Are The Old Republic's Sith In the Right?

[kahlzun]

90% of people are going to be Sith. Seriously, think of all your previous Star Wars saves.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

The Sith and the Jedi are merely two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other. What can order be described as if Chaos is destroyed? Jedi and Sith are the same, and its the way most of the galaxy sees things.

I really wish that Bioware would collaborate with Obsidian on this. Chris Avellone was the guy who wrote KOTOR 2, and he is a fucking genius.

Why? Because he dared to question the very foundation of Star Wars, and RPG's, and deconstruct it to a molecular level, where you have to consider the consequences of every action you take.

Listen to everything Kreia tells you in KOTOR 2, and it can be applied to something in the very nature of Star Wars. She's like a movie critic in the movie she is critiquing. Greatest character ever written. Strongest female protagonist ever written, and she's an old witch!

 

[xDHxD148L0]

Do you know where that'd be so much more interesting?

In a KotOR 3.

And nope, I'm not going to shut up about it - ever.

True,and I kinda though that way at first but the sheer potential this game has is way bigger than just another KotOR sequel.

Yes, potential for an MMO.

The sheer potential a singleplayer sequel could have is just as astounding - and more appealing.

To me KotOR 3 would be 30-50hrs(maybe more, depending on how many times you replay it, if I can get the same experience from ToR, but have it be hundreds of hours long, its worth it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Someone else get's a "The Horde" vibe from this?

Very much so.

If the Jedi are morally grey or black, that betrays their whole code...which makes the Sith less powerful...

Which gives all the reason for Jedi/Sith players to dominate with force lightning/choke holds.

If they've learnt one thing from SWG, they should learn that given the choice almost everyone will go Sith/Jedi, only based on which nifty Force powers they can use.

I foresee a very broken game from start if this happens. Space Opera is MEANT to be black/white, fiddling about with that particular trope is gonna end in a bloodbath.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

There is never a clear Good vs Evil in any conflict. Nobody is "right". Take the current war in the Middle East. The western soldiers and peacekeepers are there to establish order and "stop the terrorists". The militants there are trying to repel a foreign invasion force. Both side's causes could be considered "right" in the right light.

 

[xDHxD148L0]

Hmmm, well truthfully I've feared something like this was coming. Largely because of "Sith Mania" in the forums and such and the fact that they seemed to be setting out to make the bad guys much cooler than the good guys.

That said, the Sith are supposed to be bad because they turn sociopathic behavior into a philosophy. Oh surely, no bad guy wakes up in the morning deciding "gee, I want to be really, really evil" except maybe certain maniacs. A lot do however wake up in the morning totally concerned only with themselves.

The idea of the Sith is supposed to be one of almost complete self interest in promoting what you want such as power, prestige, wealth, love, etc... as the most important thing. It's perfectly okay to take what you want from those weaker than yourself. They remain organized by and large by the logic that they are stronger as a group and every individual benefits, however there is constant infighting, paranoia, and other issues within their ranks as everyone is basically involved only in so far as they gain from it as part of the collective. Apprentices and trainees being nessicary to perpetuate the philsophy, as well as to be weapons for their teachers, as well as of course a sign of power that someone can train an apprentice well and still be strong enough not to fall to them. I've read a bit on the subject.

What this turns into is empires of depravity where the strong (and those with the force are strongest) prey on the weak, nobody is safe, and the whims of the moment by the very powerful could lead to the horrible screaming death of entire planets and civilizations.

It's been discussed in books, and Keira touched on this a bit in Knights Of the Old Republic II (which was allegedly written in part by George Lucas). Really the only arguement someone can make for the Sith *NOT* being evil is some of George Lucas' bad writing when he decided that love was prohibited by the Jedi code (to give make the Amidala/Anakin thing inherantly illegal and justify some of what had to happen). Whether this is part of the way the Jedi code was taught at that time period, or inherant to the light side is unknown. Arguements have been made (some coming from Lucas) that they were supposed to have been wrong about that because it was Love for his son that also redeemed Darth Vader in the end. It could be said that both sides can probably be allowed to love in an absolute sense.

