Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[Vault101]

snip.

I think your kind of missing the point

and also youre essentially saying "women charachters often come across as horrible..therefore they should never try!" <- I actually dont think thats true..,,it really doesnt require much effort to make a decent female charachter..it helps when shes not there simply for the veiwing pleasure of adolecant males

current games arnt actually that bad..really, often their protagonists are the same boring acrchetype because its "safe"

with any art form (yeah Im calling it) its always good to branch out and do different things

and alot of the time, when you think about it you could actually replace the charachters in thease things with females...and it would work..RPG's are true examples of this

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

"But I'd rather have more of a variety in my males than have to watch a female on screen" <- do you have some kind of probelm with that?

 

[ShadowsofHope]

I just feel like recently devs have discovered they can hide behind 'historical reasons' and 'It's lore' to explain away pandering to their male audience and excluding women.

It's lore that Conan is a big racist. I doubt they would make a game that included that part of his character so why is Geralt's sexism acceptable? It's the same level of offensive.

I didnt play much of witcher so I cant tell how sexist Geraldt is (it may not be him specifically..jsut the sexy card thing)

witcher is based off of a book...so it couls just be keeping in line with the scource material

yeah that was my point, Conan is racist in the source material doesn't mean they would make him a racist in a game...and it hurts people just as much.

It's something they should have left out in my opinion.

Just to note here briefly, but Geralt is mostly a blank-slate character in terms of values and belief's (within the context of a loner monster slayer) when the player has control of him in both games, he isn't a default misogynist like many of the other non-player males in the game. You can roleplay him as such, yes, and collect all of the "sex cards", but you can also have him be monogamous to Triss/Shani and protect the women npc's from certain males within the setting of the game.

The Witcher universe may be one heavily set in racism, sexism and other nasty concepts, but the game never forces you to accept that stuff as Geralt either. You can actively fight against it too.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

That is the stupidest thing I have heard today. Why would they deliberately try to sell less of there product? Sure they might not go out of their way to make games perfect for both genders but why would you double the programming when most people don't even care?

 

[Krantos]

Plus it's easy to please guys but it might be tricky to please girls. Guys basically want gears of war, ultra masculine men, with big loud guns etc

No. No we don't. I hate Gears of War for that very reason.

I think we need more Morrigan's and Jack's!

Um, more strong female characters? Yes, we do. But not those two. Of the two Jack is more interesting, but still. Morrigan is a royal ***** who insults you for doing anything "nice" even when it directly benefits you. And Jack is, well, psycho. And neither one is apparently able to wear a shirt.

If you want a good example from BioWare games, check out Wynne. She's old, so obviously not sexualized, can kick ass with the best of them, is basically a Zombie, and yet still flirts with both Ohgren and Alistair. She's one of the best examples breaking the female stereotype in gaming. She's strong, not a pin-up, yet still very much a woman.


I think a lot of the problem with females in games is due to the image the industry has of gamers. They perceive us as greasy nerds, hiding in our parents basement, so they think any woman has to have DD cups to keep our attention. I think if the developers realize there is more call for true female characters they'll start showing up more. Good example is FemShep finally making into Mass Effect's Marketing.

 

[Krantos]

Just to note here briefly, but Geralt is mostly a blank-slate character in terms of values and belief's (within the context of a loner monster slayer) when the player has control of him in both games, he isn't a default misogynist like many of the other non-player males in the game. You can roleplay him as such, yes, and collect all of the "sex cards", but you can also have him be monogamous to Triss/Shani and protect the women npc's from certain males within the setting of the game.

The Witcher universe may be one heavily set in racism, sexism and other nasty concepts, but the game never forces you to accept that stuff as Geralt either. You can actively fight against it too.

This is actually very true. The only time Geralt ever "got it on," when I played, was with Triss.

One of the things the game did really well.


Would still love to see a Female Witcher, though. I know it doesn't really sit with the lore that well, but still, it'd be awesome.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Shall we take a look at the logic?

Large male gaming demographic > dev makes game tailored to guys (sexist/boobies everywhere etc)> female gamers say 'hmm okay that's not for me/ I don't feel comfortable' > Large male demographic > game devs say 'see we were right to make it for guys girls don't play games!'.

Repeat.

It's just a horrible self perpetuating cycle :/

There is no stopping the cycle, except for 3 incredibly similar options that leave us in a worse position than before.

uh on topic, yeah now that i think about it, not many games are tailored towards women. I think maybe devs need to stop pandering to horny teenagers (like me), and horny teenagers need to stop buying games because of boobs (like me again).

In terms of protagonists though, I dont think the gender matters too much, I know a lot of female protagonists get slandered for being a "man with boobs", but is that really a bad thing? Should we be defining characters by their gender? I mean im not averse to characters having issues relating to their gender, as long as its not their only defining characteristic.

