An Armed Society is a Polite Society (?)

[iain62a]

Look at the UK. We don't all have guns but we've got some serious knife crime issues.

I agree that guns aren't going to solve the problem but if someone wants to harm another person, they'll find something to arm themselves with.

Yeah, but you're probably less likely to kill someone with a knife than with a gun. Knives are still dangerous, but I'm pretty sure that they're less dangerous than guns.

A knife is no less dangerous than a gun. Granted, they have very limited range unless you have one hell of a throwing arm, but they still kill people just as dead. In fact, I would say knives are a far more violent and brutal way to kill someone than shooting them. Knives show more intent.

A bullet will generally do a lot more damage than a stab wound.Granted, there are places where both will kill instantly, but in general a gun is more deadly.

 

[CapnGod]

You keep escalating the acceptable level of response. First, it's hide. Now, you're advocating using force of some level. Why not just accept that force might be necessary, and the best force is the kind that they will understand? Everyone gets a gun. It's a pretty unambiguous means of communicating your intent that they have invaded your home and you mean to have them leave.

Your problem here is that you refuse to take off the kid gloves for the criminals, but want to hold the victim to some sort of moral high ground.

I'm a refuse to kill kinda guy. Just how I roll.

I'm not saying I'd be happy about it. But better that I should live than them. They made their choice.

 

[Sane Man]

And if they find you while you are pissing your pants in the corner? Especially if they find you and found out you called the police. Why would you not want to defend yourself? No one is saying to run around hunting criminals like vigilantes. Nor is anyone saying they cannot wait for the second someone breaks in so they can shoot them.

It simply gives you the means to defend yourself, your family, and your property. You know if you are good at throwing knives, then go ahead and do that. However, most people want to find the easiest thing to learn that has the most "leveling" effect. That happens to be firearms, and here we are.

There's nothing to gain from being a hero. Call the police, hide at a neighbour's house.

Not to mention, pepper spray, tasers and stun guns can work, too...

Do I seriously have to continue to do this? You have no time to run to the neighbor's, or they catch you as you do. WHY rely on everybody else other than yourself? That's the problem, YOU are relying on everybody else in the world other than yourself to save you and your family. You are relying the police arrive in time to help you. You are relying on your neighbor to answer the door quickly enough or to be home. You are relying on the criminal not to assault you or worse. How about some personal responsibility and rely on yourself?

If I am considered a hero because I save my family, so be it. I call it being a good husband and father, you can call it what you will.

I don't mind using other means as you mentioned, but neither do I mind the use of firearms. If you spray someone in the face and then he gets pissed and starts blasting away in the house, I'd really regret not buying that handgun.

 

[tsb247]

You keep escalating the acceptable level of response. First, it's hide. Now, you're advocating using force of some level. Why not just accept that force might be necessary, and the best force is the kind that they will understand? Everyone gets a gun. It's a pretty unambiguous means of communicating your intent that they have invaded your home and you mean to have them leave.

Your problem here is that you refuse to take off the kid gloves for the criminals, but want to hold the victim to some sort of moral high ground.

I'm a refuse to kill kinda guy. Just how I roll.

The guy that breaks into your home may not share that sentiment.

 

[Booze Zombie]

The guy that breaks into your home may not share that sentiment.

Which is why I don't have a home that's easy to break into, nor anything worth stealing inside of said house.

 

[tsb247]

The guy that breaks into your home may not share that sentiment.

Which is why I don't have a home that's easy to break into, nor anything worth stealing inside of said house.

Every home can be broken into, and it doesn't matter what is inside. A criminal casing a neighborhood doesn't need to know what is inside. All they know is that there is some building with someone's things inside of it, and those things may or may not be vaulable. Do you have any personal information or identification that could be stolen? Those are targets as well since they sell for top dollar on the black market. Unless you live in a concrete bunker built into the side of a mountain, your home is just as easy to break into as anyone else's unless you have steel doors and/or one hell of an alarm system that teleports law enforcement into your living room.