As far as the Jedi not getting involved in the Mandalorian Wars, well we do not have ALL of the backround on that occurance still. It can however be argued that any philsophy taken to it's extreme is incapable of doing anything. It's possible to become so good that any action of note is too ambigious to take, or so evil and self interested that one can't be roused from their own pursuits and interested in doing anything that isn't specifically for their own benefit.

When it comes to things like slavery and "genocide" neither is specifically wrong or evil despite what some people will say, though various factors can easily make them so. Look at it this way:

#1: Slavery: Let's say you fight a war, and wind up controlling land where a lot of people hate your guts. If you just let them go on with their lives, they are going to continue hating you and eventually make your life difficult and probably even engage in war with you again when they feel strong enough. Not to mention being able to make it nearly impossible for your to control that land. As the conquerer (motives go beyond this basic point) your basically faced with the reality that you can't make them all prisoners and hold them indefinatly. Putting all these people to the sword is also distasteful, and wrong. Slavery represents a middle ground allowing you to maintain control of large groups of people without killing them. Viewed in the long term if you dispese the people through a massive empire over a period of generations you can also probably adapt them out of the philsophy and turn them into "your" people so when their descendants are freed they become just like you.

Of course this *IS* a slippery slope, after all how do you guarantee when the people will be freed? Especially generations down the road. There are all kinds of things that can go wrong here.

Likewise when dealing with prisoners and such one issue we deal with today is forced labour. The basic idea that you can't FORCE prisoners to work, making them a total drain on society. It's a complicated issue that also involves things like contractors not wanting to see prison labour on roads and such anymore because if the state uses them there is no need to pay the contractors/unions, but morality and the idea that forcing prisoners to work is slavery is also an issue and why we don't do it more often. In general prisoners are required to make a tiny bit of money for their effort, and it's voluntary. Still as a modern counterpoint to the above "war logic" (generally talking about the Romans and such) it's a situation where you'll find a LOT of people who support the idea of forced prison labour.


#2: When it comes to Genocide, there are questions when you extend it to an idea or way of life as to whether it's wrong. When dealing with a culture that defines itself by wanting you (or anyone but them) dead, conquered, or absorbed as a defining trait, by what sane logic do you argue for preserving something like this? Going beyond humanity look also at some hypothetical alien species and such like races of alien killbots, or even the "Aliens" of movie fame. Why by any sane standards would you keep something like that around? "Oh sure, we can't destroy the genocidal machine race that wants to exterminate all organics because Genocide is wrong". I think the "Aliens" movies have done a good job of more or less explaining why killing them all permanantly would be a really good idea, and why anyone who thinks otherwise (and there is always someone in those movies who thinks otherwise...) is a complete moron (and usually an EVIL moron to boot).


To put things into perspective I get the impression that the "Republic" has always been intended to be sort of like Rome in it's logic. This applies to it's general practice of slavery, the bondage of sentinent machines (Droids), and of course it's war policies where it totally destroys, conquers, and/or absorbs what enemies it fights even when not bring run by evil imperialists. It also however can be argued that it does not go to war easily, and tends to see violence as a last recourse, as shown by the usage of Jedi as "Troubleshooters" and the lack of willingness to make a move on rebel factions like "The Trade Federation" until the last possible second despite all common sense. Even as they were basically conquering Naboo the Senate pretty much sat down twiddling it's thumbs and sent two Jedi as diplomats in a situation that was clearly well beyond a diplomatic resolution (ie they were stupid). By the time they acted it was "oh geez, these guys we should have seen coming for years and attacked have built up this massive army and now we can't solve the problem with what we had anymore.... bring on the clones!".

I think the planets like those run by the Hutts make a certain counterpoint in terms of slavery and servitude between "enlightened" slavery and "barbaric" slavery. The Huttese planets not being part of The Republic, which made currency an issue during the movies.

At any rate, these are my thoughts. I'd imagine The Republic has a lot of laws governing slaves and such, and while it does engagein Genocide it's a last resort. With the Sith genocide is pretty much whenever a group would be slightly inconveinent and of no direct use to them (not even bothering to look for other ways without benefit) and slavery being totally unregulated and up to the masters. For example in The Republic there are probably humane working guidelines, and slave owners can get nailed for breaking them. For the Sith raping slaves with razor blades, or using them for reactor shielding is probably just fine.


