Arkham City.... Sexist?

[RoBi3.0]

So someone is upset because a game featuring scum of the earth hoodlums goons and super villains, depicts those scum of the earth hoodlums, goons and super villains participating in scum of the earth activities?

Is it lazy writing? Yes! there are millions of words in the English language repeatedly using one word is lazy not sexist.

The game is depicting a strong woman doing amazing things and kicking the snort out of scum of the earth baddies. How can you honestly claim a game is sexist that portrays a woman character that doesn't take no shit from no one.

I have to imagine when Catwoman is called a "*****", she is thinking to herself "Well take this you filthy dickhole" while punching the bad guy out.

Someone apparently has a vendetta against the word *****, I am fine with that it not a great word anyway, but I don't believe that Arkham city is sexist because the writing staff was to lazy to come up with more insults.

Almost always, an examining that WHOLE PICTURE is needed to determine intent. Focusing solely on the over use of the word ***** and jumping to conclusions.

 

[Burnswell]

Is it the word specificly or the fact they're insulting her at all?
If Batman would get called a bastard a zillion times is this sexist too? Why doesn't catwoman get called a bastard?

I do find it hard to find it hard to sympasthise with anyone who thinks the language that evil henchmen use is too strong when they then try their best to beat the living crap out of catwoman. Is trying to beat a woman to death more or less sexist than calling her a *****?

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Quick, somebody start another "reverse sexism" thread! That'll make the problem go away!

 

[ZeroChan]

They used "*****" a million times, because if they tried to call her a "****", there'd be an even bigger backlash.

 

[cobra_ky]

Calling a black person "******" is usually racist.

Calling a gay man "******" is usually homophobic.

But calling a woman "*****" isn't sexist?

Nope. See in those two staements 95% percent of the time it is always used as the worst kind of insult you could throw at that group, both words have a long history behind them (of course there are exceptions to the rule, but those are always on a pesonal level).

***** doesn't have the same level of stigma behind it, "slut" would be on the same level as the other too because it is such a loaded insult that brings up the double standards between men and women. THAT would be sexist. Whereas *****, a word that a not inconsequential amount of women would use to describe themselves with pride, has nowhere near the same amount of weight behind it.

Apples and Oranges.

"*****" is also based on a double standard, that aggression is expected from men but unbecoming of a woman. And I could cite numerous rap lyrics using the word "******" with pride or as a term of endearment, or examples where the word "fag" has been reclaimed by the gay community. The fact that an offensive term has been appropriated by the targeted group doesn't diminish the the impact that word has when used maliciously.

***** is very gender-specific as it is an explicitly gendered word. it is typically directed towards women, or towards men with the intent of comparing them to women unfavorably.

No it's not. In fact, just like with Fuck, the original meaning is largely unemployed. It's a meaningless swear word that is used by the criminals in the game as an insult towards Catwoman.

In the context of Arkham City, the word "*****" is used in a very gendered way.

They called her a *****. They didn't say women are less intelligent than men, they didn't say women belong in the kitchen, they simply used a swear word. Replace that swear word with anything else and it has the exact same impact. If that word was intended to be a sexist remark towards women, you wouldn't be able to replace it with a different insult. You're just making mountains out of mole hills. There's no such thing as being "unintentionally" sexist and as it stands, I'm fairly sure Arkham Cities writers did not use the word ***** in the context of insulting women.

You're defining sexism in a way that has very little applicability to the real world. Sexism is unfair treatment or discrimination based on gender. Very rarely will someone think "boy, it sure would be fun to do something sexist today." The vast majority of sexism in the world today is driven by unconscious behavior, in this case by men who were unaware what the dialogue they were writing implied about women.

Your conception of the word "*****" is also out of touch with reality. Every dictionary I can find it in mentions the female connotations.

 

[William Dickbringer]

They obviously should have gone with cleaner insults to women like whore or slut or ****

 

[Something Amyss]

I didn't lol but I like calling people out on it nonetheless, in the vain hope that I can make just one more person actually do the reading on these things before blowing literary chunks all over the internet and calling it a view point =p

I just had to use the phrase against the other poster. It was amusing.

 

[oktalist]

Reminds me of that supposedly "racist" (lol) character in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

Funny, because this article is by the exact same damn person.

http://kotaku.com/5836692/that-weirdly-racist-npc-in-deus-ex-human-revolution
http://kotaku.com/5851358/batman-arkham-citys-weird-*****-fixation

Articulate troll is articulate, but still a troll. And a professional one at that, in that he gets paid to do it. And we are contributing to his paycheque by visiting the site and giving it pageviews and ad revenue. They'll keep doing it as long as we keep paying attention to them and reposting their manufactured "opinions" on other sites to garner more attention for them.