 

[CapnGod]

Look, he'll have some flippant remark for any logical or reasonable refutation of his stance. He can't be argued with on this position. He thinks he's right, and no matter what we may come up with, he'll find some weasel way out of it.

Pretty much making him a troll. Let him be.

 

[Koeryn]

Look at the UK. We don't all have guns but we've got some serious knife crime issues.

I agree that guns aren't going to solve the problem but if someone wants to harm another person, they'll find something to arm themselves with.

Yeah, but you're probably less likely to kill someone with a knife than with a gun. Knives are still dangerous, but I'm pretty sure that they're less dangerous than guns.

Common misconception actually. (Most) Gunshot wounds are a LOT easier to patch and clean and heal from than knife wounds caused by an attacker. Contrary to Anime-belief, knives do NOT cut clean, they usually rip and pull. A gunshot wound is, believe it or not, easier to treat then a similar stab wound, especially if it was from your common survival knife. You know, the ones with serations on the back?

Wait, so you have a choice between letting someone perpetuate their own suffering while letting them support the main source of violence in first world countries (The drug trade, before you go off on some tangent), or killing them, ending their suffering, protecting your valuables, AND removing another source of revenue for the above mentioned drug trafficking?

Also: I'm (mostly) kidding.

To the non-kidding part, that's not your decision

How about I change the heroin addict part, to a mother who has 3 kids, and no financial input for whatever reason, but needs to steal to feed her kids.

There's actually government assistance. If she's stealing to survive, she's shunning the help she COULD get by becoming a burden on the taxpayer through Welfare or even non-profit shelter organizations. She's also not looking for a job, she's instead resorting to a dangerous past time that even if she didn't frighten an trigger-happy gun owner, she's just as likely to be raped to death in the streets, or be killed for the merchandise she's trying to fence in order to survive.

Does that make it right to shoot her down? Not unless she's threatening me. Does it make it right to hold her at gunpoint, probably have a roomate tie her up and then release her to police custody when they arrive? Absolutely.

Also, there's more than one safety on a firearm. The most important one is, believe it or not, the person behind the gun. If the person who broke into the house is unarmed and the person who lives there has a gun on them, while the homeowner is 100% within his or her rights to shoot the person down, they're much, MUCH more likely to hold them at gun point until police arrive. If the intruder is armed, or appears to be, then there should be no hesitation.

A persons background has no bearing when they're knowingly entering someone's home without their knowledge with the intent to steal, harm, or frighten the home owners. The only thing that matters is that they HAVE.

 

[notmyoldaccount]

Look at the UK. We don't all have guns but we've got some serious knife crime issues.

I agree that guns aren't going to solve the problem but if someone wants to harm another person, they'll find something to arm themselves with.

Yeah, but you're probably less likely to kill someone with a knife than with a gun. Knives are still dangerous, but I'm pretty sure that they're less dangerous than guns.

Which is why they are so dangerous, with a gun, if you shoot someone anywhere other than an extremity you know they are most probably going to die.
Because knives are considered less dangerous people will use one in a fight more freely than they would with a gun, because they don't know how easy it is to kill someone with a knife.

 

[notmyoldaccount]

I'd say you're quite a minority, in England. Going upon your disdain for the police and your age I'd say it's down to lack of life experience.

Yea, no shit I'm a minority.

However my disdain for the police is based on my experience of them, two weeks ago about 20 people between ages like 14 and 20 went to this house across the road from me and began banging on the doors and windows yelling about how the girl inside was going to die if she didn't open the door. So me mother decides to the phone the Popo after watching the people for about 10 minutes, about half an hour goes by with no sign of the police when the girl finally decides to anwser the door and gets fucked up by some of the people. About 10 minutes after they all dispersed the operator calls my house back asking how we're doing. Police never showed up, had a good half hour to do so before the girl came out of her house. It's just like that song by Public Enemy.

But you're right, I should let the grown ups talk.

Pretty sure you've overexagerated that a great deal. Link to news story about it if it really was as bad as you say. Either that or your mum didn't explain to the operator the seriousness of the situation.

 

[notmyoldaccount]

A bullet will generally do a lot more damage than a stab wound.Granted, there are places where both will kill instantly, but in general a gun is more deadly.

