Are The Old Republic's Sith In the Right?

[PrimoThePro]

I noticed that very few Sith do things the right way. Always power hungry and stupid. There have been a few exceptions, such as Darth Krayt, and Exar Kun. What I hope for in a Sith (My role as a Sith when SW: ToR comes out) is that he is smart, has patience, and ultimately knows that what he/she is doing for himself, and the Sith is better then what the Jedi do. And he/she doesn't fear his emotions.
I know, it is a lot to hope for, but I think I can pull it off.

 

[GloatingSwine]

All this pussyfooting around the subject and "oh well they're not really evil, if you look at it from a certain point of view" is why we need a Warhammer 40K mmo. Less of this emo "we're just misunderstood really" shit, more BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

But then I think the Old Republic MMO is doomed to start with. Galaxies showed that you couldn't even get a successful MMO out of the bit of the Star Wars timeline that people do care about, the only people that will give two shits about the old republic period are people who were fans of the computer games, and a good many of them won't want an MMO.

 

[qbanknight]

thank God for Bioware. It would always be interesting to have a story where there's no GOOD or BAD. War is war, it is by nature evil, claiming to be on the side of GOOD does not lessen the impact you make when you take a life. I'm happy to see the Sith aren't just puppy-killing psychotics, but have a reason to be doing what they are up to. This is so rare, and I am so happy to see an engaging story to be told where you will most likely question if you are really a savior.

 

[Lord_Ascendant]

So I could, say, create my own little Star Wars universe Oscar Wilde? Darth Wilde? Hmmmmm....

 

[RelexCryo]

Are The Old Republic's Sith In the Right?

Are the Jedi genocidal? Does "Dark Side" always necessarily mean "evil"? Star Wars: The Old Republic might be trying to shake up the foundations of George Lucas' galaxy far, far away.

We've learned over at Ars Technica [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/conferences/gdc2010/7304-Hands-On-Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic], where the man in charge of fleshing out the Old Republic universe discussed the traditional Lucas dogma of "Sith = bad, Jedi = good."

"The one thing you're never going to hear is 'make the bad guys less interesting,'" says Erickson, who greatly admires Grand Admiral Thrawn - Imperial mastermind and main antagonist of Timothy Zahn's Star Wars Expanded Universe novel trilogy. "Why are these people resisting order, and regulation. The galaxy was at war-it was a horrid place before. Is it really not enough to have order? You need everything? You're acting like children!"

But beyond getting in the mind of the Imperials, Erickson thinks that the Jedi Order had serious problems stemming from an overly repressive nature and was borderline genocidal because of it - and in doing so, used the example of early Sith lord Exar Kun [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Exar_Kun]. "If you give brash young people almost god-like powers and ask them to behave... you're asking for problems. You're dealing with someone in their early twenties, who has never been able to be thwarted by anything, and you tell them not to play with these Sith artifacts-of course they're going to think they can handle it."

"You're training children to deal with this power, and then demanding them to be incorruptible, and holding them to a standard that we don't even ask from any of our own societies. We looked at these issues and said, 'We could come up with an entire thematic run with this.'"

In fact, Erickson thinks the Sith could be morally in the right - from a certain point of view (as Obi-Wan Kenobi might say). "What the Jedi call the Dark Side, and what came to be known as the Dark Side, these people believed that life should be about emotion. They believed you should be unrestrained, that the galaxy wants us to love and lust and kill and make art and cry and dream..." And these more "hedonistic" believers in the Force? Why, they get chased out of the known regions of the galaxy and hunted down by the "noble" Jedi, of course! "In fact, in the lore, chased to the point where the Jedi believe they are dead. This is very close to genocide!"

Naturally, from the Jedi point of view there are some very good reasons to fear those treading the path of the Sith, but Erickson argues that a child who has been raised from birth won't understand that. That child won't see the universe in the terms of Dark Side and Light Side, they'll see it in terms of a very fight for survival. "You know there is an Emperor, and that he saved your people's very existence, and there is a society out there larger than you, who deemed your people and your religion not worthy to exist."

That's a very interesting tack that BioWare seems to be taking, and one that I hope they expand upon in the actual game itself. Good-guy Sith? It might not be so far from the truth after all.

Permalink

Meh. I would love this angle except for one thing...they made all bounty hunters into Boba Fett clones. mandalorian battle armor is no longer mandalorian...now it's just "Bounty Hunter." Goodbye self expression and diversity. I refuse to play this game and automatically hate them just for that. Mandalorian armor is supposed to be rare and only worn by mandalorians, not every bounty hunter in the galaxy.

I want to dress up like a cowboy damn it.

 

[JaredXE]

Obi-Wan - "Only Sith deal in absolutes."

Gasp!

Obi-Wan was a Sith!

pfft, yeah I have always viewed Sith in that whole, "They actually FEEL whereas the Jedi CONTEMPLATE." kinda way, where the Jedi repress their feelings and shackle themselves and the Sith simply don't.

