Are transgenderism and transsexuality mental illnesses?

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Given the above, and only applied to the very last issue, would you say my opinion ignores medical science? Because I feel like that was what I was talking about.

Let's refer to this particular part:

<quote=Corey>
I wouldn't even consider that transgenderism, but some would, in which case it would be a mental illness either way.

I think we should put the full context of that post here:

I'd say that some forms are. Not the form where you feel like a woman or a man inside while you are the opposite of what people think that should be on the outside. I mean the kind who thinks they're missing a piece of their body, or that a piece of their body they have isn't theirs.

I wouldn't even consider that transgenderism, but some would, in which case it would be a mental illness either way.

I really want to point out here, body modification to address gender dysphoria can look like it works that way. But that's not what SRS is for, SRS is really a stop gap procedure, because we can't give a trans person the full biological parts that would relieve their dysphoria. So we do what we can. SRS isn't something you just go have done either, it takes quite a process to qualify for it several years minimum of work, presenting as your identity gender for a minimum of a year, hormone replacement therapy for several years, and optional secondary surgeries to present better are all steps toward SRS.

More to the point: SRS isn't lopping a dick off, it's much more complicated. The reason for it is not because "I wish I didn't have a penis", or such. The point is that for many it's a necessary treatment for someone to at least feel comfortable in their own body. All transition is about getting rid of dysphoria, some need more than others, but the end goal is a happier life. Don't focus so much on the person feeling as if they're "missing pieces" or "have pieces they don't want". That's not how it works, all parts of transition are about diminishing dysphoria, if not eliminating it outright. We literally can't change someone's brain to make them identify with their birth sex, to do so would literally be changing a fundamental part of a person's personality. Which ethically is chemical brainwashing, because it's rewriting a person's personality. Talking about brain damage, this would be a very similar thing, changing a person by rewriting their mind... That's horrifying and it could be applied to anyone for any reason if they figure out how to do it to trans folk. That's not a world I'd want to live in.

By some, I don't mean medical practitioners. They have means to discern between someone who is trans and someone who isn't trans in the aforementioned case. But I don't think everyone is equipped with such discernment. Either way, whether the latter is considered transgender or not, which I don't think it is and neither do you, I'd say that it is mental illness.

Well if we take people who do body modification into account, I wouldn't call it a mental illness. I'd call it autonomy of self. Which while we might both object to someone say cutting off a limb, or receiving desired mutilations... Honestly we can't tell their mental states, there are plenty of sane people who like to be suspended from fish hooks and get horns implanted. That's less "they're mentally ill" and more "whatever floats their boat, so long as they're happy." I mean people get tattoos too, we don't say those people are mentally ill, even if they get a facial tattoo.

To expand furhter; if functional cybernetic limbs, organs, and other body parts become available within my life time... I'll go through hell and high water to get cybernetic organs, limbs, and other part, if not a whole cybernetic prosthetic body. Partly to be rid of my arthritis, partly because it's fucking awesome, especially if I could have fox, or cat ears, and tailor a my body to look just how I want it.

I'd say from personal experience that suicide doesn't really come as a result of happiness, and what follows after suicide isn't happiness either.

Well here's the thing: People who take the steps to get SRS have far lower suicide rates than the rest of the trans community. One of the driving forces of suicide amongst trans people is hopelessness in ability to transition. That's not just limited to SRS either, the ability just to wear the clothes one likes, or get Hormone Replacement Therapy. Trust me when I say that all parts of transition help.

A post transition trans person often doesn't commit suicide because they transitioned either, there are other factors that revolve around being trans that can cause that. Like not being accepted by one's family, being discriminated against in housing and employment, and extenuating circumstances that would cause a cis person to commit suicide too. So lets not throw the baby out with the bath water here, SRS helps the vast majority of people who chose it, but many other factors in life can cause things to fall apart. So let's not blame the transition methods, which are the only treatments that dissipate gender dysphoria.

Edit: You make multi-quoting a real arse.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Wow, that's a hot load of clickbait, devoid of anything like support. You're also not being subtle with your digs here, or what you want out of this. Which is a fight, not an "Off topic discussion".

And people accused me of shitposting in GGG!

What digs? Practically every other sentence is talking about people identifying as transgender not being bullied or treated other than equal

Because the entire OP can be summed up with "I don't mean to be insulting/offensive/demeaning towards trans people, I just want to ask extremely insulting, offensive and demeaning questions about them that have already been fully addressed by the medical community (with the exception of a small handful of agenda-pushing conservative quacks) with a resounding "NO"!"

Which part is insulting or demeaning?

If I was to ask you "Are you are *bat hingbad thing here*?", I'm not insulting or demeaning you, but I am insulting and demeaning you. Especially if it's something used to attack you or your group often in the past.

EDIT: "Bad thing", not "bat hing".

Is it insulting or demeaning to say people with depression or autism have mental health issues?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Wow, that's a hot load of clickbait, devoid of anything like support. You're also not being subtle with your digs here, or what you want out of this. Which is a fight, not an "Off topic discussion".

And people accused me of shitposting in GGG!