A knife wound to most of the chest, neck, stomach, head and groin will kill someone, sure a gun shot wound does more damage but they're both lethal, the increased damage is redundant.

 

[notmyoldaccount]

There's actually government assistance. If she's stealing to survive, she's shunning the help she COULD get by becoming a burden on the taxpayer through Welfare or even non-profit shelter organizations. She's also not looking for a job, she's instead resorting to a dangerous past time that even if she didn't frighten an trigger-happy gun owner, she's just as likely to be raped to death in the streets, or be killed for the merchandise she's trying to fence in order to survive.

Does that make it right to shoot her down? Not unless she's threatening me. Does it make it right to hold her at gunpoint, probably have a roomate tie her up and then release her to police custody when they arrive? Absolutely.

Also, there's more than one safety on a firearm. The most important one is, believe it or not, the person behind the gun. If the person who broke into the house is unarmed and the person who lives there has a gun on them, while the homeowner is 100% within his or her rights to shoot the person down, they're much, MUCH more likely to hold them at gun point until police arrive. If the intruder is armed, or appears to be, then there should be no hesitation.

A persons background has no bearing when they're knowingly entering someone's home without their knowledge with the intent to steal, harm, or frighten the home owners. The only thing that matters is that they HAVE.

I didn't know America had a welfare state... the more you know...
And those sort of Shelter organisations aren't as widespread or as capable as you may think. PROTIP: it's hard to get and keep a job when you have to go and score and inject every 4 hours.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I didn't know America had a welfare state... the more you know...
And those sort of Shelter organisations aren't as widespread or as capable as you may think. PROTIP: it's hard to get and keep a job when you have to go and score and inject every 4 hours.

It's a bit harder, but doable with some minor planning. The real problem for most is a lack of skills for the job market to begin with.

 

[kawligia]

"Arms" encompass all weapons, not just guns. A person with a knife is still "armed."

And yes, an armed society IS a polite society. The internet is a perfect example of that fact. Ever notice how people on the internet are extremely mean and rude and say things that would likely get them into a fight IRL?

That's because there are no consequences for doing so. You don't know who that person is or where they live. Aside from a moderator ban or suspension, there is no risk to being an ass.

Saying those things IRL would subject you to a possible ass beating and if people are armed, the chances of people being disrespectful is even lower.

ALSO, while a person who feels disrespected may be more inclined to punch your face in, especially if he appears bigger and stronger than you, he is LESS likely to actually go for it in an armed society because that smaller person will be able to fight back with something other than fists. When that playing field is level, being bigger and stronger isn't a free ticket to retribution.

So in short, in an armed society, people are much less likely to be disrespectful and people who are disrespected are much less likely to try and act on it. Its why people said "Sir" and "Mister" all the time back in the old days but rarely do so anymore unless they are talking to a cop or their boss.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

Not with testosterone filled guys who if anyone bumps into them they pull out they're handgun, just because of an accident.

 

[tsb247]

So in short, in an armed society, people are much less likely to be disrespectful and people who are disrespected are much less likely to try and act on it. Its why people said "Sir" and "Mister" all the time back in the old days but rarely do so anymore unless they are talking to a cop or their boss.

I was actually going to mention that. The concept of an unarmed society is actually a fairly new one in terms of human history. If one was to look back through the history of many nations on earth, one would see that people usually carried some kind of weapon on them at all times. Be it a sword, knife, pistol, or simply a walking stick, people in many societies have carried weapons for centuries, and they did so for the same reasons that many Americans do now. I don't understand how people can say they are better for not being allowed to own/carry a weapon. The human condition has not changed, and while gun crime in their society may be lower, violent crime still finds a way to occur, and people are still murdered just the same. Removing weapons (guns specifically) from a society is no gurantee of peace, and it is not a fix-all solution.

 

[Koeryn]

Also something to keep in mind (And I know it's been mentioned before, but who's going to slog through all these posts?): The majority of gun owners and enthusiasts are good people.

Not all of them. Every group has it's share of parasites.

