Are men finished? Will our new female overlords be kind?

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magnuslion

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IceStar100 said:
magnuslion said:
IceStar100 said:
Evidencebased said:
vxicepickxv said:
Evidencebased said:
The_root_of_all_evil said:
(snip)
Nope.

If women were the wonderful, delectable angels that we sometimes think they are - why would they flock in droves to watch Twilight?
Yup, we ladies are gonna replace all the men with sparkly vampires! 'Cause they are so romaaaantic and pweeeety and seeee--GHERK HURK. ...Ahem, sorry, just coughing up one of my lungs there.

But nah, I'm fairly sure that men will stick around. At the very least we need them for reprodu--

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=asexual-lizards

Huh.

Well, looks like y'all are fucked. We'll miss you! :D
I was wondering what would happen to humanity when the Y chromosomes stopped getting carried on.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4225769
Huh, cool article! I guess I'm not too surprised that the Y chromosome has a way of maintaining itself; I imagine there is too much evolutionary benefit to sexual reproduction for males to just quietly and sadly die out like that. (The Y chromosome is very wee and silly and adorable though. Aww, who's a tiny lil blob of sexual dimorphism? You are! You are!) ;p

That is part of the reason guys tend to be hit harder/more often with some genetic diseases though; if a gene on the Y chromosome gets messed up there is no "good" copy for the cells to use, and the mutation is expressed. So actually it might be beneficial for the Y chromosome to copy its genes, or at least to pare away as many as possible, because there is less opportunity for Y-linked hereditary diseases. (Aw, who's a clever lil chromosome? You are!) ^^
You forgot one thing Mutation are very help too.
all known mutations have severe negative repercussions. Lrn2science.
also: in these articles we are implying that women will begin to reproduce asexually. any takers on a betting pool for that? anyone that stupid?
Lrn2Science I think you made a wrong turn http://boards.4chan.org/b/ over there.

You do relized Evolution is a mutation right. Not ever mutation turns out like sickle-cell.
Posted that for ya. enjoy the results.

also: show a mutation that is provable that did not have a negative repercussion.
 

Smooth Operator

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That would be very dangerous, for everyone.

No group should be allowed to roam free, no matter how noble we may think someone is we all got some crazy shit brewing in our heads that we believe is completely sound, unchecked these things go very wrong.
 

Virgilthepagan

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I've got a couple of gripes I'd like to throw out here, in addition to what a lot of other people have already mentioned. The first is the definition. The article asks "are men finished", then quietly moderates that phrase to "have the old rules changed for good?"

Well, yes. Laws have been passed to try and stop sexism from playing into hiring policies, but that doesn't mean that we're going to arrive at an absolute social change just because the scales were balanced (and that sadly hasn't even happened yet).

Second, there are no statistics, the article mentions them, but in passing. They don't actually list any figures about college attendance, employment, number of men playing video games, etc. Sure they're probably out there but it's astoundingly poor form for Slate not to actually have them on hand. So I guess what I'm saying is....no?
 

The Gnome King

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Neo Kojiro said:
I'm no good at debates, 'cause i like to cut right to the point. To wit: as long as there are spiders to kill and oil to be changed, men will always have a place in the world.
Is that all men are good for, though? I know you're being humorous, but at the end of that day is that the purpose of men?

To do menial labor and distasteful things women don't wish to do?
 

The Gnome King

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Catchy Slogan said:
I don't get this question. 'Are men finished?' It seems like they think that men are going to be subjugated next, and have all thier rights taken away. Just because women are 'catching up' and not being treated as the 'weaker sex'.

And it's absolutely fine for men to take paternity leave. I know of a few people who alternated maternity and paternity leave to spend the maximum amount of time with children.

Though this could just be personal bias showing through and the fact that I live in the UK.
The problem that they are talking about is that men are becoming less valued than women; not equal - but actually less valued.

Women do better in school because the educational system is set up in many ways to favor them; this is an article from your own UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1055395/Boys-raw-deal-school-education-tilted-favour-girls.html

Studies show that female children are actually more valued in developed nations because families favor female children over male ones.

