Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

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MomoElektra

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omega 616 said:
MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
Why is it not the best terminology?
Because it's an insult?
fookolt said:
MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
Why is it not the best terminology?
Because it's an insult?
Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.
Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.
But the people playing those games are not pixels. They have feelings, which get hurt, and some others of them might feel incouraged in their sexist/racist/andsoon beliefs.

That's a bad thing. This hurts real people.

rolfwesselius said:
Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters.
Well except the elf and the succubus
Normal? You do not realize that there might be a problem with what you consider "normal women"?
Like, say, not realizing that women are people and such don't really operate according to simple stereotypes based on gender*?

*Aside from the ones that get pushed on them with sugar/cane by society
 

wench

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May 1, 2008
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MomoElektra said:
Because the source doesn't allow for it? Relevant point, doesn't change anything concerning the sexism, though.
I have yet to hear anyone actually point out what in the game is sexist, despite a lot of people saying it is. Can someone give me something a bit more concrete? I'm willing to concede the point, but I need a bit more to go on than there being a lot of sex and the protagonist being male.

DrVornoff said:
wench said:
Conversely - what would you see as a similar system that would have been a mature way of handling all the sex?
Don't sensationalize it with a fucking achievement system.
Meh, you have fun in your way, and I'll have it in mine. =) Actually, a fucking achievement system is a brilliant description for it!
 

lacktheknack

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Kahunaburger said:
lacktheknack said:
BloatedGuppy said:
lacktheknack said:
In the opening cutscene of the original game, his asking price for saving the girl was some money and a night of sex with her. That tends to rub people the wrong way.
Ahahahaha really? Really? Did they change that for the Enhanced Edition, or did I just miss it?

Because that's pretty funny.

Terrible, of course. So terrible it's hilarious.
<youtube=qtrKfZqokl4>

First thirty seconds. Admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but what are you going to think when the narrator says "It was enough to spend the night with her from dusk 'til dawn"? It's certainly what I thought he was going for.
I think the night they were referring to was the night they spent fighting while he waited for her curse to time out. The intro is basically from a short story, and in that story sex is definitely not part of the deal.
I'm probably projecting. Sorry. :S

My original point isn't moot, though. The whole "sex and trading cards" didn't exactly thrill feminists everywhere.
 

Kahunaburger

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DrVornoff said:
Kahunaburger said:
Tali's character essentially derails into doormat territory when her love subplot starts, because apparently Bioware's worried that the neckbeards won't be attracted to her unless she hero-worships and is completely dependent on their player-character.
Not trying to be contrarian, but in one of my playthroughs I read into it a bit differently. I was playing a Colonist/Sole Survivor Shepard, a guy who had everything he ever loved violently ripped away from him repeatedly. Tali felt like a stranger even among her own people. Each of them saw the other as the only one they could be vulnerable around, the only one who understood what it was like to feel so lonely.

I'll grant you that this may have been in large part my own feverish imagination hard at work, but there you have it.
I think that's a fair reading of your playthrough - I'm just not sure that's the reason Bioware wrote Tali the way they did. Incidentally, I always wished that the games would acknowledge Shep's past more than they did. In particular, I really wished that I had a "you want me to join Cerberus? Maybe you should have thought of that before you fed my buddies to a thresher maw." dialogue option when talking to TIM in ME2.
 

omega 616

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MomoElektra said:
What? I am hurting real people by calling two game characters bitches? I get the feeling you want to be offended, like one of those people who writes letters of complaint to TV stations 'cos they saw the original XBOX advert of the guy flying into his grave.
 

MomoElektra

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wench said:
MomoElektra said:
Because the source doesn't allow for it? Relevant point, doesn't change anything concerning the sexism, though.
I have yet to hear anyone actually point out what in the game is sexist, despite a lot of people saying it is. Can someone give me something a bit more concrete? I'm willing to concede the point, but I need a bit more to go on than there being a lot of sex and the protagonist being male.
I haven't played the game, but I'm not really talking about just The Witcher, but your Tolkien reference.
 

lacktheknack

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rolfwesselius said:
Sorry i meant the term goodie too shoe pansy as a
"charactre with no flaws"
Im editing it sorry.
The term you want is "Mary-Sue". A goodie-two-shoes is someone who dislikes breaking established rules, and lets people around them know it.
 

wench

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rolfwesselius said:
What language? Slovak, Czech, Polish? I just started trying to learn Slovak in the hopes of visiting the old country some day in the not-too-distant future.
Sorry, missed this bit! It's in most of the European languages, original books are in Polish - I read them in Spanish, myself. Really slowly, admittedly, because for some deranged reason they never covered the terminology used in basilisk-slaying in my Spanish courses.
 

