Are men finished? Will our new female overlords be kind?

[dmase]

Something women don't have, balls. This is to be used a completely physical sense. And what I mean are the physical qualities that separate the average man from the average woman. Men will retain leaderships roles for many years to come partially because of cronyism but also because men of the sapien variety are built to try and be alpha's. Society can groom out a lot of things but not certain aspects of our biology.

Of course when it comes to modern times its not that men will always be the dominant ones its that more often then not men have the physical advantage for being dominant. Our upbringing and our own choices and life could of course change that.

 

[MagnetoHydroDynamics]

Something women don't have, balls. This is to be used a completely physical sense. And what I mean are the physical qualities that separate the average man from the average woman. Men will retain leaderships roles for many years to come partially because of cronyism but also because men of the sapien variety are built to try and be alpha's. Society can groom out a lot of things but not certain aspects of our biology.

Of course when it comes to modern times its not that men will always be the dominant ones its that more often then not men have the physical advantage for being dominant. Our upbringing and our own choices and life could of course change that.

That is statistically unsound.

And seriously, this topic is nonsensical.

EDIT: To clarify: Men will never become "smaller" or "weaker" or "second class." If anything the genders will only get more equal.
Also, remember that your sexual identity is more than your gonads.
Specifically: Sexual Expression, Sexual Orientation and Psychological Gender play a role too.

 

[dmase]

Something women don't have, balls. This is to be used a completely physical sense. And what I mean are the physical qualities that separate the average man from the average woman. Men will retain leaderships roles for many years to come partially because of cronyism but also because men of the sapien variety are built to try and be alpha's. Society can groom out a lot of things but not certain aspects of our biology.

Of course when it comes to modern times its not that men will always be the dominant ones its that more often then not men have the physical advantage for being dominant. Our upbringing and our own choices and life could of course change that.

That is statistically unsound.

And seriously, this topic is nonsensical.

EDIT: To clarify: Men will never become "smaller" or "weaker" or "second class." If anything the genders will only get more equal.
Also, remember that your sexual identity is more than your gonads.
Specifically: Sexual Expression, Sexual Orientation and Psychological Gender play a role too.

"Specifically: Sexual Expression, Sexual Orientation and Psychological Gender play a role too."

Exactly what I was getting at, I wasn't saying men are going to get shorter so they won't be as dominant. Balls or testies is the location where testosterone, one of the biggest drivers in sexual identity, is produced. That is why I used them as an example because obviously if I was being entirely serious I probably wouldn't have said balls. Did I make that sound anymore scientific then the original post?

 

[The Gnome King]

that's the key phrase here. Whatever oppression and devaluing men face has been self-inflicted by the patriarchy. That's why i became a feminist, because i felt the social norms defining masculinity were marginalizing my identity as a man. Hell, he's singing about kings and castles; how many feminists do you think there were in medieval Europe? Women certainly weren't in charge then.

This the problem i have with most "men's rights" movements; they tend to blame overzealous feminism for all their woes and completely ignore the larger historical context.

I think you completely missed the sarcastic tone of the song.

Re-read the end points to get at what he was trying to say.

 

[amanda-lorian]

If women were the wonderful, delectable angels that we sometimes think they are - why would they flock in droves to watch Twilight?

Because, quite honestly, a lot of us women aren't smart when it comes to stupid obsession and some of our infatuations with the human appearance.

Oh I know that, it's just when we see a young girl in glasses playing a computer game then suddenly she's the gestalt of Marie Curie, Florence Nightingale, Marilyn Monroe and our parents.

It's good to know that sometimes they're just as clueless as we are.
That's why when we say "You look nice" we actually mean it. (with the obvious caveat of "You've taken twenty times longer than I ever would, can we PLEASE go and eat now?")

Bahaha. xD I don't know too many friends who stay in the bathroom or in front of a mirror for THAT long, not even I do that, but I do agree, that's incredibly annoying. We're goin' out to eat, not a photo shoot! >.<

 

[Nickolai77]

I think what's going on is a bit more complicated than "women are taking over teh world, oh noes!" We're not moving towards a matriarchal society, but we've moved away from a patriarchal one.

The reason why more women are getting degrees is because, in an equal education system, girls mature quicker than boys, they pay attention in class, recognise the importance of education before boys, and get the good grades that puts them on good stead for higher education. However, just because girls get more degrees i don't think this necessarily means women are going to dominate society.