Such are my thoughts from what I've picked up here and there over the years. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

The bottom line is that yeah, The Jedi and Republic are not "good guys" to the standards of modern ultra liberal democrats. No more than say the Ancient Romans would be (albiet they don't go that far). I think the Sith could be considered an evil group of sociopaths by anyone's standards.

If Bioware tries to make The Sith less than evil and sociopathic, I think that will be a mistake. Right now I think that is one of the few things holding back the game from becoming totally Sith oriented. If they turn the Sith into anti-heroes to boot that would make them even cooler and really... that's about the last thing this game needs. As it is I'm concerned the good guys are going to become another "Alliance" (WoW) or "Order" (WAR) as it is.

I still look back to the traailers they did with these awesome Sith jumping out and pwning everyone, with these generic looking Jedi (who lose). I think that says a lot about the game, and I think they need to reign it in a bit and focus on balance rather than seeing how awesome they can make the Sith.


I'll be surprised if anyone (never mind anyone who matters) actually read this.

I think more people would read it if you wrote a more concise message that was straight to the point.

 

[loremazd]

I dunno, if Kotor's little sith training facility was any indication of their philosophy, Anyone who is a Sith is a goddamn moron.

Join the Sith! Train an apprentice to kill you! Once we defeat the jedi we'll kill each other! Fun!

 

[Therumancer]

I'll be surprised if anyone (never mind anyone who matters) actually read this.[/quote]

I think more people would read it if you wrote a more concise message that was straight to the point.[/quote]


Wouldn't work. I write so much because I prefer to be thourgh in what I say. Quick and to the point means that it leaves a lot of room for people to say "yeah but" and leads to a lot messages and back and forth that could otherwise have been avoided. It's better I think to express everything right from the outset.

The problem is that people tend to have limited attention spans, and tend to miss the entire point of message boards for the most part. There are some things you can't just cover well in bite size chunks or "tweets".

 

[Mercurio128]

I have to say that what I would love from this game is the option to officially say 'Screw the Jedi code!' at some pivotal point in the game. Say during a mid-game mission you can choose to 'Fall' (or be redeemed if you play Sith). It strikes me that one of the central concepts in star wars is the fall/redemption dynamic. If this could be integrated with serious consequences for the player it would really rock!

or I suppose they could just implement it as a way to balance out player levels on one sided servers ( this week only! murder your allies! punch a kitten! join the dark side for free!)

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

Snip

That was a lot, although I did read the whole thing. On genocide: Yes it is sometimes nessecary, but it should be a last resort. You cited Alien (from Alien) as an example. Seeing as how there is absolutely nothing useful about this species(except bait for Predators it seems) then it would be acceptable to destroy them. But this descision could only be made after years or painstaking reaserch to make sure there is absolutely nothing that could be done with them. And even then a couple hundred should be kept in cryo incase the need ever arises.

 

[Therumancer]

I dunno, if Kotor's little sith training facility was any indication of their philosophy, Anyone who is a Sith is a goddamn moron.

Join the Sith! Train an apprentice to kill you! Once we defeat the jedi we'll kill each other! Fun!

Not quite. If you bothered to read my mega post I mentioned this.

The Sith have basically turned sociopathic behavior into a philsophy. A sort of bioshock-esque "cult of the self". The entire philsophy is for them to do whatever they feel benefits them, their only limits being capability. They work together because together they realize they can acheive more than alone, and thus everyone benefits. They however are always trying to one-up each other for more power, destroy rivals, and basically grab the biggest piece of the pie for themselves whenever possible.

They realize they need to bring in more force users to keep their philsophy alive, as well as the fact that being able to train and control an apprentice both provides them with a powerful minion, and also an indirect display of their own power. The stronger the apprentice they can keep subservient, the more powerful that makes them seem/feel.

Defeating The Jedi and Republic being only the first step, I believe the entire attitude of the "Sith Empire" is to conquer everything, so while they continue to fight/one up each other they also remain united in a desire for conquest. Once the Jedi were gone rather than turning on each other all at once, business would go on as usual, they would cement their conquest, each individual would grab as much as they could, and then they would move on to their next victims (some of the independant factions, like say invading and conquering all the worlds controlled by various Hutts or whatever).