As for your anecdotal evidence about it being "absolutely fine" for men to take paternal leave, this isn't true in the business world. Try being a top-level exec as a man and stating that you want to take time off for the birth of a child - it's a lot more accepted if you're a woman due to cultural bias.

I'm not being combative, mind you; simply asking questions that I find interested. Full disclosure - I'm a 32 year old man who has been married for 11 years to a woman I would live and die for. I have nothing against women; I simply find this subject fascinating.
 

SinisterGehe

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Well. I don't think things are going to change that much. Because in Finland 75% of our gymnasium (Wikipedia it if you don't know what it is) are women, we are lacking males in the academic school system, since majority of them go to Vocational school.

I think the gaps between genders in US is getting closer to what it is in places like Finland, in which we do not even have separated word for Him and her we just got one "hän".

What I have observed in Finnish schools is that both genders have equal amounts of issues, but most boys get AD/HD meds or Asperger's diagnose, just because it is too hard to accept a simple fact that a child might not be interested about the school.

But back on the subject. Long as there is jobs which require raw physical power oe other so called "men's perks" (Which I question every time they are brought up on the topic).
What I see and hope will be the next step in our gender gaps is the time when both genders are brough closer in legal and social aspects, but as we know biological differences are kind hard to iron out (pardon the word).

I think American feminists should take a visit in to Finland and see how things are here.
 

Termagent

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Sick of these threads, their designed to enrage men and provoke them into saying something stereotypical so they can then pounce onto it or vice versa in other cases. People are people, so the sooner we can just get past all this bullshit it will be for the better.
 

The Gnome King

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
If there was ANY chance of men being finished, then the two World Wars would have eliminated us. Then you count in the fact that most of the resources in the world are held by men. Then you count in that women are still treated as second class citizens in some parts of the world.
One of the issues, however, is that it seems women become more and more "adapted" to society as it moves from the 3rd to the 1st world. In societies where violence is the name of the day and physical strength equals economic and social strength, yes, men are subjugating women.

In 1st world nations such as America, however, a main complaint of women is that they cannot find men as educated as them, and there is still large cultural pressure for a man to earn more than women, etc. Women have equal rights now and some might argue even preference in US and UK/European educational systems; and yet men are still culturally expected to "be men" and be breadwinners for families.

A bit of a dilemma for men - and women - wouldn't you say?

An interesting article in Salon.com focusing on this:

http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/09/04/marriage_and_race_interview

One tidbit:

There are more than 2 million people in jail [in the U.S.], and more than 800,000 of them are black men. More than 1 in 10 black men in their 20s and 30s, which is the age people usually marry, are in jail. Lifetime likelihood may be as high as 1 in 4. Going to jail is not going to boost one's economic prospects.

And:

. In couples where women earn the bulk of the income and the man is either unemployed or earns a marginal income, the man is bothered because he feels like he should be the man and is somehow falling down on the job. Less well known, but equally true is that women are not so happy about men not being able to support the family either. The woman might feel she has the option to work, but she also feels that the man should make money too. If he's not, she thinks less of him. There is good statistical evidence to support that whether a woman is working doesn't influence the likelihood of divorce, but whether a man is working does. So, to put it simply, the unemployed husband equals divorce and the unemployed wife does not.

Seems like men really can't win here, in a way. It's not accepted for a man to "stay home and take care of the children" like we allow women to do it.

Has the end result of feminism been more choices for women; but less for men? Is there a need for a new man-ism movement? ;)
 

The Gnome King

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NeutralDrow said:
Particularly men being held back from traditionally "feminine" pursuits due to supposedly impinging on their worth (implication: those pursuits are inherently lesser), while women are encouraged to drop such and pursue paths traditionally dominated by men exclusively (implication: women can be easily equal to men...they just have to act like them). The cultural issue one would hope would be at hand is more likely to get buried under stereotypes and empty rhetoric.
Really, though? I know plenty of men who wouldn't mind being stay at home dads, but their wives would indeed think less of them. Why don't we think less of women who choose the stay-at-home-mom route? As stated before:

. In couples where women earn the bulk of the income and the man is either unemployed or earns a marginal income, the man is bothered because he feels like he should be the man and is somehow falling down on the job. Less well known, but equally true is that women are not so happy about men not being able to support the family either. The woman might feel she has the option to work, but she also feels that the man should make money too. If he's not, she thinks less of him. There is good statistical evidence to support that whether a woman is working doesn't influence the likelihood of divorce, but whether a man is working does. So, to put it simply, the unemployed husband equals divorce and the unemployed wife does not.

