Are the descendents of cultures who have been treated poorly playing victim?

[MyFooThurTS]

Worth noting about white cultures is that we were all (95% of us at least) enslaved by the upper classes for thousands of years in slavery and serfdom,

Everyone in history have been mistreated by someone, except the powerful (though there are exceptions to this one too)

So yes, unless you were personally mistreated, you don't have a legitimate complaint by virtue of existing and belonging to the wronged group.

That's not very good excuse for perpetuating social and cultural inequities.

You're damn right, so it's a good thing that he/she was not, in any way, suggesting that it was. Also, just a tip, friend, don't just tell people that their arguments are bad; explain why.

not to mention as massive numbers of political prisoners up until the late 1980s.

So, did the native Africans come and take over your land and take your children?

So the abuse his ancestors suffered was not from alien occupation... his point still stands. Unless you're saying that what happened to his ancestors was not as bad, well then you're right. But it was still abuse and it was still suffering, it simply wasn't abuse from a different ethnic group. What you're doing here is providing an example of suffering on a greater scale to discredit the significance of such an example on a smaller scale while paying no attention to the fact that the significance of suffering is not affected by matters of statistics.


Consider this, buddy, consider the black plague, consider the economic turmoil left behind by civil wars, consider any form of inflicted suffering initiated by either non-human causes or by people of the same nationality and ethnicity. What divides the suffering of these people from the suffering of one ethnic group at the hands of another ethnic group?
The answer is someone to blame. Indigenous Australians are fortunate, and yes, I do dare say it, they are fortunate for the capacity to shift blame away from themselves. For all that I cruelly asserted it as a fortune it is also, definitely, a curse in disguise; it has robbed the aboriginal people of the motivation to attend to their own concerns, it falls into the mindset of aboriginal culture that the white settlers must undo their damage, but there is only so much we can do and, ultimately, the power to rise above social issues rests finally - after we have done all we can - in the hands of the aboriginal people. Aboriginals are Australians just as the new settlers are Australians, yet the blame Aboriginals continue to rest on the Whites is endlessly increasing the divide between our cultures, creating a clearer distinction between what is an Aboriginal Australian and what is a White Australian.
We are all people just the same, the nepotistic aggravation ethnic groups hold against each other regarding whose ancestors did what is only making this fact less obvious.

 

[snowpuppy]

hopefully we will all have enough sex one day that we will forget we are black, white or what ever because we will all have such lovley diversece culture.

 

[zarix2311]

As an ex-forum moderator on another forum, I feel discriminated against that this thread isn't in Religion And Politics. I feel like my equal rights are being trampled on and someone should do something about it, so I don't have to.

I don't know how to do that.

It's okay, you can't. A moderator can, and maybe, if we're lucky, one will.

In the meantime you might enjoy this short essay, which seems relevant:

I liked that. Not very close to how I feel, but I really liked it.

 

[Jessta]

So, did the native Africans come and take over your land and take your children?

So basically your saying those things don't count because it was done to them by people of the same skin color? Ooooooooor perhaps because of the same culture? I don't get that point of the argument in the least, what does skin color or where someone comes from matter in the overall scheme of things? they still had their lands taken and their woman and children torn away from them, hell give the Native Americans another 1000 years of development and the ability to cross the sea they probably would have done just that, its not like they didn't fight or kill for pointless things in their culture.
The only thing that truly makes it so we aren't the same is how we treat it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

but I mean for some reason this affects Aboriginal people more than any other part of Australian society, why is this? is it an after effect of all the abuse they recived? is there also somthing in the culutre that doesnt encourage them to be anythign more?
(then again Like I said its all similar to any "low socio ecenomic"" group in society

I'd say it's a greater access to government payments, and a lesser access to DoCS et al. Put people of any ethnic group or history in that situation and the results would be the same, IMHO.

 

[Still Life]

they should strive to break free of this mould and not let it hold back advancment

Unfortunately, it is not as simple as just 'breaking the mold'. Factor generational cycles and sub-par values which have been normalized through institutionalized and social discrimination and sprinkle in an all pervading sense of dis-empowerment. Is it any wonder that those Aboriginal people don't value things like you do?

Step on their side of the fence and it's like living in another world where the neighbors have come and booted them out of their own home.

also who else hates people who say: "oh, well by grandad was half aboridgional so I am better then you, FUCK they are everywhere.

In what context? I could argue that this has historically worked both ways due to racism.

 

[Still Life]

Worth noting about white cultures is that we were all (95% of us at least) So, did the native Africans come and take over your land and take your children?