 

[Shaoken]

Calling a black person "******" is usually racist.

Calling a gay man "******" is usually homophobic.

But calling a woman "*****" isn't sexist?

Nope. See in those two staements 95% percent of the time it is always used as the worst kind of insult you could throw at that group, both words have a long history behind them (of course there are exceptions to the rule, but those are always on a pesonal level).

***** doesn't have the same level of stigma behind it, "slut" would be on the same level as the other too because it is such a loaded insult that brings up the double standards between men and women. THAT would be sexist. Whereas *****, a word that a not inconsequential amount of women would use to describe themselves with pride, has nowhere near the same amount of weight behind it.

Apples and Oranges.

"*****" is also based on a double standard, that aggression is expected from men but unbecoming of a woman. And I could cite numerous rap lyrics using the word "******" with pride or as a term of endearment, or examples where the word "fag" has been reclaimed by the gay community. The fact that an offensive term has been appropriated by the targeted group doesn't diminish the the impact that word has when used maliciously.

Way to miss teh point. ***** has nowhere near the amount of stigma as "slut" or "****" do. Simply put, you can not compare ***** to those racial or sexual slurs. There is no situation outside two black men together that the N word means anything but a racial slur. Likewise, unless you're on good terms with the homosexual in question that F word it's always a homophobic slur.

***** on the other hand, is two rating catagories down on the list, which means it doesn't have the same impact as the other two, which means that it's not inherrently sexist. If you say ***** is aways sexist then you're saying that dick or prick is equally as sexist towards men.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

And I could cite numerous rap lyrics using the word "******" with pride or as a term of endearment, or examples where the word "fag" has been reclaimed by the gay community. The fact that an offensive term has been appropriated by the targeted group doesn't diminish the the impact that word has when used maliciously.

Or MAYBE it means it all depends on the context on which it is used. How about that?

Sexism is unfair treatment or discrimination based on gender.

And I fail to see how women were discriminated against in this game. I also fail to see how the word ***** puts women in a position of discrimination in the context of the game.

The vast majority of sexism in the world today is driven by unconscious behavior, in this case by men who were unaware what the dialogue they were writing implied about women.

Implied what? That she was a *****? Would it have been better if they implied she was a twat?

Your conception of the word "*****" is also out of touch with reality. Every dictionary I can find it in mentions the female connotations.

And every dictionary on the planet fails to account that the word does not posses the same connotations it did back in the 15th century. ***** is used as an insult towards both men and women. I fail to see how this is in any way sexist.

 

[jpoon]

Hah, I care not. I'm fine with sexism for the most part, if you're not you might as well not even live on this planet because you're going to live with it your whole life.

Top that off with the fact that this is a game, and you have a steaming pile of "who really gives a shit?".

 

[370999]

To me at least, simply by having baddies who are sexist does not make your product so. So yes the word is clearly being used in an offensive way but it is the way it is portrayed that amtters as to whetever the game is in itself sexist.

Mind you seeing as Cat woman is meant to be sex incarnate, you could argue on that level it is but whatever.

 

[SageRuffin]

The only bit of sexism I've heard is how every guy not getting his teeth kicked in apparently "wants to ride that Harley" and a few lines about molesting Catwoman, but this is mostly second-hand knowledge, so don't quote me on that.

 

[Frostbite3789]

1. It's the BAD GUYS that are calling her a *****.

That claim has already been given a rebuttal to:

HULK BET THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY TRY TO DEFEND THIS HORSESHIT DISPOSITION BY SAYING IT?S OKAY BECAUSE THE ONES SAYING IT ARE THE ?BAD GUYS.? WHICH ISN?T ACTUALLY TRUE BECAUSE LOTS OF THE SECURITY GUARDS AND A GOOD GUY FROM LAST GAME ALL CHIP IN WITH THE ?*****? TALK JUST AS MUCH AS EVERYONE ELSE. (2) AND IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY BATMAN OR CATWOMAN RESPOND TO ANY OF THIS THAT MAKES HULK THINK OTHERWISE? IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY IT?S SHOWN TO MAKE HULK THINK IT?S ANYTHING MORE THAN SEXIST FUN MEANT TO ELLICIT A FEW PAINFUL LAUGHS FROM AN AUDIENCE WHO DOESN?T KNOW ANY BETTER?