- http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/09/04/marriage_and_race_interview -
 

The Gnome King

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Iron Mal said:
Feminists of the world, I beseech you, sort yourselfs out and weed out these extremist nut-balls who drag down the otherwise noble and well intentioned ideas you stand for.
I agree with you here.

Personally, I don't see why it isn't possible for women having equal rights to also allow more opportunities for men.

Why shouldn't 18-25 year old women in the US need to fill out a selective service draft card?

Why isn't being a stay-at-home-dad considered just as noble of an occupation as being a stay-at-home-mom?
 

The Gnome King

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Mr. 47 said:
No. We're not. What little sexism there is in developed nations will cease, equality will become more apparent else-where. No gender will dominate the other completely. For, well, ages men have dominated women, just because this injustice is being fixed, doesn't mean that women will dominate men. It will stop at full equality, because, really, how could it not? Sexism of woman became an issue because women gained equal rights, unless the equal rights of men are literaly taken away, there will not be 'female overlords' as you state.
However, the rights of men are already being taken away.

The right of men to go through school in a classroom curriculum geared towards their unique needs, for example, instead of being forced into female-centric educational systems and placed on ADHD medication to keep the males "complacent" - this is neither natural nor desired, I would think.

An article from the UK on this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1055395/Boys-raw-deal-school-education-tilted-favour-girls.html
 

BiscuitTrouser

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magnuslion said:
IceStar100 said:
magnuslion said:
IceStar100 said:
Evidencebased said:
vxicepickxv said:
Evidencebased said:
The_root_of_all_evil said:
(snip)
Nope.

If women were the wonderful, delectable angels that we sometimes think they are - why would they flock in droves to watch Twilight?
Yup, we ladies are gonna replace all the men with sparkly vampires! 'Cause they are so romaaaantic and pweeeety and seeee--GHERK HURK. ...Ahem, sorry, just coughing up one of my lungs there.

But nah, I'm fairly sure that men will stick around. At the very least we need them for reprodu--

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=asexual-lizards

Huh.

Well, looks like y'all are fucked. We'll miss you! :D
I was wondering what would happen to humanity when the Y chromosomes stopped getting carried on.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4225769
Huh, cool article! I guess I'm not too surprised that the Y chromosome has a way of maintaining itself; I imagine there is too much evolutionary benefit to sexual reproduction for males to just quietly and sadly die out like that. (The Y chromosome is very wee and silly and adorable though. Aww, who's a tiny lil blob of sexual dimorphism? You are! You are!) ;p

That is part of the reason guys tend to be hit harder/more often with some genetic diseases though; if a gene on the Y chromosome gets messed up there is no "good" copy for the cells to use, and the mutation is expressed. So actually it might be beneficial for the Y chromosome to copy its genes, or at least to pare away as many as possible, because there is less opportunity for Y-linked hereditary diseases. (Aw, who's a clever lil chromosome? You are!) ^^
You forgot one thing Mutation are very help too.
all known mutations have severe negative repercussions. Lrn2science.
also: in these articles we are implying that women will begin to reproduce asexually. any takers on a betting pool for that? anyone that stupid?
Lrn2Science I think you made a wrong turn http://boards.4chan.org/b/ over there.

You do relized Evolution is a mutation right. Not ever mutation turns out like sickle-cell.
Posted that for ya. enjoy the results.

also: show a mutation that is provable that did not have a negative repercussion.
MRSA became immune to most anti biotics through mutation.

The blue eyed gene is in fact a mutation, (google it) no one was blue eyed before a certain point where the mutation went endemic.
 

The Gnome King

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The Rogue Wolf said:
I wish people would realize that men and women have different qualities that sometimes overlap and oftentimes compliment each other. We need to get off of this "Women are Gaia's angels / Men are violent pigs" kick. And for the record, I don't play fantasy football (or even follow sports) nor have I ever been to prison.
I think I mostly agree with you. I'm a married man, and fond of my wife, so obviously I don't hate women - I rather like them.