A good example of this (even though it isnt gender related) is Cortez from Mass Effect 3, he's gay yeah, but no one makes a deal out of it, he's just trying to deal with the death of his husband. I thought it was incredibly well done

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

The thing that I find really ironic about Mass Effect is that the male Shepard comes off as bland, boring and formulaic no matter what he says, but femshep, with the same lines, has a bit of a character just because she's female. I think if the player hadn't been allowed to choose the main character's gender, I would prefer the game with a female protagonist delivering those lines.

As for the rest, I wouldn't go so far as to say that female gamers are being actively dicouraged (they are customers after all), but more like developers stick to what they know works. Games cost a lot to make, and I think they'd rather pander to a well-known and explored market than risk alienating some of that market.

 

[kouriichi]

I dont know what your smoking, but there are ALOT of games that are geared towards both genders. I know just as many women addicted to Skyrim and WoW as i do men.

While yes, most games arnt geared towards women in anyway, i dont think they are "deliberately discouraging" women from playing. Males make up the Majority of the gaming population, and most of the AAA titles are well..... guy games. Not to be sexiest or anything about it, but "EXPLOSIONS, GUNS, DEATH, MASSIVE DESTRUCTION!" are things most of the male population are into. Im not saying women arnt into it, im just saying a guy is more likely to so "OMG THAT GUN IZ AWESOEM!" then a woman.

You know, im just going to stop there before i sound like anymore of an ass.
Long story short, Q-tips dont make good toilet paper, and no, they arnt trying to discourage women.

 

[zefiris]

That is the stupidest thing I have heard today. Why would they deliberately try to sell less of there product?

Because they don't notice the bias. This is very common in our economy, and has a long history of happening. For example, for decades, commercials used to be very, very, very sexist. Even commercials aimed at women. Companies kept doing it, because they thought it worked.

Nobody ever questioned it, nobody thought much about it. It only changed when a LOT of women protested. Then company execs took notice, and realized that, wait a moment, women were people, too, and you could sell more if you catered to them in commercials as well.


You do a basic error in assuming that everyone in business is rational and makes decisions that are always rational. This is false. Economy is not rational, and people in the economy often to mistakes due to habit. The history of this economy is filled with companies that failed because of this.


The handling of female characters is deliberate, because company execs usually believe that women gamers do not exist (false), do not play AAA games (FALSE), and that only insecure male nerds play games (FALSE) and that non-insecure males wouldn't play games (FALSE).

Essentially, the company believes their strategy works properly, but it really misses the point. But because nobody tried otherwise, nobody tries otherwise.


You can observe the same in movies. Look at the Hunger Games. There are MANY reviews that argue that the movie only suceeded because it aimed at men lots, or because there were lotsa male characters and that this somehow compensated for the movie having a heroine (who, they argue, was "too fat" and "too tall"). People still believe that a heroine as the main character makes a movie less successful. This is obviously nonsense, but somehow, American Companies are convinced of it despite all evidence to the contrary. So most people don't try female heroines, which then gets used as an argument that nobody does it, hence it can't be successful. It makes no sense whatsoever.

But this is how an economy works, sadly. Psychology is often more important for business decisions than facts.

 

[Forgetitnow344]

This is where I love(d?) BioWare, particularly in Mass Effect. If your Shepard was a woman... No one really cared. Not even the Krogan. When I headbutted Uvenk, the Shaman thought I was awesome, and this is from a tribal species that keeps its women separated from its men. No one was surprised that I could do awesome things even though I played as a woman, no one talked down to me, no one got all feminist on me and praised me for being the alpha female the galaxy needed, no one ever said, "You go girl!" and no one ever turned on "Bad Reputation" while I was being Renegade FemShep. It was the first time I really felt like a female character was being treated as a perfect equal instead of being looked down upon, patronized, or over-praised because she was a woman.

 

[2fish]

I do agree there is a lack of female main character and an overflow of fugly macho men and sexbots.

Sometimes I wonder whether we will ever be accepted as part of gaming or the very excuse of 'men are our main demographic' is going to discourage women from playing games and therefore not allow the demographic to balance out.

Well gaming is still young and culture is slow to change, I mean look at how long it took to remove arcade ideals from home consoles. I am sure your time will come human female, but you must both wait and send a message to the developers. Sex sells and those games will never go away, but perhaps we can change the direction of the sex sells to characters sell and they are sexy.

Risen 2 has dismissed a playable female out of hand even though their protagonist is 'The nameless hero' and plenty of women were involved in piracy.

