American Theocracy

[slyph]

I tend to take a pragmatic perspective to all this, as I am not strictly opposed to a working, peaceful theocratic state.

What annoys me is that the Christian Right in America has twisted Christianity as a whole into this evangelical, cult-like group that hates gays, hates science and hates other religions. If you actually read the tone of the Bible there isnt a lot of hate going on, in particular there isnt a lot of restriction of choice, only a list of consequences.

What scares me about a US theocratic shift is that the first thing the US seems to do is start lobbying at state level to make certain religious laws real laws (abortion/gay marriage prime examples), which is removing from people the choice that Jesus actually gave everyone (if you believe that of course).

The integration of religious rule into state law is what we see in Iran and Saudi Arabia and its nothing the US should want to emulate for any reason.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

My opinion is this: there is nothing inherently wrong with religion; let's be honest here, we can't can't prove the non-existence of God any better than we an prove the existence of God, but politics is a dirty business, and religion has no place in it in terms of making decisions and guiding the state by a singular doctrine. I'm confident that we are inching towards a much more tolerable society in the regard to people, who were once second-class citizens, or even people unworthy to live, are now being accepted (or tolerated), and science is much more prevalent today and has made phenomenal progress as it stands. What remains is that we let extremism stagnate and distill on it own terms. If they isolate themselves from the rationality that defines modern civilization, they will cease to be relevant.

If you really think there is nothing wrong with religion, I would encourage you to read anything by Sam Harris ("Letter to a Christian Nation" is very good, and it's quick read too, but "The End of Faith," is a little more comprehensive). Religion is responsible for so much violence, misogyny, biggotry, and psychological damage, amongst other things, that it's not even funny.

And while it's true that the non-existence of God can't be absolutely proven, I would encourage you here to read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," for arguments to the affect that while God's existence can't be disproven, we can ditermine that the probability of his existence is far less than the probability of his non-existence.

 

[Agayek]

Problem: The line between Church and State is blurred.

Solution: Kill Everyone.

 

[Avatar Roku]

Problem: The line between Church and State is blurred.

Solution: Kill Everyone.

I second this. Objections...?

No? The motion carries. We'll kill everyone this Saturday, make sure Max the Reaper knows, he won't want to miss it.

 

[A random person]

The integration between church and state is the most threatening un-discussed problems. It's starting to be that if a person is conservative they are a god fearing christian fundamentalist and if a person is a liberal they are a baby eating atheist.

I'd make a joke about me eating babies, but I'd probably get banned.

But yeah, that thing about conservatives being good Americans and liberals being evil is a stupid caricature. I view it the other way around with conservatives upholding religious and traditional values at the cost of human life and happiness, you know, things that matter, while liberals don't follow arbitrary values as much and think of making things better for people, though I'm far from unbiased.

The whole "liberals are evil" thing was popularized by Regan and won't seem to go away for some reason.

 

[RebelRising]

My opinion is this: there is nothing inherently wrong with religion; let's be honest here, we can't can't prove the non-existence of God any better than we an prove the existence of God, but politics is a dirty business, and religion has no place in it in terms of making decisions and guiding the state by a singular doctrine. I'm confident that we are inching towards a much more tolerable society in the regard to people, who were once second-class citizens, or even people unworthy to live, are now being accepted (or tolerated), and science is much more prevalent today and has made phenomenal progress as it stands. What remains is that we let extremism stagnate and distill on it own terms. If they isolate themselves from the rationality that defines modern civilization, they will cease to be relevant.

If you really think there is nothing wrong with religion, I would encourage you to read anything by Sam Harris ("Letter to a Christian Nation" is very good, and it's quick read too, but "The End of Faith," is a little more comprehensive). Religion is responsible for so much violence, misogyny, biggotry, and psychological damage, amongst other things, that it's not even funny.

And while it's true that the non-existence of God can't be absolutely proven, I would encourage you here to read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," for arguments to the affect that while God's existence can't be disproven, we can ditermine that the probability of his existence is far less than the probability of his non-existence.

I said there is nothing wrong with Religion, not Religious People. Believe me, I know all about all the shortcomings of organized religion (I go to a Christian private school, despite being Atheistic-Agnostic), I'm just trying to avoid a huge flame-war here.

On a similar note, have you seen Religilous? Because you'd love that movie, as do I.

Let me reiterate my stance on this: I'm not a militant "OMG You believe in a magic man the sky, your stoopid" atheist, but I still think we'd be better off without practicing religion (not to say we shouldn't retain the mythology); for the most part, it's just backwards when applied to the real world. My counter-point to that would be to urge us not to look down on religion as something that should be removed by force.

We heretics should remember what it was once like to be suppressed and hunted down for our beliefs. At least we don't have the Spanish Inquisition and the Teutonic Order.

 

[A random person]

Problem: The line between Church and State is blurred.

Solution: Kill Everyone.

I second this. Objections...?

No? The motion carries. We'll kill everyone this Saturday, make sure Max the Reaper knows, he won't want to miss it.

Sadly Maxi is suspended for no good reason, so we'll have to wait a week.

Can we bring Experimental MIRVs to make the killing easier?

