savanna, and that is no longer the human condition. Take hoarding during times of scarcity for example, or group panic. Ignoring or even encouraging such behavior (and frankly, there's not much difference between the two) as you suggest we do with bullying would be disastrous for modern society.
2. All normal children seek to alienate others outside of their small clique via bullying. This simply isn't true. Plenty of children, teens, and adults have groups of close friends without becoming bullies or alienating others. Bullies behaviors (when not financially motivated) are usually the result of deep-seated insecurity.
3. Bullying "toughens-up" children and prepares for the real world. I can't think of one single person, myself included, who ever thanked or was grateful to a bully at any time in their life for "preparing them". Bullying doesn't "toughen you up" it just hurts. All prolonged bullying will teach you is how to be afraid, angry, and bitter. It also distracts children from the real reason for their being in school, a.k.a. getting an education. It's awfully hard to concentrate on long division when your trying to keep from shitting yourself in fear. And that doesn't even touch on the damage done to the person committing these acts. What's the bully learning? That it's okay to take whatever you want, so long as your the bigger guy? That making others feel bad will make you feel good? Does that sound like what you want a child to learn? Does it sound like it will lead to a future productive member of society? Because it sounds like a future criminal and asshole to me.
tl;dr Bullying might be a part of growing up, but that doesn't mean that such behavior should be tolerated or ignored. At all. Ever.
Man you people have it rough. The moment I stood up to a bully and injured them in the process was the day I realised they're not invincible. It didn't matter what would happen afterwards, just as long as they understand to not mess with me.
So, as a bully against bullies, the very reason they bully to begin with is for self-esteem. Not a single (sane) child ever bullies because they genuinely purely enjoy it. There's a trigger which influences their behavior which likely stems from something or someone upsetting them, perhaps parental abuse or neglect being common.
I didn't build my character being bullied, it was from being the better man.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