Men in general however, are competitive and also have an affinity with the practical sciences such as physics, maths, engineering etc, i.e, the useful degrees. In the long-run, men probably find employment easier because a higher proportion have science-related degrees, and once they get in jobs, man's general competitiveness means they advance up the career ladder quickly. Plus, women have to go on maternity leave, and indeed due to gender expectations and perhaps their nature, more women will be inclined to take part-time work or not work at all so they can raise the children. Men arn't expected to do this, and so their avarage wages will be higher.

There are issues concerning the masculine gender roll, which have cropped up after the feminism movements in the latter 20th century. There's a conflict between wherever old gender expectations should be retained or abandoned because they are old memes from the patriarchal society we have abandoned. Some patriarchal memes are abandoned, others retained for various reasons. Basically, there is confusion surrounding male gender expectations, but i don't regard such a problem as being very disastrous.

 

[Evidencebased]

Well, I can't really argue with that one. Unfortunately it's one of those areas where not an awful lot can actually be done. Things are also not helped by the fact that if ever anyone suggests how women might take measures to protect themselves they are accused of blaming the victim. In an ideal world, women should be able to dress and act the way they want without fear of being sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, there are people out there that would take advantage of opportunities to do so, so it may be necessary for women to take precautionary measures.

There's plenty to be done, it's just that there's not much more women can be doing to stop it. At some point, men have to take responsibility and stop raping people. When it comes to rape prevention there's way too much emphasis on the victim's actions. As a society we have a tendency to throw up our hands and declare rape an inescapable evil that women have to structure their lives in order to avoid. That's BS. What we should be doing is looking at what drives people to commit rape and figure out how to stop (or at least reduce) it.

In particular, there's absolutely no evidence that what a woman wears has any effect on her chances of being raped. When people suggest "well, if she hadn't been dressed that way...", that's victim blaming.

I think that one of the first things that needs to change is the idea that rape is something that happens while women are walking around by some shadowy figure who preys on those that are scantily-clad. To my mind, the most common kind of rape is when people meet in a club/bar and go back to someone's house, and the woman doesn't want to do anything but the man feels that he's been led on.

Now, I completely agree with you that the focus needs to be on stopping the mindset that men think they're entitled to sex in this situation, and to make it seem obvious that women are entitled to say no.

However, in these situations there are a lot of things that women could do to avoid the situation. I don't consider that blaming the victim, because obviously nobody deserves to be raped. But unfortunately we do live in a world where this kind of thing happens, so anything that people can do to minimise risks, I think, should be done.

There isn't a huge amount more that women can do to minimize the risk of being raped short of actually hating men and refusing to be alone with them. And I don't think many people would enjoy that, least of all heterosexual women.

It's been well established that clothing and physical attractiveness have pretty much no effect on your risk of rape or harassment: in fact, rapists usually target people who are vulnerable or isolated, rather than "too sexy" or scantily clad. Many rape victims are very young (ie. children) or quite old, many are physically or mentally disabled (and face a huge amount of rape and molestation from their caretakers), many are drunk or drugged or even asleep in their own beds. Many are clothed in T-shirts and sweatpants or even in military uniform, or in headscarves and hijab. Covering up doesn't help: women in Egypt, for example, dress much more conservatively than in most of the US but Egypt has the highest rate of street harassment in the world; and I'm sure that the rape rate on nude beaches isn't 100%!

When a rapist claims that his victim was dressed provocatively and that's why he raped her, that is a blatant lie; most rapists don't need to rape women to get laid, nor are they overcome with lust, but in fact they specifically set out intending to rape -- that is the kind of sex that gets them off. A study of college students found that the vast majority of on-campus rapes were committed by a small number of repeat offenders, who would go to parties purposefully looking for girls who seemed drunk or timid or otherwise were not likely to be taken seriously if they reported a rape, and then target those girls. If she's dressed "provocatively" that's a bonus, because if the rape is reported then the rapist can use that as a defense and often get away with a warning or a "not guilty."

An important way to reduce rape is to learn about how rape works (it's about power and control, not sex) and how rapists choose their victims (carefully, and with a purpose) and how society lets them get away with it (accepting their lies about "too sexy!" or "well, that 13-year-old came onto me!") Instead of telling women never to drink, or never to wear tight clothes, it's much better to try and change our culture so that rape victims aren't told "well, you must have been acting like a slut" and rapists aren't high-fived or let off the hook because "boys will be boys."

 

[Woodsey]

So there'll be more women doing stuff. So?

Why is this even worthy of discussion (beyond saying, "its about fucking time")?

 

[Mr.Squishy]

BRB sharpening my scimitars and refusing the spider queen.