So basically your saying those things don't count because it was done to them by people of the same skin color? Ooooooooor perhaps because of the same culture? I don't get that point of the argument in the least, what does skin color or where someone comes from matter in the overall scheme of things? they still had their lands taken and their woman and children torn away from them, hell give the Native Americans another 1000 years of development and the ability to cross the sea they probably would have done just that, its not like they didn't fight or kill for pointless things in their culture.

Can you quote my post properly so that I know which point you're addressing?

 

[Gigano]

...A lot of you have said "You have no right to act victimized if you YOURSELF were never mistreated personally." I would say that that is naive Bullshit. Racial scars run deep, and heal slowly. It's not an individual thing and it cannot be rationalized as such....

That's as much - or more - an ideological question than a factual one. That these things undoubtedly do factually play a large part in shaping the mutual hatreds and conflicts between various groups doesn't mean that they should, or that they should be acknowledged as legitimate and justified.

It's ultimately a conflict of Individualism vs. Nationalism, of individual human rights and responsibilities vs. ethnic, racial, cultural, and religious group mentalities, of basic philosophical disagreements over whether man is a free and autonomous participant in a social contract, or just another gear in greater wholes.

You could perhaps say I'm naive in adopting the views of an ideology - secular liberal individualism - which have so little factual basis in how humans currently interact; I'll however counter that by asking where you think and hope your hatred of Pakistanis will lead, what good it will do you and your countrymen, what constructiveness and positive perspective there is to it?

 

[Jonluw]

As an ex-forum moderator on another forum, I feel discriminated against that this thread isn't in Religion And Politics. I feel like my equal rights are being trampled on and someone should do something about it, so I don't have to.

I don't know how to do that.

It's easy. PM a moderator (like Greyfox) and say something like "wups, posted a thread in the wrong section, can you move it?"

Sneep.

Agreed.

 

[MyFooThurTS]

40 Years ago (to the month actually), the people of Bangladesh were subjected to Genocide on a nation-wide scale by Pakistan. Millions were killed especially our intellectuals, setting us (as a nation) back by 50 years before we were even a year old.

Do Bangladeshi's have the right to hate Pakistanis every opportunity they get? I would say ABSOLUTELY. I do. And I was born 20 years after the War.
A lot of you have said "You have no right to act victimized if you YOURSELF were never mistreated personally." I would say that that is naive Bullshit. Racial scars run deep, and heal slowly. It's not an individual thing and it cannot be rationalized as such....

Not going to say much here but I'd just like to add that the quote "Racial scars run deep, and heal slowly" is largely indicative of emotional irrationality at play. Everyone understands that it hurts, that we do feel emotional connections to our ancestors, the validity of those emotional connections as an argument for the right to hate the descendants of someone your ancestor had fair cause to hate, meaning the right to hate someone your ancestor did not have fair cause to hate, does not exist. I understand that you might bear hatred for people still living who did terrible things to your people and, by all means, hate those people, but do not hate their children.

 

[Still Life]

don't just tell people that their arguments are bad; explain why.

I wasn't.

I was making a point based upon what I understood from the post. He/she has elucidated further (in another post) and I am satisfied with their logic.

Indigenous Australians are fortunate, and yes, I do dare say it, they are fortunate for the capacity to shift blame away from themselves. For all that I cruelly asserted it as a fortune it is also, definitely, a curse in disguise; it has robbed the aboriginal people of the motivation to attend to their own concerns,

I agree with this.

yet the blame Aboriginals continue to rest on the Whites is endlessly increasing the divide between our cultures, creating a clearer distinction between what is an Aboriginal Australian and what is a White Australian.

We are all people just the same, the nepotistic aggravation ethnic groups hold against each other regarding whose ancestors did what is only making this fact less obvious.

Australia is multicultural, is it not?

 

[Kinokohatake]

So I used to live in an all white neighborhood and had the opinion of they are poor because they want to be. Then I moved into a poor black neighborhood. I have been forced into the welfare system because I was poor. And while I can say that some people don't want things to change, I can honestly say that we have it pretty bad. Everything is more expensive in a poor neighborhood, the police are worse in poor neighborhoods, no one cares about people in poor neighborhoods, and the schools are worse.

And to answer the first question-

Slavery
Slavery Ends
Segregation
Police Brutality
Segregation Ends
Discrimination


And now we find ourselves in the current generation. After the civil rights, no one trusts the police. The police don't like their jobs and treat the poor like animals. So we don't call the police, leaving many crimes in our area unpunished.

I have issues with police...