Easier? You're missing the point dear boy, the sweet bloodlust of our goal! We will kill them ourselves in person, machine guns blazing and rockets blowing up. Have some missiles, however; I've always wanted to cause some massive explosions with just a command.

 

[steveo_justice]

A) 90% of the stuff you hear about Sarah Palin and the like is bullshit. Well, 100% is bullshit, just 90% is made up media bullshit and 10% are true theocratic bullshits shat by the politicians.

B) The country was founded on a set of jeudeo-christian morals, and nothing you can do will ever change that. The fact is, most aethiests/agnostics hold many of those morals anyway, and simply try and distance themselves from them due to their beleifs. I'm not trying to be a jackass about it or anything, but that's how I've seen it work. Those morals probably involve more of things like honesty and good character, however, and less about controversial things like gay marriage.

If anything, church and state have grown farther apart, and I think people really need to get a stiff upper lip over "Affirmative Action" and if some city happens to have a nativity scene set up at the park.

Seriously, if anyone reading this has a problem with public nativity scenes, you meed to suck it the hell up.

 

[Avatar Roku]

Problem: The line between Church and State is blurred.

Solution: Kill Everyone.

I second this. Objections...?

No? The motion carries. We'll kill everyone this Saturday, make sure Max the Reaper knows, he won't want to miss it.

Sadly Maxi is suspended for no good reason, so we'll have to wait a week.

Can we bring Experimental MIRVs to make the killing easier?

Oh? I hadn't head about Max being suspended, although I was just thinking about how little I'd seen of him lately.

Good idea. You see, Dylan, this is why I keep you around

 

[Kpt._Rob]

My opinion is this: there is nothing inherently wrong with religion; let's be honest here, we can't can't prove the non-existence of God any better than we an prove the existence of God, but politics is a dirty business, and religion has no place in it in terms of making decisions and guiding the state by a singular doctrine. I'm confident that we are inching towards a much more tolerable society in the regard to people, who were once second-class citizens, or even people unworthy to live, are now being accepted (or tolerated), and science is much more prevalent today and has made phenomenal progress as it stands. What remains is that we let extremism stagnate and distill on it own terms. If they isolate themselves from the rationality that defines modern civilization, they will cease to be relevant.

If you really think there is nothing wrong with religion, I would encourage you to read anything by Sam Harris ("Letter to a Christian Nation" is very good, and it's quick read too, but "The End of Faith," is a little more comprehensive). Religion is responsible for so much violence, misogyny, biggotry, and psychological damage, amongst other things, that it's not even funny.

And while it's true that the non-existence of God can't be absolutely proven, I would encourage you here to read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," for arguments to the affect that while God's existence can't be disproven, we can ditermine that the probability of his existence is far less than the probability of his non-existence.

I said there is nothing wrong with Religion, not Religious People. Believe me, I know all about all the shortcomings of organized religion (I go to a Christian private school, despite being Atheistic-Agnostic), I'm just trying to avoid a huge flame-war here.

On a similar note, have you seen Religilous? Because you'd love that movie, as do I.

Let me reiterate my stance on this: I'm not a militant "OMG You believe in a magic man the sky, your stoopid" atheist, but I still think we'd be better off without practicing religion (not to say we shouldn't retain the mythology); for the most part, it's just backwards when applied to the real world. My counter-point to that would be to urge us not to look down on religion as something that should be removed by force.

We heretics should remember what it was once like to be suppressed and hunted down for our beliefs. At least we don't have the Spanish Inquisition and the Teutonic Order.

While, personally speaking, I do advocate for a more agressive atheism, I will say that I see your point. And yes, I love Religulous, I have it on my iPod.

State and church should be completely separated: God has no place in political policies. Legislating religious morality does breach the separation of church and state. Didn't a wise man once remark "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and unto god that which is God's?"

What about those of us that worship at a different type of church or none at all- to kowtow to one religion is unfair to us so yeah it doesn't have top be fair to the church it has to be fair to the state. As long as the law guarantees freedom of religion that shouldn't be an issue. If you want to live in a country that is religiously based; find a theocracy. America shouldn't be religious in legislation- we shouldn't have an official religion and we should continue to respect all religions. Religion should have NO place in American politics. Read the constitution.

We had our own version of the inquisition with the Witch burnings.

Many conservatives are extremely vicious on their attacks on liberals- youtube Bill O'Reilly or most fox news reporters to see what I mean. Maybe its time for the liberals to defend themselves?

I'm waiting for the day that political candidates can refuse to answer the what is your religion question and still be viable- perhaps I'm a dreamer.

Seconded. If I may paraphrase Sam Harris, when our political leaders get up and say that they want to do something because they believe it is the will of God, someone should get up and say "how is that any different from saying you want to do something because you believe it is the will of Zeus?"

Also, I'm afraid you missed your day to hear political candidates refuse to answer questions about religion. Those were the early days of our nation, back when the founding fathers, many of whom were deist, actually followed the policy of seperation of church and state. Still, one can hope they'll come again.