What digs? Practically every other sentence is talking about people identifying as transgender not being bullied or treated other than equal

Because the entire OP can be summed up with "I don't mean to be insulting/offensive/demeaning towards trans people, I just want to ask extremely insulting, offensive and demeaning questions about them that have already been fully addressed by the medical community (with the exception of a small handful of agenda-pushing conservative quacks) with a resounding "NO"!"

Which part is insulting or demeaning?

If I was to ask you "Are you are *bat hingbad thing here*?", I'm not insulting or demeaning you, but I am insulting and demeaning you. Especially if it's something used to attack you or your group often in the past.

EDIT: "Bad thing", not "bat hing".

Is it insulting or demeaning to say people with depression or autism have mental health issues?

The first is a mental health issue, so no, the latter, I believe is not so probably.

Of course the idea that having mental health issues is an insult is itself insulting people with mental health issues.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Wow, that's a hot load of clickbait, devoid of anything like support. You're also not being subtle with your digs here, or what you want out of this. Which is a fight, not an "Off topic discussion".

And people accused me of shitposting in GGG!

What digs? Practically every other sentence is talking about people identifying as transgender not being bullied or treated other than equal

Because the entire OP can be summed up with "I don't mean to be insulting/offensive/demeaning towards trans people, I just want to ask extremely insulting, offensive and demeaning questions about them that have already been fully addressed by the medical community (with the exception of a small handful of agenda-pushing conservative quacks) with a resounding "NO"!"

Which part is insulting or demeaning?

If I was to ask you "Are you are *bat hingbad thing here*?", I'm not insulting or demeaning you, but I am insulting and demeaning you. Especially if it's something used to attack you or your group often in the past.

EDIT: "Bad thing", not "bat hing".

Is it insulting or demeaning to say people with depression or autism have mental health issues?

The first is a mental health issue, so no, the latter, I believe is not so probably.

Of course the idea that having mental health issues is an insult is itself insulting people with mental health issues.

So is the OP insulting or not? Because if it is, you have just insulted myself and countless other people the world over by implying that mental health issues are insulting.

 

[pookie101]

frankly no medication, no therapy at all will "cure" someone of gender dysphoria, medical treatment along the lines of hormone treatment and possibly surgery if the person requires it is a proven treatment.

basically its correcting a birth defect nothing more

 

[Wrex Brogan]

No, see, you misunderstand me. By 'keep that shit away from me' I mean 'Don't post your ignorant bullshit on a public forum and then tell trans people to stay away from you' because that's fucking idiotic. I couldn't give a shit about you noticing me, I'm telling you to pack your shit away because it's fucked up. You're waving your cock (cock here is 'ignorant opinion') in public, and that's just a dick move.

Do the polite thing, and educate yourself before you say shit like that. Or keep it to yourself/a private little corner of the internet. Good god.

(and you fucked that up, since 'things' isn't gender neutral and you say 'him' at the end of the paragraph. Appropriate gender-neutral language is 'they/them/their', because then you're not referring to a person as a fucking object!)

Oh sorry, my bad. But that can (and must) be said about you then, no? After all we're on a public forum. And you are not it's owner, as far as I can tell. And I don't see you being very polite either - after all - I didn't lamely try to insult you and used old SJW phrases to somehow invalidate your opinion. Although, if you are an SJW - than I'm sorry for disturbing you. I'll never do that again, promise, oh white american friend

...you literally shit-talked Trans people in a thread that has several trans people in it. How the fuck is that a polite thing to do? C'mon man, you have to be fucking with me at this point. Think before you post. Read the thread, see what people are saying and then reply. If your entire opinion on trans people is based on a singular unpleasant reaction and there's a whole heap of trans people in this very thread posting resources and explaining just what transgender is, I'm gonna call your opinion idiotic (note, your opinion, not you - I don't know you well enough to discern your intellectual fortitude) when you're literally posting in ignorance when the information you need to educate yourself with is in this very thread.

And don't play the SJW card with me (or the white american card, 'cause that's also false). I'm just a - moderately aggressive - guy who gets sick of people not respecting other fucking people and stating their ignorant (ignorant isn't actually an insult, typically) opinions as fact. Trans people deal with enough bullshit that they don't need some rando stumbling into a 'discussion' about them and going 'well I had a negative encounter with them once so I think they're all mentally ill and need to stay away from my friends and family!'. Maybe try... I dunno, listening to trans people before you start posting your opinions about them? It'll do wonders for you (and if you don't want to listen to them then... don't post about them. Problem solved).

PS: Where I'm from, this *is* a polite tone. We call shit out when shit happens, it's much quicker and easier than beating around the bush. Why fuck around when someone fucks up when you can just go 'Hey man, what the fuck was that shit?' and deal with the problem directly?

 

[gact]

I think that there is a problem with what a transexual person is since english speaking countries let made the words sex and gender get confused with each other, sex is what you are born as and nothing can change that, is a biological characteristic defined by DNA, gender is the way people act, if they do things in a generalized feminine way then their gender is more of a female one. so transexual should be someone who changed sex, and transgrender is someone who changed grender. now if someone wants to act and look like a woman then fine let them act as one "live and let live" but that doesnt change that persons sex no matter how much they mangle their genitals.

