Are the descendents of cultures who have been treated poorly playing victim?

[Still Life]

You only ever hear white people saying this...

I wonder why.

My view of it is, unless you personally were enslaved then you have no right to whine.
My ancestors have been fucked over by the english. You don't see me crying about it.
Why? Because nothing actually happened to me.

Many ethnic minorities still feel the scars of racism and discrimination after the actual crimes took place. The Australian Aboriginals are a fantastic example. Today, in 2011, most young indigenous people in Australia are unable to identify their direct relatives only a few generations above them. Their mothers, aunties, grandmothers, etc were stolen from their families. They still have a lower life expectancy. Why? Hangovers of previous crimes against them.

You hit the nail right on the head and outlined an issue I've been struggling with personally.

If I ever see you, I'll shout you cookie and soda.

 

[MyFooThurTS]

yet the blame Aboriginals continue to rest on the Whites is endlessly increasing the divide between our cultures, creating a clearer distinction between what is an Aboriginal Australian and what is a White Australian.

We are all people just the same, the nepotistic aggravation ethnic groups hold against each other regarding whose ancestors did what is only making this fact less obvious.

Australia is multicultural, is it not?

I'm not sure what you're saying by this but if you're referring to the fact that most of my discussion was in reference only to White and Aboriginal Australians then I'll explain that this is because, as far as my understanding goes, Aboriginal Australians bear a far greater level of resentment for Caucasians than any other ethnic or cultural group in Australia.

Let me re-frame:

We are not all the 'same'. Aboriginal people, whilst sharing some aspects of culture with contemporary Australian society, also have unique cultural and historical markers which set them apart.

Maybe I'm not alike all people in this regard but I prefer to think of things in terms of the history of humanity rather than the history of individual groups. It's like the rebuttal that was given to the proposal in America to have a Black History Month and that was; Black History is American History, not something separate from other American History. Morgan Freeman was asked how to stop racism in America and his answer was spot-on; we stop talking about it. You might choose to bear the individual prides, shames, agonies and joys of your individual ethnicity's history but I do not because with self-celebration comes exclusion. Biologically we are all human and productivity and social progress relies on us acknowledging the fact that that truth renders our cultural divisions illogical. Just as I have the right to mourn for what is occurring in Japan so do I have the right as a non-Aboriginal Australian to mourn for what happened to Aboriginals in the past. But were I to desire participation in Aboriginal culture the response would be 'no, this our culture' and that is a form of discrimination, even racism, and, while I have no interest in participating in Aboriginal culture, I am certainly denied access to it - I feel that movement towards a cultural singularity is the key to social progression.

 

[Kortney]

You only ever hear white people saying this...

I wonder why.

I can tell you why I feel a little resentful about it personally. I don't know how much you know about Scottish history but my family was grindingly poor until my parent's generation. A lot of Scottish people were displaced during the Victorian era and lost a lot of traditional clan holdings, basically my family were real bottom-of-the-pile for generations. I say 'family' rather than 'clan' because of an idiosyncrasy of Scottish clan inheritance but we've done a fair amount of research on my mother's family history, and I don't consider my father to be worthy of research.

Long story short my family's been treated like shit.

But I'm white, so therefore I'm part of the oppressing class.

I've ranted before about how angry I get when people don't realise that quite a few people in Britain took a lot of crap during the previous centuries and I especially don't like people inferring that I am in some way responsible for slavery and colonialism when my family were horrendously poor. My family's history of shittiness perpetrated against them rivals, if not exceeds, that of most ethnic minority families and I resent being lumped in with some dead slavers and racists because of the colour of my skin, especially when that period of history hit my ancestors too.

I mean I'm not mad about it, I have no grudge against the descendants of the dead, but I do mildly resent the Prime Minister apologising for slavery on my behalf when the highland clearances haven't even really been recognised.

Oh I completely agree. I realise many white people have suffered, however they have seldom suffered because they were white. Your ancestors were discriminated against, no doubt, but it wasn't a race issue. They weren't displaced because they were white. They were displaced because they were Scottish.