 

[Archon]

The Jedi as presented in Episode IV are clearly good guys. Kenobi goes out of his way to avoid killing - he uses illusion, trickery, and diplomacy wherever possible. Vader "betrayed and murdered the Jedi", thinks nothing of destroying a planet and lives for revenge against his former master. Episode V and VI paint the Light Side as a belief system where the love of a father for his child can be redemptive, but they also paint Obi-Wan as a bit of a deceitful jerk - after all, he convinced Luke to help him by playing off his crush on the Princess (his sister!) and without telling him that Darth was his father.

And then it all goes to hell in Episode I-III. There, the Jedi come off terribly. Children are taken from their parents and raised in monasteries. Anakin's mother is left in slavery, when for a few coin she could have been saved. Qui-Gon uses his force powers to obliterate a drug-using clubowner's free will. Anakin is put in terrible situations - bodyguarding the woman he loves, but disallowed to consummate his love. The Jedi Council appears petty and jealous of its power. The Jedi are transformed from knights of valor to Buddhistic hypocrites.

Meanwhile, the Sith emerge as Nietzschean "master moralists" who clearly see world in a contrast of good (strong) and bad (weak).

At least the Sith are morally consistent!

 

[Megawizard]

I think Jolee Bindo had it the closest "right-way" out of both sides.

In regards to decisions like that in games, I have no problem helping people out with whatever issues they may have; but attack/bully me and I'll rip your spine out through your ear if you weren't forced into it.

 

[Cryo84R]

I'll probably not have the computing power to play this by the time it comes out, but if I can I intend to. That being said, thats why I prefer the movies to the EU. George Lucas said that in his story, the Sith are Bad, and the Jedi are Good. It was never really a "point of view" thing in that regard in the movies. But the EU always try to make good sith and bad jedi, or just generally make up whatever they want in terms of the world of Star Wars. I still can't wait for this game to come out, but I've never been much of a fan of the EU.

Lucas is a tosser whose creation outgrew him long ago.

That being said, I always thought the jedi were a bunch of pussies and always threw my lot in with the sith when given the choice.

 

[silver wolf009]

Not all of the foes we fight are evil. The sith are to some extent noble, keeping the culture of a long lost and forgotten race alive, BUT, they are also a hive of backstabbers and hate-filled maniacs. Not all enemies are evil, however these guys are.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

And then it all goes to hell in Episode I-III.

We've said that all along.


gen·o·cide
   /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Spelled[jen-uh-sahyd]
?noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.


Ask the people of Alderaan which side is genocidal. Oh wait, you can't...

 

[matrix3509]

*sigh* No. No,no,no,no,no,no,no.

The Sith fight for no one other than themselves. They are not evil because they use their emotions, they are evil because out of the emotions they utilize. Hate, and anger are their chief emotions. The Jedi do not hunt them to near extinction. The Jedi turn them back to the light side, and the Sith, if they do not willingly turn, rush headlong into their own deaths, as is their nature.

You can argue that during the era of the Empire that the galaxy saw an unprecedented age order, but that argument hold zero water for the fact that everyone (that is, except for the Moffs, and the Emperor himself) was miserable. It was the exact definition of a fascist state. I could go on about this all day, and I'm reasonably sure I've thought more about the philosophy of the Sith and Jedi than perhaps anyone on earth, with the exception of Lucas of course.

 

[Jedoro]

This is why I never wanted to be part of either faction, because there is no black and white and I don't agree with all of what either side believes. But I'm definitely considering being a Sith in TOR.

 

[Paulie92]

well i've only seen the movies and read books set in the new republic and honestly the sith are just evil, awesome but evil. The whole debate about using emotion vs. complete purity is valid but irrelevant. All I see is that the sith want to control the galaxy and are willing to lie, kill and betray to do it. Awesome but evil

 

[Ridonculous_Ninja]

As much as they bring good into the Sith, I shall always play them like this;

This power is my birthright and is mine to use as I deem fit. Let the lesser tremble at my coming.

Cool ideas though.