This is the only game you bring up as an example I know enough about to discuss but I think Risen 2 is a bad example as it is a continuation of risen (1) and thus we keep the same character. Off topic yes, but hey I wanted to say it. (pronounced Lee-V m-I G-A-me A-loan) *to be read in a high pitched fanboy squeal*

 

[Trippy Turtle]

That is the stupidest thing I have heard today. Why would they deliberately try to sell less of there product?

Because they don't notice the bias. This is very common in our economy, and has a long history of happening. For example, for decades, commercials used to be very, very, very sexist. Even commercials aimed at women. Companies kept doing it, because they thought it worked.

Nobody ever questioned it, nobody thought much about it. It only changed when a LOT of women protested. Then company execs took notice, and realized that, wait a moment, women were people, too, and you could sell more if you catered to them in commercials as well.


You do a basic error in assuming that everyone in business is rational and makes decisions that are always rational. This is false. Economy is not rational, and people in the economy often to mistakes due to habit. The history of this economy is filled with companies that failed because of this.


The handling of female characters is deliberate, because company execs usually believe that women gamers do not exist (false), do not play AAA games (FALSE), and that only insecure male nerds play games (FALSE) and that non-insecure males wouldn't play games (FALSE).

Essentially, the company believes their strategy works properly, but it really misses the point. But because nobody tried otherwise, nobody tries otherwise.


You can observe the same in movies. Look at the Hunger Games. There are MANY reviews that argue that the movie only suceeded because it aimed at men lots, or because there were lotsa male characters and that this somehow compensated for the movie having a heroine (who, they argue, was "too fat" and "too tall"). People still believe that a heroine as the main character makes a movie less successful. This is obviously nonsense, but somehow, American Companies are convinced of it despite all evidence to the contrary. So most people don't try female heroines, which then gets used as an argument that nobody does it, hence it can't be successful. It makes no sense whatsoever.

But this is how an economy works, sadly. Psychology is often more important for business decisions than facts.

Your right but its still not deliberate if they don't notice it.

 

[JohnDoey]

I can't really sympathize with woman going on about lack of gender diversity ,when I barely see any black people in games.

Also there are decent female main chars in games, all we blacks have is Cj.

 

[JohnDoey]

This is where I love(d?) BioWare, particularly in Mass Effect. If your Shepard was a woman... No one really cared. Not even the Krogan. When I headbutted Uvenk, the Shaman thought I was awesome, and this is from a tribal species that keeps its women separated from its men. No one was surprised that I could do awesome things even though I played as a woman, no one talked down to me, no one got all feminist on me and praised me for being the alpha female the galaxy needed, no one ever said, "You go girl!" and no one ever turned on "Bad Reputation" while I was being Renegade FemShep. It was the first time I really felt like a female character was being treated as a perfect equal instead of being looked down upon, patronized, or over-praised because she was a woman.

You know that wasn't intentional right, just Bioware being to lazy to alter any dialogue.

 

[JohnDoey]

Not having games specifically geared towards (you which seems to be what your complaint boils down to) doesn't mean they are trying to tell female gamers to f-off.

 

[Charli]

Well I guess that's the reason I study what I do, the gaming industry lacks from alot of perspectives other than 'white, beta male, nerd'. And ...It's not really surprising you see alot of what you see.

But things will change, slowly but surely it. Like people said, it's not a deliberate thing, It's just negligence. I don't really see it as insensitivity being a female gamer/designer in training myself, but it's up to the ones who've noticed this stagnant trend and disagree with it to make a move in changing it. I really hope I can make a dent one day. I'm no feminist by any stretch but I do have a slight desire to see better written and designed female characters in gaming, ones that aren't relying on physical appeal necessarily, to do all of the talking for them.

Examples exist but... ah whatever when I've drawn up the designs to a level I feel satisfied with I'll show the Escapist first hand one day.

But yeah OP you're not wrong, it's an undertone, and people know it's there.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

The Witcher of course has Geralt whose misogyny is accepted because of the books. Meanwhile if developers made a Conan game would he be portrayed as a racist?

I agree with the rest of your examples, but not Geralt. The life of a Witcher is a life spent being feared, hated and judged. Coupled with their lack of (or at least less prominent) emotions and sterility, Witchers really have no reason to stay tied down. He's not misogynistic, just promiscuous.

It's worth noting that is entirely the player's choice whether they put Geralt into action...

But other than that I completely agree. I spent a few minutes trying to think of a strong, competent female character that I didn't make and I came up short. I think I'd count Elena from Uncharted and Samus from Metroid, but only Samus really fits into the 'power fantasy' role. There's Bayonetta who fulfills both roles, but it's easy for her status to get caught up in pointless debates.

It'll be interesting to see if this changes as the demographic evens out in the future. I'm not even sure if it's deliberate, or whether development teams consist mostly of males...