You have a very valid point, but I think racial sensitivity is a different kettle of fish to the type of stuff your family has gone through!

You only ever hear white people saying this...

I wonder why.

Because white people are the ones being scapegoated and forced to be apologetic for things that most of them had no hand in?

Just a thought.

Spoiler: Here's another...

I think it is more to do with the fact that most white people have no concept of things like a collective cultural sensitivity. Most white people don't see their race to be a culture.
It all comes down to that sensitivity. Few white people really have it - because they have no reason to. Race is kind of meaningless to white people on an individual level if you really think about it. However for black people, in my experience, the opposite is true.

So yeah, I'm a believer of "white people don't get it" and that isn't meant in a derogatory way at all. It's probably a good thing.

 

[Gigano]

You only ever hear white people saying this...

I wonder why.

...

A smart woman I see around here from time to time got pretty close as to why [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.274744-Poll-Can-Women-be-Sexist#10637169] in another relation.

They're the one's "called out" on it. Though I suppose a fair few have by now gone onto "calling out" other groups on the sins of their ancestors and general group relations as well in retaliation.

 

[SkellgrimOrDave]

History is a sticky situation, and people who have been personally affected by issues have every right to take it up with someone, but those who just use an issue to get PCs on their side deserve a kerb stomping, it's downright shameful, i'm a quater scottish, I identify with that side of me very strongly, and Scotland has had more than its fair share of abuse, murder, and borderline genocide over the years, just as much if not more than some colonies, but for some reason we don't take it up to the English, which is something i'm comfortable with.

As the anthem says

Those days are past now.
And in the past they must remain.
But we can still rise now.
And be a nation again.
That stood against him.
Proud Edwards army.
And sent him homeward
Tae think again.

Take your history with you, but don't try to guilt trip people now who have as much to do with it as a piece of cheese in the gutter, it just makes you look a tosser.

 

[Spygon]

I feel i do understand why people get upset with how there ancestors were treated but i think unless the slavery or destruction of they society happened in the last 100 years is not much that can be done. Due to my English/Irish nationality i have seen both sides of the argument.

But i have had this discussion with a number of people but i kept coming back to the same thing yes some of my ancestors were bad people. But it was a different time yes i will not deny that there has been some really bad stuff done my English ancestors but that is not my fault. If someones father/mother murdered someone should the son/daughter be arrested if they can not find the parent.

No of course not as we are all individuals so all i can say is you have my sympathies you really do but there nothing i can really do but learn from my ancestors mistakes and learn to appreciate and help defend other cultures societies

 

[Terminal Blue]

The fact that their whiteness is, as you said unacknowledged (bolded in quote for you) is actually a good thing. It shows that they are being considered on their merits as men, not as whites. When you press policies like affirmative action, or otherwise focus on the differences between us, you only further alienate people and force them to distinguish themselves based on race.

It would be a good thing if it happened to everyone, but it kind of doesn't. That's the problem.

Do you know who Muḥammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi was? What's the first thing that leaps out when I say that name, because I'm willing to bet it isn't 'brilliant mathematician' or 'father of modern algebra' or even 'man' (way to be androcentric, by the way).

The fact is that whites are the only people who get to pretend they don't have a specific race or culture because their race or culture is the yardstick by which everyone else is judged.

Noone even mentioned affirmative action, I don't know what you're talking about or what form such action would take. I'm asking you to acknowledge that you already treat people differently based on race and/or culture. Hiding the fact that you do that by claiming its a 'good thing' that you don't see it is not helpful. It would be a good thing if you didn't do it. The fact that you don't see it is actually not that great..

 

[Comrade_Beric]

Palestinians were kicked off their land by people they consider, to this day, to be foreign invaders. They're forced to live in camps on the most inhospitable land still left to them. This is happening right now.

However, almost every human being who was actually thrown off their land in the late 40s/early 50s is dead and buried now. Most of the people who made the decision to take the land in the first place are dead and buried. Most of the people in Europe who murdered millions of the people who would eventually take the land are dead and buried. Do the Palestinians deserve to reclaim what was stolen from them? Do Jewish people deserve to have their own country because of the genocide committed against them immediately before that? More tricky: Should the Palestinians, who never participated in any genocide against Jewish people, be forced to leave their land so that Jewish people should have what is theoretically owed to them?