But, as was mentioned before, walk into a gun store, and EVERYONE there is happy, enthusiastic, and quite genuine. Very similar thing on the internet when you find gun forums. The great majority of people on them are intelligent (or at the very least, not socially retarded), well meaning folk. Why? They aren't afraid of each other. It's something infinitely better than fear.

Respect.

And it's not respect born of fear either. It's genuine, honest, "Hey, I might disagree, but I ain't bashin' ya for it." respect. I don't respect police because they're armed, I respect them because they're out there keepin' things a little safer for me. I don't respect the military 'cuase they've got lots of guns. I respect them because whether people like it or not, they're here for us. They ARE us, they just have the guts to do more than sit at home and complain 'bout how life ain't fair.

That's all there is really. You want a polite society, learn to respect folk. People who keep guns just tend to be more respectful than them what don't. Less to do with the guns I think, and more to do with personal responsibility that they have.

And wow, I need to sleep more. I have a feeling if I check this post later I'm going to wince at ramble-d-y-ness

 

[Rahnzan]

Thought puzzle: you're a robber.

You live on the border of two states in America. One has heavy restricted gun control, the other doesn't. You have a knife.

Which one you gonna do business in?

Thought puzzle; you're a robber.

You live in a country where guns are banned, and the jail sentence for carrying a gun is much higher than the jail sentence for robbery. You have a knife.

Do you go out and try to get a gun?

Obviously. If I'm going to go to jail for using either one I'm going to use the one that's more effective. Why? Because I'm a robber and I genuinely believe I wont get caught, which is why I've got the guff to rob people in the first place. If I did believe I'd get caught, I either wouldn't do it or I want to be caught which says something about my psychological standing where my cries for help manifest in beating up the young or elderly and taking their stuff.

Criminals dont care. Criminals that rob old men or young women dont care. Comparitively, a rapist with aids isn't going to bother to wear a condom because it's illegal to have sex with someone without consenting in them that you have a deadly incurable virus and a robber isn't going to bother making sure his knife or gun meets state code because he's currently breaking the law.

 

[TheCheryl]

In the areas that have concealed carry completely legal the crime rate is significantly lower as opposed to the areas here that don't. I think that answers you question for me rather nicely thank you.

 

[CapnGod]

Not with testosterone filled guys who if anyone bumps into them they pull out they're handgun, just because of an accident.

I'm going to have to call incoherent bullshit and shenanigans on this post. Put up or shut up. Show me a story. Give me a link.

Also something to keep in mind (And I know it's been mentioned before, but who's going to slog through all these posts?): The majority of gun owners and enthusiasts are good people.

Not all of them. Every group has it's share of parasites.

But, as was mentioned before, walk into a gun store, and EVERYONE there is happy, enthusiastic, and quite genuine. Very similar thing on the internet when you find gun forums. The great majority of people on them are intelligent (or at the very least, not socially retarded), well meaning folk. Why? They aren't afraid of each other. It's something infinitely better than fear.

Respect.

And it's not respect born of fear either. It's genuine, honest, "Hey, I might disagree, but I ain't bashin' ya for it." respect. I don't respect police because they're armed, I respect them because they're out there keepin' things a little safer for me. I don't respect the military 'cuase they've got lots of guns. I respect them because whether people like it or not, they're here for us. They ARE us, they just have the guts to do more than sit at home and complain 'bout how life ain't fair.

That's all there is really. You want a polite society, learn to respect folk. People who keep guns just tend to be more respectful than them what don't. Less to do with the guns I think, and more to do with personal responsibility that they have.

And wow, I need to sleep more. I have a feeling if I check this post later I'm going to wince at ramble-d-y-ness

No worries, there, friend. Not too rambletastic at all. I'm glad there are other people out there who get it. I'm not in the military. Yet. My brother is and my dad's a vet. I plan on joining. Thank you for respecting what they've done.

And you're absolutely right. Go to gun forums, and it is an entirely different world. Really, really impressive how civil people are on there. And helpful, as well. Ask a question and admit you don't know much, and people will give you piles of links and information and tips and advice. It's almost like it's not the internet on some of those forums.