MomoElektra

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omega 616 said:
MomoElektra said:
What? I am hurting real people by calling two game characters bitches? I get the feeling you want to be offended, like one of those people who writes letters of complaint to TV stations 'cos they saw the original XBOX advert of the guy flying into his grave.
Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?
 

Kahunaburger

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rolfwesselius said:
Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent. buzzword, much beloved by Fox News and people who don't like it when society tells them not to be bigoted.
Fixed for you.

omega 616 said:
Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.
Would you use a slur against black people to refer to the demoman from Hat Fortress 2? No? Same principle.
 

Meight08

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MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
Why is it not the best terminology?
Because it's an insult?
fookolt said:
MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
Why is it not the best terminology?
Because it's an insult?
Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.
Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.
But the people playing those games are not pixels. They have feelings, which get hurt, and some others of them might feel incouraged in their sexist/racist/andsoon beliefs.

That's a bad thing. This hurts real people.

rolfwesselius said:
Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters.
Well except the elf and the succubus
Normal? You do not realize that there might be a problem with what you consider "normal women"?
Like, say, not realizing that women are people and such don't really operate according to simple stereotypes based on gender*?

*Aside from the ones that get pushed on them with sugar/cane by society
I dont mean it like that!
I mean normal as in non hyper sexualised and acting like a normal woman would.
 

Chemical Alia

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As a lot of other people have said, I think it's a problem of females customers being completely ignored and given no consideration in a game's development, which often results in discouraging women from buying certain games. When a game has so much juvenile pandering or awful characters that it breaks your immersion while playing it, I can understand someone coming to the conclusion that the game wasn't meant for them. Which is a shame, because the game might otherwise offer a lot of fun. It becomes a matter of how much you're able to tolerate the nagging feeling of exclusion.

I do think that more women getting involved in game development and influencing design/story decisions is the right way to address this problem, but it's definitely not going to happen overnight. Even if you've got a great concept art portfolio (for example) and you want to use your skills to make a positive impact, a game studio's not going to hire you unless your body of work is already in line with their style and IPs. You need a lot of experience, and the studio's willingness to explore new ideas. More and more women are working in the game industry every year, but I think it's going to take time before any major shift in how we design female characters is going to occur.

I'm an environment artist, and on the project I work on, that's the way I would like to keep it for now. I have very little interest in the character designs (especially the female ones, with a more or less "design by ability to attract hot cosplayers" approach), but I have to admit that I'm in the minority among the other artists, and the community responds to them well. I wouldn't want to work on character art that I think is retarded or makes me uncomfortable, but I do try to voice my opinions and offer my perspective and best advice whenever I can.
 

wench

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May 1, 2008
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MomoElektra said:
wench said:
MomoElektra said:
Because the source doesn't allow for it? Relevant point, doesn't change anything concerning the sexism, though.
I have yet to hear anyone actually point out what in the game is sexist, despite a lot of people saying it is. Can someone give me something a bit more concrete? I'm willing to concede the point, but I need a bit more to go on than there being a lot of sex and the protagonist being male.
I haven't played the game, but I'm not really talking about just The Witcher, but your Tolkien reference.
I'm not sure if I'm totally misunderstanding you here, but I don't see how having a character be male instead of female in either situation would be sexist. Having fewer women characters can be a definite expression of sexism, or a sexist society, etc... but just having men be in books is not sexist.
 

MomoElektra

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rolfwesselius said:
MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
Why is it not the best terminology?
Because it's an insult?
fookolt said:
MomoElektra said:
omega 616 said:
Why is it not the best terminology?
Because it's an insult?
Not only is it an insult, it's a degrading slur for women.
Oh no, I hope I don't offend those pixels. Those pixels who are nothing, they cannot hear or be offended.

How do you possibly offend the unoffendable?

Not only is it an insult, it's an insult .... the meaning of insult is a degrading slur. You're explaining an explanation.
But the people playing those games are not pixels. They have feelings, which get hurt, and some others of them might feel incouraged in their sexist/racist/andsoon beliefs.

That's a bad thing. This hurts real people.

rolfwesselius said:
Have you even played the witcher 2?
all the woman geralt can have sex with are normal human characters.
Well except the elf and the succubus
Normal? You do not realize that there might be a problem with what you consider "normal women"?
Like, say, not realizing that women are people and such don't really operate according to simple stereotypes based on gender*?

*Aside from the ones that get pushed on them with sugar/cane by society
I dont mean it like that!
I mean normal as in non hyper sexualised and acting like a normal woman would.
Okay... I am inclined to believe you... for the sake of argument.
I'm just not sure you can really distinguish between real hypersexuality and alleged one (doesn't really make that much of a difference either, though).