 

[shrekfan246]

She meant "isn't". And yes, when one makes a thread in order to "ask questions" that are only asked by agenda-pushing transphobes and have been thoroughly refuted by the medical community otherwise, it's hard to believe that such questions are actually being asked in good faith and not done as an offensive dig towards people who are transgender.

Bloody hell, that must've been a nightmare to type out with that massive chip on your shoulder. And people wonder why these forums have gone to shit over the past year or two....

Then again, maybe you're right and OP is just a transphobe looking to spread his evil way of thinking or maybe....just maybe OP is genuinely curious to see what some of the regulars in these types of threads have to say on the matter. Sounds like a crazy possibility right? Weird what my mind can come up with when I don't just assume that people have the worst intentions in mind.

Not to pile on, but it's a bit hard to not be cynical when the only time these topics pop up is when people are looking to rile up the community.

Maybe OP is being genuine, I don't know, and I've got to head off to the hospital to get a kidney stone checked so I don't really have the time to read the rest of this thread and find out, but with respect to trans issues, this forum has been pretty historically intolerant and ignorant. And, as MarsAtlas pointed out, "Just Asking Questions" has become a very common form of pseudo-trolling, whereby the person asking questions has no actual interest in the answers, but just wants to make the subjects of their questions feel uncomfortable/angry.

Some people are faster to get right to the biting and gnashing; if I might invoke another one of the words unspeakable on the internet, that's why you tend to see a lot of anti-feminists who accuse feminists of being so gosh darn mean. While it may at times seem counter-productive, it's not their job to defend their lives to random strangers on the internet who are doing everything in their power to make them feel subhuman. With touchy subjects like these, trolls seem to thrive and it can be impossible to distinguish between the agenda-pushers, the guys having a lulz, and the genuinely well-meaning-but-ill-informed. Sometimes, an innocent person gets caught in the crossfire. However, I've come to notice that on the internet, more often than not the instigator is by no means innocent. Especially when they open their whole spiel with a mildly passive-aggressive "Don't get all triggered, geez!"

 

[Kathinka]

Ohhhh boy!

I just so happen to have written my doctorate about something to that end.

Morphologicaly speaking, unlike homosexuality, yes, it is an "illness", most likely with neurological origin though, not or at least not purely mental. And with some really weird connection to BIID, but that's a whole different story.
It's a condition that requires treatment to live a healthy life. So that makes sense, yes?
For reasons of PC, people do tend to get plenty pissy about it being called "illness" though. It carries that unpleasant social stigma, sadly.

The fact is, it doesn't matter that much. Conventional therapy alone has proven to be not very effective at best and disastrous at worst, and a direct treatment for the (not even yet completely understood) neurological cause is still decades away.

So what we are doing right now is really the only thing we CAN do right now. If you want to call it mental illness, gift from god or god damn dinosaurs with lasers, it doesn't matter.

 

[Dizchu]

The BDD analogy is one that gets done to death, but it's fundamentally dishonest. BDD is a delusional state which has more in common with anorexia and OCD than with gender identity disorder, a person with BDD possesses a distorted view of their own appearance which stems fundamentally from interior anxiety. Thus, surgery or attempts to "correct" the offending bodypart are generally not sufficient to help people with BDD, just as no amount of dieting will cure a person of anorexia.

I'm not sure about this. On one hand yes, BDD and gender dysphoria are two completely different things. However, as a transgender person myself I do exhibit many of the traits of BDD. When I attempt to appear more feminine my more "masculine" features stick out like a sore thumb even if people say I look great. I see pictures of myself and I panic, "no way do I look like that, I look hideous!"

Now I haven't transitioned and I have no plans to, but I don't think it'd be unreasonable to assume that many transgender people post-transition will also have these distorted views on their own body. "Passing" can be an extremely stressful thing and any "mistakes" will be exaggerated because of anxiety.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

The fact is, it doesn't matter that much. Conventional therapy alone has proven to be not very effective at best and disastrous at worst, and a direct treatment for the (not even yet completely understood) neurological cause is still decades away.

If the direct treatment for the neurological cause involves making a trans person cisgender... I cannot begin to tell you how morally and ethically wrong that is. Because the next step will be to develop a treatment for homosexuality that makes gay people straight, followed by a land slide of drugs, treatments, or neurosurgeries to make people be "normal". Following that those treatments will become mandatory and we can kiss personal freedoms goodbye, as any such thing starts to seep into the realm of mind control. That's a dystopian nightmare future hack science fiction is made of, it's terrifying. So if such a direct treatment comes to pass... Well I'll definitely be in line to vote it banned. Because I don't want to live in a world where arbitrary concepts of "normality" can be enforced directly into someone's brain.

 

[The Lunatic]

I guess by the technical definition. "Yes."

However, we decided long ago, that "Illness" is a bad word, and therefore, it's decidedly not so.

I suppose it's just one of those weird PC things where technical definitions are thrown out to avoid offending people.

 

[sky14kemea]