I don't play fantasy football, and I have never been to prison.

I simply think the pendulum swinging too far in the other way in favor of women, for example, in the classroom - hurts us all.

If we want gender equality, allow men to abort their parental rights as women can and force women to fill out a draft card; as men do. Otherwise we're admitting that women are weaker than men and somehow more valuable.
 

mentalkitty789

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The Gnome King said:
Despite a feminist persistence that women are still somehow subjugated in America, it's clear that even if you think this - women are catching up. And fast. More women attend college now than men, the wage gap is either closing or completely nonexistent if you account for things like women being free to stay home and raise children while it is still culturally unacceptable for men to do so (or to take time off from work to help raise a child) - etc.

Slate magazine is doing an interesting online debate on this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2303488/

Please *don't* reply to the thread with a knee jerk response until you read the link to understand my point for posting this. Thank you in advance. (The last time I tried posting a link 75% of the people couldn't be bothered to click on it, read it, and understand what the heck I was talking about before responding full of outrage and bluster.)

Ahem.

Anyway, Slate is hosting an online debate and while I don't expect everyone here to partake, it's an interesting theory. Some choice tidbits from the article:

Women now earn the majority of college degrees. Men play video games. Women thrive in information-age jobs. Men go to prison. Women hold families together. Men watch football. On Tuesday, Sept. 20, the Slate/Intelligence Squared U.S. live debate series will ask and answer a fundamental question about modern society: Are men finished?

And I think for a long time the question has been... are they? More and more people, in fact, for the first time ever - a majority of people - in the U.S. have stated that they would prefer a female child to a male child for their own family. Schools seem set up to teach to girls, not boys. (Boys are medicated with ADHD medication, apparently a disease that "afflicts" 9% of the boys in America but only 1/50th of that in Japan - must be something in the U.S. water supply.)

If you're interested in Slate's debate, this is another blurb:

The debate proposition is "men are finished." What does that actually mean? A modern, post-industrial economy that seems better suited to women than men has led many experts to wonder if men are being permanently left behind.

So is that how the future will be? Are men finished?

Will our new female overlords be kind? ;)
I don't think 'men are finished' in any sense of the word. We are just behind. If we wanted those things to be acceptable, then simply we blur the gender roles even more. Women have been proactively becoming equal and while men have all the rights we have, our 'image' is a bit too defined. There are too many thing a man is 'supposed to be' a man is 'supposed to act like' and a man is 'supposed to do'. At least from what I observe.
You want things to be different you start to break down the male gender role.
 

Jadak

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Red Scharlach said:
Neo Kojiro said:
... To wit: as long as there are spiders to kill and oil to be changed, men will always have a place in the world.
But the oil is running out and soon the environment with all its little spiders is dead. What are we going to do then?
If the environment is too far gone to support any spiders, I think we have bigger problems...
 

The Gnome King

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Fishdog52 said:
That's not an impressive difference considering men still make on average 20% more than women in the US. Additionally, for every mindless past-time enjoyed by males, there are counterparts for females, and are making up a greater percentage of inmate population compared to the past rates.
Actually, that "statistic" has been heavily debated:

http://antimisandry.com/feminist-misandry/wage-gap-myth-women-execs-actually-earn-more-than-men-not-less-32408.html

http://unitedfamiliesinternational.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/myth-buster-monday-men-earn-more-than-women-for-the-same-job/

http://mediamatters.org/research/200605160002

Women don't earn less than men for doing the same work; it's a feminist talking point that is touted out whenever misandry is pointed out in society.
 

The Gnome King

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Mr Ink 5000 said:
getting a bit tired of this escapist. up there with starting a thread witth "so"
I would, respectfully, point out that responding to a thread is completely a choice you make.

When I think an issue is getting too much attention the last thing I do is add a reply to the thread; ensuring it stays on the "hot topic" list.

Just friendly advice - keep your comments to things and issues that interest you. Gender imbalance and misandry interest me, so I post about them on occasion. So do MMORPGs, so I post on them. I'm not interested in FPS games, so I tend to avoid those threads.