 

[b3nn3tt]

Well, I can't really argue with that one. Unfortunately it's one of those areas where not an awful lot can actually be done. Things are also not helped by the fact that if ever anyone suggests how women might take measures to protect themselves they are accused of blaming the victim. In an ideal world, women should be able to dress and act the way they want without fear of being sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, there are people out there that would take advantage of opportunities to do so, so it may be necessary for women to take precautionary measures.

There's plenty to be done, it's just that there's not much more women can be doing to stop it. At some point, men have to take responsibility and stop raping people. When it comes to rape prevention there's way too much emphasis on the victim's actions. As a society we have a tendency to throw up our hands and declare rape an inescapable evil that women have to structure their lives in order to avoid. That's BS. What we should be doing is looking at what drives people to commit rape and figure out how to stop (or at least reduce) it.

In particular, there's absolutely no evidence that what a woman wears has any effect on her chances of being raped. When people suggest "well, if she hadn't been dressed that way...", that's victim blaming.

I think that one of the first things that needs to change is the idea that rape is something that happens while women are walking around by some shadowy figure who preys on those that are scantily-clad. To my mind, the most common kind of rape is when people meet in a club/bar and go back to someone's house, and the woman doesn't want to do anything but the man feels that he's been led on.

Now, I completely agree with you that the focus needs to be on stopping the mindset that men think they're entitled to sex in this situation, and to make it seem obvious that women are entitled to say no.

However, in these situations there are a lot of things that women could do to avoid the situation. I don't consider that blaming the victim, because obviously nobody deserves to be raped. But unfortunately we do live in a world where this kind of thing happens, so anything that people can do to minimise risks, I think, should be done.

There isn't a huge amount more that women can do to minimize the risk of being raped short of actually hating men and refusing to be alone with them. And I don't think many people would enjoy that, least of all heterosexual women.

It's been well established that clothing and physical attractiveness have pretty much no effect on your risk of rape or harassment: in fact, rapists usually target people who are vulnerable or isolated, rather than "too sexy" or scantily clad. Many rape victims are very young (ie. children) or quite old, many are physically or mentally disabled (and face a huge amount of rape and molestation from their caretakers), many are drunk or drugged or even asleep in their own beds. Many are clothed in T-shirts and sweatpants or even in military uniform, or in headscarves and hijab. Covering up doesn't help: women in Egypt, for example, dress much more conservatively than in most of the US but Egypt has the highest rate of street harassment in the world; and I'm sure that the rape rate on nude beaches isn't 100%!

When a rapist claims that his victim was dressed provocatively and that's why he raped her, that is a blatant lie; most rapists don't need to rape women to get laid, nor are they overcome with lust, but in fact they specifically set out intending to rape -- that is the kind of sex that gets them off. A study of college students found that the vast majority of on-campus rapes were committed by a small number of repeat offenders, who would go to parties purposefully looking for girls who seemed drunk or timid or otherwise were not likely to be taken seriously if they reported a rape, and then target those girls. If she's dressed "provocatively" that's a bonus, because if the rape is reported then the rapist can use that as a defense and often get away with a warning or a "not guilty."

An important way to reduce rape is to learn about how rape works (it's about power and control, not sex) and how rapists choose their victims (carefully, and with a purpose) and how society lets them get away with it (accepting their lies about "too sexy!" or "well, that 13-year-old came onto me!") Instead of telling women never to drink, or never to wear tight clothes, it's much better to try and change our culture so that rape victims aren't told "well, you must have been acting like a slut" and rapists aren't high-fived or let off the hook because "boys will be boys."

While I agree that lots needs to be done to alert people to how serious rape is, and to try and reduce the numbers, I disagree that there isn't much women can do as precautionary measures.

I am fully aware of how ridiculous the arguments regarding what women wear are, so I'll not both with them, suffice to say that I agree with you. However, women could make sure that they are always with friends when out drinking, and all of them could make sure that the women don't go off with men. If you've got a group of people looking out for you then it's less likely that you'll be taken advantage of. I'd also say that women shouldn't go home with guys they meet when drunk.

Again, this is not to say that women are to blame for being raped, because that's a digusting mindset. But that doesn't mean that they can't reduce the risk.

 

[Hipster Chick]

In terms of being brutalised, more men are the victims of domestic abuse than women. And in the majority of cases where men are the aggressor, the violence is actually reciprocal, so both partners are being abused there.

I'm just going to focus in on this one, since the others are, as you said, complex at best...

RAPE.

Well, I can't really argue with that one. Unfortunately it's one of those areas where not an awful lot can actually be done. Things are also not helped by the fact that if ever anyone suggests how women might take measures to protect themselves they are accused of blaming the victim. In an ideal world, women should be able to dress and act the way they want without fear of being sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, there are people out there that would take advantage of opportunities to do so, so it may be necessary for women to take precautionary measures.