 

[steveo_justice]

My opinion is this: there is nothing inherently wrong with religion; let's be honest here, we can't can't prove the non-existence of God any better than we an prove the existence of God, but politics is a dirty business, and religion has no place in it in terms of making decisions and guiding the state by a singular doctrine. I'm confident that we are inching towards a much more tolerable society in the regard to people, who were once second-class citizens, or even people unworthy to live, are now being accepted (or tolerated), and science is much more prevalent today and has made phenomenal progress as it stands. What remains is that we let extremism stagnate and distill on it own terms. If they isolate themselves from the rationality that defines modern civilization, they will cease to be relevant.

If you really think there is nothing wrong with religion, I would encourage you to read anything by Sam Harris ("Letter to a Christian Nation" is very good, and it's quick read too, but "The End of Faith," is a little more comprehensive). Religion is responsible for so much violence, misogyny, biggotry, and psychological damage, amongst other things, that it's not even funny.

And while it's true that the non-existence of God can't be absolutely proven, I would encourage you here to read Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," for arguments to the affect that while God's existence can't be disproven, we can ditermine that the probability of his existence is far less than the probability of his non-existence.

I said there is nothing wrong with Religion, not Religious People. Believe me, I know all about all the shortcomings of organized religion (I go to a Christian private school, despite being Atheistic-Agnostic), I'm just trying to avoid a huge flame-war here.

On a similar note, have you seen Religilous? Because you'd love that movie, as do I.

Let me reiterate my stance on this: I'm not a militant "OMG You believe in a magic man the sky, your stoopid" atheist, but I still think we'd be better off without practicing religion (not to say we shouldn't retain the mythology); for the most part, it's just backwards when applied to the real world. My counter-point to that would be to urge us not to look down on religion as something that should be removed by force.

We heretics should remember what it was once like to be suppressed and hunted down for our beliefs. At least we don't have the Spanish Inquisition and the Teutonic Order.

I can't blame you for not expecting the Spanish Inquisition... NO ONE EXPECTS the Spanish Inquisition!!!!!

And by the way, I think it's pretty neat how you can remember things from when you weren't alive. And I'm half jewish by ethnicity, and I gotta say, those aethist dudes Hitler and Vlad the Impaler, they're not even comparable to the Inquisition. Or wait, was it that they were far worse and more sadistic than the Inquistions, and then I was going to deliver a thesis that such dickery is less to do with religion, and more to do with human nature? I can't remember now.

 

[The_Echo]

Becoming?

This. The U.S has been a center of theology and hatred for years now. It's just now coming to a peak. I recommend watching the film "Religulous" which shows some very good points aganist religion and its influence on society.

Of course religion would have an influence on society. Nobody needs to watch a movie to realize that. Oh, and how have the United States been a center for theology? It's not like the government is collecting people across the shores to study God.
I also agree with an above post that stated that the separation of church and state can only be accomplished if one is removed absolutely. Why? Because, as long as they both exist, and as long as even one person, rooted in both, remains alive, church and state will never be completely separate.

But personally, I don't see how this country is heading toward theocracy. Sure, our leaders are religious, but that doesn't mean they're going to pull their religion into their administration.

 

[reaper660]

If you want to understand why atheists like myself are attacking religion, take some time out of your busy day, rent or buy a copy of Jesus Camp, and then watch it. The religious right in this country is responsible for a number of attrocities, and is right to be attacked. The fact that gays can't marry is something that we, as Americans, should be downright ashamed of, and innocent children suffer massive psychological damage as the end result of religious indoctrination by fundamentalists. Moderate religion is a victim in the crossfire, because the fundamentalists draw their legitimacy from the numbers of people who call themselves "Christian".[/quote]

lots of quotes.....First, you have to take a look at the TV once in a while, and notice the bias going on.......i live in california, so it probably mostly happens here (as opposed to southern states) but the anti-conservative-religious stuff happening is out of control...up to the point where churches have smashed windows, and anti-bush and rush posters are getting very annoying. and Rob, would you be kind enough to mention these "atrocities" that (specifically) the Christian-Right has caused? Thank you, as you are a perfect example of how people attack nearly everything that I believe...backing their arguments up with unrelated facts and statistics.....but I do agree with you on one point....Young Earth Creationists are making us normal Christians look bad....and most anti-religious people succeed in relating us to that extreme group

 

[Kpt._Rob]

B) The country was founded on a set of jeudeo-christian morals, and nothing you can do will ever change that. The fact is, most aethiests/agnostics hold many of those morals anyway, and simply try and distance themselves from them due to their beleifs. I'm not trying to be a jackass about it or anything, but that's how I've seen it work. Those morals probably involve more of things like honesty and good character, however, and less about controversial things like gay marriage.

If anything, church and state have grown farther apart, and I think people really need to get a stiff upper lip over "Affirmative Action" and if some city happens to have a nativity scene set up at the park.

Seriously, if anyone reading this has a problem with public nativity scenes, you meed to suck it the hell up.

No, the people who came here on boats had judeo-Christian morals. The FOUNDING FATHERS did not. Most of them were Deist, many of them even anti-religionist. Ben Franklin once said "lighthouses are more useful than churches." Thomas Jefferson said, "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." And many of them wrote quite eloquently about the seperation of church and state.