Saying that you only deserve compensation for what has directly happens to you sounds good, but like it or not, what happens to your people as a group has a huge effect on your prospects in later generations. Try being a Palestinian today and claim that what happened to your grandfather in 1949 has no effect on you and that you deserve nothing for what happened.

 

[Kortney]

I would say lack of cultural sensitivity amongst whites would be due to whites being stripped of any kind of culture of their own and being expected to supplicate to other cultures by the PC totalitarianist set.

Political correctness came into play in around the 1970s. White people had no racial culture before this. Once again, this is not a bad thing. It can be a very good thing as it allows rationality to be spread instead of emotion and bitterness. Look at young Palestinians and Israelis. There is an example of having a racial identity biting you on the backside.

And as an aside, political correctness has done far more good than bad.

The thing we "don't get", is why we're getting shat on for crimes that occurred hundreds or thousands of years prior and were never exactly exclusively caucasian behavior.

Hundreds and thousands of years?

Try a few decades.

And how exactly are you being "shat" on? I'm curious.

edit: I'll reply to your reply tomorrow. I have to go now!

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Australia is multicultural, is it not?

It was even before any whitefellas showed up and said they owned the place.

 

[Griffolion]

Anyone watched Kingdom of Heaven when Bailian makes that speech about how they're bearing the brunt of a crime they didn't commit by people too young to be offended by it? That's pretty much my thoughts on it. Also, look at Israel, one of the most jerked around people in the world, now they have one of the most powerful militaries in the east.

Also, this: http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/6657979/TIME-TO-MAN-THE-FUCK-UP.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Spongebob

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

snip of Nationalism vs. Individualism

I'm NOT a nationalist. I don't much care for my country. I don't care much for our superbly antiquated social rules that I unintentionally piss on all the time. As we speak I'm working my ass off trying to get into a foreign college because I don't want to chain my self to this place forever.

If my previous comment seemed to imply that I will pounce on any Pakistani individual I meet, and try to rip his/her heart out purely by my instinct, then I apologize for being misleading. I have met Pakistani people who I liked and got along with pretty well.

What I said was that I am all too Familiar with what it feels like to be trained from Day one to hate something, for reasons that may not even be clear to you on Day one. Not a lot of people ARE familiar with that feeling, as far as I know, so they may not necessarily understand that this is not something you can rationalize. I get what you're saying, but it doesn't work like that.

snip

Both of you imply that it is a choice. That Bengalis CHOOSE to hate Pakis becuase of some emotional and irrational reason. And while I can see why you may think that; I Assure You

It is NOT a choice

It's hard to explain. The best way I can say it is: umm...okay...look at how awkward a conversation gets when you talk about Sexual intercourse with total strangers. Why is that? Sex is a part of life after all, right? But it is ingrained in our psyche that Sex is an awkward thing to talk about. This is like that. Many Bengalis hate Pakistanis because we were made to do so. We didn't make that choice. It was made for us.

If that doesn't make sense, you are welcome to not believe a word I just said.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Both of you imply that it is a choice. That Bengalis CHOOSE to hate Pakis becuase of some emotional and irrational reason. And while I can see why you may think that; I Assure You

It is NOT a choice

It's hard to explain. The best way I can say it is: umm...okay...look at how awkward a conversation gets when you talk about Sexual intercourse with total strangers. Why is that? Sex is a part of life after all, right? But it is ingrained in our psyche that Sex is an awkward thing to talk about. This is like that. Many Bengalis hate Pakistanis because we were made to do so. We didn't make that choice. It was made for us.

If that doesn't make sense, you are welcome to not believe a word I just said.

I think that's whats known as "agency"[footnote]feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a sociologist[/footnote]. Yes, we are all precious snowflakes, and can be whatever we choose to be and all, but on the other hand the vast majority of us will find ourselves choosing to be what society encourages us to choose to be. We are all products of our culture, however much we all like to echo the chant of individuality.