How about, say, telling men not to rape? Because ultimately, women can never solve that by themselves; it's almost entirely up to you all.

 

[Evidencebased]

snip

While I agree that lots needs to be done to alert people to how serious rape is, and to try and reduce the numbers, I disagree that there isn't much women can do as precautionary measures.

I am fully aware of how ridiculous the arguments regarding what women wear are, so I'll not both with them, suffice to say that I agree with you. However, women could make sure that they are always with friends when out drinking, and all of them could make sure that the women don't go off with men. If you've got a group of people looking out for you then it's less likely that you'll be taken advantage of. I'd also say that women shouldn't go home with guys they meet when drunk.

Again, this is not to say that women are to blame for being raped, because that's a digusting mindset. But that doesn't mean that they can't reduce the risk.

Sure, yeah, I'm not going to argue that women shouldn't be careful and watch each others' backs. My friends and I do that all the time; in fact, I think most women try to be cautious (or at least they've certainly been told time and again what to do and not do, even if they don't live up to it 100%.) But where it gets victim-blaming is when the precautions fail or a girl forgets/screws up/gets tired of worrying all the time and then someone rapes her -- and the first response is "well, why did you let that happen? Why were you drinking? Why did you wear that skirt?" and the like.

It's like looking at a bunch of lions circling a group of wildebeest and yelling out things like "hey wildebeest! Bunch up more! Keep your horns low! Gah, don't expose your rump like that you dumb critter!" and then when one of them eventually gets dragged off you say "well of course that lion ate you, you left your drink unattended!" (yeah, that metaphor broke down... ;p) The real problem is that guys are told it's okay to act like lions and try to pick off the young or stupid or weak (or just plain unlucky) prey -- the problem is the whole model of "sex = hunting" where women have to take extraordinary measures to protect themselves from men who don't consider them equal humans beings deserving respect. Just because a guy manages to drag a girl off into the underbrush and rip her intestines out (hey, my metaphor's back!) doesn't mean she did anything wrong; it means that that guy is a rapist predator and his gut-chomping behavior is what should be focused on.

The otherwise-reasonable advice of "watch your drink" etc. becomes victim-blaming because the whole culture around rape and sex is focused on blaming the victim, and the advice just feeds into that. Rape trials turn into careful analyses of exactly how foolish and delicious the wildebeest was, rather than on how viciously and cheerfully the lion attacked her. If our culture reacted to rapes by turning to the rapist and saying "what the hell, guy? Why would you do that??" instead of asking the victim how she "let" it happen, then women would probably be less defensive about hearing the same advice again.

(And if you think that "change the entire culture" sounds like a frustrating task... YOU'RE TELLING ME! XD)

 

[Caverat]

Most Western men maybe, but it's still happens to a huge number of women in Saharan Africa, especially around the Sudan.

As for the wage gap and your bullshit about maternity leave, which you seem to assume all women take, read it and weep: http://mediamatters.org/research/200605160002

And does the lack of any comment mean your conceding the rape issue to me then?

Read it, not weeping. That article didn't mention maternity leave at all that I could read, I did only read the article you linked to, maybe that was the problem. Whatever, it was an article debunking a man's claim that the pay difference was a myth.

I did not say all women take maternity leave, didn't even insinuate so. I merely stated that women are more likely to take maternity leave than men are to take paternity leave, just offering that as a reason for why the pay difference exists.

You make it sound like there is something to be won regarding rape. No, I didn't concede anything. Are women more likely to be raped? Definitely.

Rape isn't about sex, it's about power over another. There are numerous studies where individuals are put in positions of power over others, and regardless of gender, people will often begin to abuse that authority.

Classic example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Women, and admittedly less often men, are targeted by cowardly individuals(Remember: Individuals commit crimes, blaming an entire segment of the population for such is idiotic) who happen to be male, and desire to have power over another, and it just so happens that humanity is a species where the male members are, on average, larger and stronger than the female. I agree more needs to be done, legally, rape trials need to be treated like murder trials, the bastard's face shown for all to see, the humiliation and shame, and wrongness of his existence. Anyone convicted of any sex crime should receive the same media attention that pedophiles receive upon their eventual release.

Do women walk around more afraid of being physically accosted than men? Who knows, to me that would seem to be a circumstance based fear regardless of gender. A man walking alone at night through a neighbourhood with a history of swarmings has as much to fear as a woman.

 

[Riobux]

(Boys are medicated with ADHD medication, apparently a disease that "afflicts" 9% of the boys in America but only 1/50th of that in Japan - must be something in the U.S. water supply.)