 

[MyFooThurTS]

yet the blame Aboriginals continue to rest on the Whites is endlessly increasing the divide between our cultures, creating a clearer distinction between what is an Aboriginal Australian and what is a White Australian.

We are all people just the same, the nepotistic aggravation ethnic groups hold against each other regarding whose ancestors did what is only making this fact less obvious.

Australia is multicultural, is it not?

I'm not sure what you're saying by this but if you're referring to the fact that most of my discussion was in reference only to White and Aboriginal Australians then I'll explain that this is because, as far as my understanding goes, Aboriginal Australians bear a far greater level of resentment for Caucasians than any other ethnic or cultural group in Australia.

 

[Diablo27]

Some of them are, some of them aren't. One person cannot set an example of what an entire race/gender acts like.

I've heard some black people say that nobody tried to help the slaves (or it might have only been the dude in Lethal Weapon) and I'm thinking "Naw it's not like there was any civil war about it right?"

 

[Still Life]

yet the blame Aboriginals continue to rest on the Whites is endlessly increasing the divide between our cultures, creating a clearer distinction between what is an Aboriginal Australian and what is a White Australian.

We are all people just the same, the nepotistic aggravation ethnic groups hold against each other regarding whose ancestors did what is only making this fact less obvious.

Australia is multicultural, is it not?

I'm not sure what you're saying by this but if you're referring to the fact that most of my discussion was in reference only to White and Aboriginal Australians then I'll explain that this is because, as far as my understanding goes, Aboriginal Australians bear a far greater level of resentment for Caucasians than any other ethnic or cultural group in Australia.

Let me re-frame:

We are not all the 'same'. Aboriginal people, whilst sharing some aspects of culture with contemporary Australian society, also have unique cultural and historical markers which set them apart.

 

[Kortney]

You only ever hear white people saying this...

I wonder why.

My view of it is, unless you personally were enslaved then you have no right to whine.
My ancestors have been fucked over by the english. You don't see me crying about it.
Why? Because nothing actually happened to me.

Many ethnic minorities still feel the scars of racism and discrimination after the actual crimes took place. The Australian Aboriginals are a fantastic example. Today, in 2011, most young indigenous people in Australia are unable to identify their direct relatives only a few generations above them. Their mothers, aunties, grandmothers, etc were stolen from their families. They still have a lower life expectancy. Why? Hangovers of previous crimes against them.

I also feel the same way even about modern shit. Take 11/9. Unless you lost a friend/family/loved one you really have no right to talk as though it affected you in any way.
Hell, trying to claim it harmed you just basically mocks those who actually were affected by it.

Why do people have to have personally lost a loved one to be upset and harmed by an event? I am emotionally harmed by all mass suffering, because it upsets me that innocent people were killed. I was affected by September 11 by the way. Directly.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I don't think I can properly address the subject without coming off as an insensitive prick, so I'll just say that I managed to grow up poor just fine without the benefit of a crippling racial background. It's not some special thing that you have to be a minority to acquire. If I can get off my lazy ass, join the military, and get a free education as a result, so can anyone else (in America, at least).

See? Now just think how much of a dick I would have sounded like if I'd relayed my true feelings on the matter.

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

My ancestors where succumbed to slavery and guess what I am fine with it. I hold no hate or prejudice, in fact I don't really care I live a good life.

It is sad that it has happened but the past is the past and thus we learn from it and not continue the hate by bringing up bad memories.

 

[Firehound]

Whenever a black person whines about wanting reparations for slavery, I hear "WAH WAH. GIVE ME MONEYS GOVERNMENT! I DON'T WANT TO WORK LIKE EVERYONE ELSE."


At least the American ones. Their argument is moot, their is a black president. Yes your ancestors were second class citizens; sorry, I can't rate you over the Jewish guy who's grandparents were slaughtered horribly by a police-state government for no good reason.

Furthermore, who are you going to collect these reperations FROM? Obviously if you collect them from the government, they'll just tax you for your new wealth and you'll end up winning dollars from yourself. For same effect, hand yourself a dollar bill, repeat.

If you try and sue the family that owned your ancestor, you run into the fact that most of them became very poor when the Union general in charge of things burned down their house and burned the crops. And none of them became rich from their farms after they were burned.

 

[Rocking Thunder]

It does get quite annoying at times, I mean race is starting to come to the advantage of the "colored" man, although I still have the advantage, for the most part, of a better socio-economic background. Do what I do, dont take things so seriously, whenever something racist is said by another race around me, I just say my catchphrase "white boy... Say What?"