One major appeal for Geralt in The Witcher, considering it takes place in some medieval like times, is his infertility, yes? The fact that sexwithhim=nopregnancy?

Yes?

You do know that the Catholic Church and others have made a case against women for being too sexual with having pregnancy and birth as a just "punishment" for ages? And not just in the past, bur very much right now?

And don't you think that a game that makes it easy for women of diverse status in life, be it whores or princesses, having sex-without-consequences just because it mainly might be sex-without-consequences, just reinforces the belief that women are just sex maniacs who just don't have sex with you for being a non-alpha male?

This hurts real women because it makes real men feel that women are evil for witholding sex to which they feel entitled to from them.

And this is just one of several possible examples.
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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MomoElektra said:
No, I'm not hurting real people, society is. You act a certain way and do certain things you get called the appropriate thing.

If you choose to take that thing as an insult, that is your call.

Kahunaburger said:
Would you use a slur against black people to refer to the demoman from Hat Fortress 2? No? Same principle.
Why wouldn't I? If I offended a bunch of pixels an angry Scottish black guy isn't going to show up at my door with a massive sword and a shield with a spike on it!

Am I a racist? No, do I say racist things? If they can, why can't I? Isn't that racist? Excluding one group of people from doing something that others can do.
 

MomoElektra

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wench said:
I'm not sure if I'm totally misunderstanding you here, but I don't see how having a character be male instead of female in either situation would be sexist. Having fewer women characters can be a definite expression of sexism, or a sexist society, etc... but just having men be in books is not sexist.
... but just having men be in a book is not sexist? Of course it is. It's just that in our societies the (white, straight) male is the standard so it's really some work to recognize it.

LotR could have just as well worked with a mixed Fellowship of the Ring. But Tolkien was from a time where females were considered to be, if at all, side characters. So that's what he made of them (and he made them well, but still just that and little more).

It's still a terrific story and it's still sexist.

Having a character male itself does not make a character/story sexist. But having the character be only male (because that's how it's perceived to be normal) is very much sexist.

omega 616 said:
MomoElektra said:
No, I'm not hurting real people, society is. You act a certain way and do certain things you get called the appropriate thing.

If you choose to take that thing as an insult, that is your call.
Are you not part of society? Are you not, in fact, a part of one very influental part of society? Are you not, in fact, part of the very part of society that gets to define what is appropriate and what is not?

Privilege is a damn hard thing to see (believe me, I know and I still make mistakes).
I don't fault you for not seeing it.
 

wench

Braids of Fury!
May 1, 2008
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MomoElektra said:
Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?
Look, I'm a massive feminist, but calling a character a ***** in a positive manner doesn't actually hurt real women (if you think it does, feel free to link to the research showing that - and yes, I mean research and not "literary criticism"), and more importantly does not even remotely have a parallel to the effect of nazi propaganda on society. Give me a break. Some guy on the street, screaming "you stupid *****" at his girlfriend? Total sexist, totally affects people around him. Those two are a loooong way apart.

Jack is an awesome *****. Feel free not to like that term, but you're going to have a hard time showing how I'm oppressing all women everywhere by saying that. I mean, how do you feel about ***** magazine? It's hardly a tool of the patriarchy.
 

MomoElektra

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Mar 11, 2012
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wench said:
MomoElektra said:
Yes. You are hurting real people.
If you call characters, real or not, bitches, for liking them or not liking them, you enforce the same thing in real life (reward/punishment for certain types of behaviour).

It's not that much of a stretch, really. Imagine if much of modern tv were nazi propganda.
You'd not claim that this propaganda, shown on tv and newspapers, only hurt the tv and the ink, would you?
Look, I'm a massive feminist, but calling a character a ***** in a positive manner doesn't actually hurt real women (if you think it does, feel free to link to the research showing that - and yes, I mean research and not "literary criticism"),.
I have a hard time believing you because if you were a massive feminist you would leave feeling hurt by the word to those who are affected by it.


and more importantly does not even remotely have a parallel to the effect of nazi propaganda on society. Give me a break. Some guy on the street, screaming "you stupid *****" at his girlfriend? Total sexist, totally affects people around him. Those two are a loooong way apart.

Jack is an awesome *****. Feel free not to like that term, but you're going to have a hard time showing how I'm oppressing all women everywhere by saying that. I mean, how do you feel about ***** magazine? It's hardly a tool of the patriarchy.
I'm not showing you are opressing women. I never tried to do that. I try to show you that you are part of oppressing women, even if you maybe don't want to.

I see you missed my part about the "bad words" being used by a marginalized group as a means of empowerment.