I just don't see how using your emotions both A) Dominates your destiny, and B) Leads to Galactic conquest and genocide.

The Force is a tool, it's only the actions and intent of those who use it that make it good or bad, nothing more.

 

[Bat Vader]

The Jedi and Sith are both morally right on some things and are both morally wrong on some things as well.

I really like the way Luke re-made the Jedi Order with Jedi being able to actually to get into relationships without having to keep them secret.

I can't wait for Star Wars: The Old Republic to come out.

 

[jad4400]

Meh, I've learned to try distance myself for Force related philosophical debates. I mean true, in the original three Star Wars films it was an easy black and white, Jedi=good, Sith=evil. While it may have included some more grey areas (Obi-wan lying and Vader's redemption) it was still very clear cut. The newer films display of the Jedi being more terrible then in the originals gave me mixed emotions. Sure the original imaginings of what the Jedi were was changed around a lot, but at the same time it served as a story about how any institution over time can become corrupted from its original form.

The fall of the Jedi in the newer three Star Wars movies gave me the impression that it was an allegory for large religious institutions and their history on Earth (not trying to start a flame war here). The Jedi start out being considered ultimate paragons of justice and morality. This small group wields so much power and influence that their very presence and input in a conflict or diplomatic situation could tip the balance in favor of the side they were for. However over time they became more sedentary wouldn?t bother to get involved unless either THEY themselves thought they should get involved or the situation was so extreme that to not get involved would mean either their destruction as an institution or they would lose some of their clout. They also continue to follow traditions that may not actually be of any benefit to their order or society, and they also continue to meddle in politics if they feel a situation is immoral or unjust in their eyes.

This ultimately culminated in the Jedi's fall, they tried to interfere in politics in their modern society by forcibly removing the head of state from power based on accusations he MIGHT be a Sith. While yes Palpatine was a Sith lord and caused the whole conflict, what gave the Jedi the authority to forcefully remove the leader of the galaxies largest government based on a hunch he was a Sith lord and might be responsible for everything? Bear in mind the Jedi were put in charge of the military of this government, so in essence these warrior monks were initiating a coup d'etat against the galaxies largest stablilizing forces. If they were succesful, how would they explain their actions? " Yeah, we just killed the Supreme Chancoller because we now know that he was an evil Sith who caused this horriable war. You can trust us because were secretly investigating himand his bodygaurd denounced him as a whitch-err I mean Sith"

I'm not ranting against Jedi (although it may seem like I am), I do belive that most Jedi were good invidiuals who tried to make good moral decisions to help people. I just think that it is the leadership of the Jedi that was bad.

With the Sith, they've stayed reasonably consistnt. They are made up of individuals who follow a path of indulging one self and disconcering themselves with the trobles of others. They follow a mostly self-indulgent path of gathering as much strength as they can amass for themselves and killing anyone that gets in their way or can threaten their power. I've never really been a fan trying to make the Sith into more of an anti-hero archtype, because frankly their philosophy pretty much says that they have to be bad guys. The only time I may be inclinded to belive that Sith aren't all bad is when they are trying to enfore order with questionable methods (See:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil)

So...Looks like I did join the debate after all............Crap.

So overall I'll just say this, Sith are always bad, but they may occasionally do bad for good reasons. Jedi try to be good, but they have bad leaders and an adherence to a draconian code and deserve to knocked off their high horse once in a while.

And when it comes to The Old Republic game, I'll happily be zooming around as a bounty hunter while the Jedi and Sith have a philosophy discussion with lightsabers.

 

[wolf92]

If anyone could pull of an idea like this, it's bioware. And this is an interesting idea. In the expanded universe there are mentions of a sith who wasn't "evil" as defined by the jedi. And one could even argue that Darth Cadeus wasn't evil until last few months of his life.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Lok'tar?

EDIT: Sorry, all of this just reminds me of the talk that surrounded the moves the WoW horde took into more 'Ragtag Survivor' territory. This isn't saying SweaTor is ripping from WoW, more that as a WoW fan I am very happy to see this kind of moral equality in the game. It does wonders for a community, good job BioWare!

 

[crimsonshrouds]

Sith can be evil and good but the real difference is sith usually do things for themselves while jedi are more prone to do things for the greater good to keep the peace though jedi can be corrupted and evil.

If im not mistaken the jedi were called peace keeper or something to that effect. but their are always shades of grey. In episode one and two you can kinda tell that the jedi had fallen into corruption like as much of the galaxy had. the fall of the jedi coincided with the fall of democracy.

Interesting how the jedi keep control of their emotions but support democracy and the sith use their emotions freely while seeking control of the galaxy.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

I always toyed with that idea. I mean just because he rely on emotions for power and drive, does it make him such a bad guy?

Batman became a hero because a man murdered his parents, Spider-man finally became a hero when his uncle was shot by someone he could have stopped, and the Punisher's entire family was killed by crime lords.