This isn't a sex concern, but rather a cultural concern, with such a silly amount of factors it's not even worth going the full mile to address it.

 

[yellingatpixels]

I don't mean to sound cocksure (sorry, but I had to get that obvious pun out the way...), but I'd say these studies and articles are nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to feminism (I know the OP said not to say stuff like that... but the truth's the truth!).

More women may be getting proper educations these days, but there's still a horrendous lack gender equality, especially in the higher echelons of society. 9 of the top 10 richest people in the world are men. Few of the most powerful nations on Earth have ever had a female leader, off the top of my head, only Britain, Germany and India have had female executives. Almost all armed forces practice some form of gender discrimination.

Talk of women "taking over" is nothing more than fuel for the hate-machine that would rather have us all living back in the middle-ages...

word.

Srsly: what this guy said.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

If women were the wonderful, delectable angels that we sometimes think they are - why would they flock in droves to watch Twilight?

You seem like you have bit of a chip on your shoulder there... Break up or something?

Women now earn the majority of college degrees. Men play video games. Women thrive in information-age jobs. Men go to prison. Women hold families together. Men watch football. On Tuesday, Sept. 20, the Slate/Intelligence Squared U.S. live debate series will ask and answer a fundamental question about modern society: Are men finished?

OT: Whoever wrote that is just baiting for article views.

Men aren't finished. What's happening is the world is becoming a place were anyone from any race, gender or class can be successful. That's why I like Capitalism and admire American history.

Human decency 1, shitty tabloid 0.

 

[yellingatpixels]

someone else pointed out tthis point: I really think that this is a good thing too... for men!

Look guys: if the patriarchy goes away... you don't HAVE to be the breadwinner! You can stay at home with the kids if you choose to! You can do what your heart's desire is, not what society tells you you must be!


Rejoice, and embrace feminism.


We're waiting. And yes... we do have cookies.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

I don't mind
*puts a dog collar and leash around his neck*
which girl wants to be my master???

Yeah that was my first thought to. This does not upset me.

 

[cobra_ky]

that's the key phrase here. Whatever oppression and devaluing men face has been self-inflicted by the patriarchy. That's why i became a feminist, because i felt the social norms defining masculinity were marginalizing my identity as a man. Hell, he's singing about kings and castles; how many feminists do you think there were in medieval Europe? Women certainly weren't in charge then.

This the problem i have with most "men's rights" movements; they tend to blame overzealous feminism for all their woes and completely ignore the larger historical context.

I think you completely missed the sarcastic tone of the song.

Re-read the end points to get at what he was trying to say.

i get what he was trying to say, he's saying that women and children's lives are held in higher regard than men's. i'm saying that men are responsible for upholding that double standard.

An important way to reduce rape is to learn about how rape works (it's about power and control, not sex) and how rapists choose their victims (carefully, and with a purpose) and how society lets them get away with it (accepting their lies about "too sexy!" or "well, that 13-year-old came onto me!") Instead of telling women never to drink, or never to wear tight clothes, it's much better to try and change our culture so that rape victims aren't told "well, you must have been acting like a slut" and rapists aren't high-fived or let off the hook because "boys will be boys."

It's also important to create a culture of positive consent. a lot of guys unknowingly coerce others into having sex because they don't know what real, enthusiastic consent actually looks like.

I quoted you for being a twat. Woman can easily rape men as much as a man can rape a woman.
http://naijan.com/robber-kept-as-sex-slave-for-3-days-by-russian-female-shop-owner/
There, there is my point, you can not stop being a twat. Saying that only MEN can rape is wrong, when the other way around can also happen.

well it's a good thing no one ever actually said that, then.

it also would have been a good thing if you hadn't launched an uncalled for personal attack.

 

[Aprilgold]

I quoted you for being a twat. Woman can easily rape men as much as a man can rape a woman.
http://naijan.com/robber-kept-as-sex-slave-for-3-days-by-russian-female-shop-owner/
There, there is my point, you can not stop being a twat. Saying that only MEN can rape is wrong, when the other way around can also happen.

well it's a good thing no one ever actually said that, then.

it also would have been a good thing if you hadn't launched an uncalled for personal attack.

I'm sorry for any offense, but from what I understood of her comment, she was saying that woman could not possibly rape, my point is that new article. A personal attack would be saying that *note this is not serious, and only a example* that I was going to shoot her, of course I did not nor did I say I was going to. It was uncalled for because it was only showing a article is, within itself, uncalled for. So you either didn't understand or you took some offense, either case, that was not directed towards you, and sorry if you did.