Not saying all those things apply directly to this (I guess I bended it alittle), but all those hero had a emotional attachment that made them into the heroes they are.

 

[Flying Dagger]

The Sith and the Jedi are merely two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other. What can order be described as if Chaos is destroyed? Jedi and Sith are the same, and its the way most of the galaxy sees things.

I really wish that Bioware would collaborate with Obsidian on this. Chris Avellone was the guy who wrote KOTOR 2, and he is a fucking genius.

Why? Because he dared to question the very foundation of Star Wars, and RPG's, and deconstruct it to a molecular level, where you have to consider the consequences of every action you take.

Listen to everything Kreia tells you in KOTOR 2, and it can be applied to something in the very nature of Star Wars. She's like a movie critic in the movie she is critiquing. Greatest character ever written. Strongest female protagonist ever written, and she's an old witch!

I found her infuriating... Mostly because to get most of her dialog you have to act in an inconsistant manner... Who wants to roll-play a pragmatist? It also ceases to make sense when she informs you that by taking on the problems of others you strengthen yourself, then a minute later she'll nag you for helping someone. Though she was well written, and had a tremendous voice actor, she was too contrary for my liking.

 

[WorldCritic]

It actually should make things interesting in discussions when the game comes out.

 

[Flying Dagger]

snip

I always thought that in the very beginnings of the Jedi council, they noticed the correlation between emotion and falling to the dark side.
But as any debater knows, the argument against taking an action because it may lead to another action is a logical fallacy known as "the slippery slope."
But far back in the history of jedi, they adhered to this error in logic, and that created the sith. They continued to teach this mis-logic to generations of new comers and in turn they adopted it more fully. In the end they were more worried about people following the rules that they laid down, and made outcast those who felt the slightest emotion, in the fear that they would corrupt the others. It was the act of turning against those who needed the most help that caused the dissenters to feel bitterness and thus created the very dark path that the initial Jedi Masters warned against.
The sith by nature, when recruiting their own, attracted those who most wanted power. And as a famous man once said, those who desire power, are the least equipped to wield it. If you add in that the sith colonies are being constantly raided by Jedi Knights in order to "sanctify" the sith, and you have people who have no experience teaching or even establishing the Beliefs of the sith, up against an establishment that has untold experience of training Jedi.
So the small facilities start up, the original people may have had big, well thought plans, that could succeed, but they take in those who will betray them. They justify the betrayal by saying that it is the sith way, and so it becomes. With the history of the righteous sith destroyed, no one can argue the contrary, and the bad practice continues.

(Anyone reading this and thinking of the fantastic "Darkweaver Legacy" by Mark Robson, Yeah my idea of the jedi council have a lot in common with the masters of the magicians academy.)

snip

I think in KOTOR2 (however canon you consider it) It is stated that the republic was never important, only that it procured the Jedi Order.

 

[Terry576]

I remember some crossover fanfiction between Hellsing and Star Wars that had the same idea.

Quote:

"These new Sith are nothing like those of the old. The old Sith believed in freedom to make their own decisions, and choose their own paths."

 

[core_luros]

I always thought it was a good example of there was no real good side and no real bad side because both had their own faults. The Jedi suppressed emotion until it burst out in the Sith. The Sith let power run rampant until it eliminated them. There is supposed to be a balance of power on both sides. If you are wielding the power of the universe itself, there should be a little bit of control. Lack of control even made their own bodies decay. That should have been a hint. The Jedi were just as bad. They suppressed emotion so badly that they forgot humanity. The council was almost clinical in their behavior. The thing is, both should have realized their faults and with the series still going, well maybe they will.

 

[ma55ter_fett]

I was planning on being a sith from the begining, now this has me even more intrested to play the game.

 

[wtrmute]

I've always equated Star Wars's force-feud to Christianity vs Paganism. If you aren't one of them, you are a heretic and must be killed. Order must be preserved, and one must not question those in charge. The Sith do some bad-awful stuff, true, but so do the Jedi. Fear may lead to anger, and anger may lead to hate, but they don't always do such.

Which is odd, because the Jedi have always been a very thinly-veiled allegory for Zen Buddhism (as seen from the perspective of a Californian film student in the 70s).

However, watching the movies, playing the games, and reading the novels, I have always been struck by the wisdom of the old Jedi masters. They were able to protect the galaxy for twenty-five millennia, Sith coming, Sith going. Then Anakin comes and makes a mess of everything by being a spoiled brat, so much that later, Luke decides to relax some of the restrictions on young Jedi. The result: the New Order cannot maintain stability for twenty-five years...

Also: sorry, John, that talk about how the Sith are all misunderstood anti-heroes just trying to express themselves against the castrating freedom-hating Jedi is pure hock. It's the modern man's secret desire of having power without the attending responsibility. What I know is that the little people, the ones who don't have Force powers, weren't crushed under the heel of the Jedi, in contrast to the "self-expressing" Sith. But then again, I'm a moral absolutist, so there...