Well, I hope he writes an article every time any character of any gender is insulted in any kind of media. If he didn't, that'd be a double standard, and we don't want those, now do we?

Oh wait...

 

[Dastardly]

When accusations of 'this game is racist' and 'this game is sexist' and 'The Sims 3 is offensive to people with mental disorders' (that last one is real by the way, I wish I was kidding) come up pretty damn frequently it isn't that hard to understand why some people, myself included, get more than a little frustrated with this issue croping up again and again in some form, somewhere.

But we should be careful not to group all of these accusations into the same pot. Some do not have merit, but some do. Otherwise, it's like saying, "Because some people diagnose themselves with Asperger's falsely, we won't believe anyone..." or something.

And what other words would you have used that a) feel like natural dialogue for street thugs who likely aren't very well educated and don't have a wide vocabulary and b) doesn't violate the T for Teen rating (that's what I've heard it's going to be)?

Please understand -- neither I nor the folks writing these articles are against the use of the word "*****." It's a dark game, and that kind of language is to be expected. The problem is the exclusive and pervasive use of the word "*****." Any other words could break the monotony of it.

And using the perceived educational level of the NPCs isn't a defense. The developers have to keep in mind that players will be encountering these random dialogue bits hundreds of times during a playthrough. Repetition is already a problem, just from a "fun" standpoint. When it's a gender-specific insult, that problem is compounded.

The other problem, as I see it? Every woman is described as "*****." You could call Harley Quinn a "friggin' nutjob." You could call Talia an "ice queen." You could think of some insult that's just a little more specific to the woman being insulted. Not only would that provide variety, it would avoid the appearance of a belief that all of these "girl" characters are pretty much the same...

You know what? I don't even think it would be as big a problem if it was just Catwoman described as a "*****." That does, in a way, seem to be part of her persona -- she's a little rougher on men than she needs to be sometimes. As long as the other women got different labels, you could call it an aspect of "characterization."

It doesn't show laziness, the word '*****' is an extremely common word to use in order to insult women, it's more natural to have the thugs spam the word '*****' because I'm sure someone who's job prospects don't reach higher than hitting people doesn't really have the poetic mindset or inclination to stop and think of a witty and biting retort in the middle of a fist fight.

It's laziness on the part of the writers, excused as "character behavior." I find a similar problem in movies where every other word is "fuck." It's not the word that bothers me, it's the laziness -- as though that words is the only way to make things more "edgy" or "adult" or "dark."

This is not sexism at all. Sexism is an intentional, explicit hatred and contempt for women and the people who commit acts of genuine sexism are vile and evil people (I hold the same view towards all forms of discrimination).

It's a grave mistake to think that sexism can only be intentional. Someone doesn't have to maliciously want bad things to happen to women. If they just harbor a subconscious belief that all woman are inferior to men... or that most women are inferior to men... or that all women are basically the same... or that all women should be... it doesn't have to be intentional or malicious to be sexist.

A video game that uses the word '*****' a lot isn't sexist...

Again, it's not the amount of times. It's the fact that it's basically the only insult used, and it's used universally for all women in the game. It's not that the word is being used, it's how. Lazy writing, zero effort to individualize treatment of the female characters, all blamed half-heartedly on, "What do you expect? They're uneducated thugs!" Yes, they are. But writers, you are not.

 

[Dastardly]

Well, I hope he writes an article every time any character of any gender is insulted in any kind of media. If he didn't, that'd be a double standard, and we don't want those, now do we?

Oh wait...

But see, this is a strawman argument you're making.

No one is complaining because of the fact that the word "*****" is being used. The complaints are that it's pretty much the only insult being used, and it's applied to all of the female characters.

Batman gets a wide variety of insults... but a handful of very different women all get grouped into one? That's the problem.

Also, the developers fail to realize that these little bits of combat dialogue are going to pop up hundreds of times during a playthrough, which really highlights the lack of variety and thought that went into them.

Again, how hard would it have been to occasionally call Harley Quinn a "friggin' nutjob." That doesn't sound too "smart" for a thug. Maybe Poison Ivy is "that tree-huggin' plant witch." God, they could even taunt Talia by calling her "princess" or something. At the very least, it would help the insults to sound like they were tailored to the specific women being insulted, rather than lumping them all into the "strong women are universally bitches" category.

No one's asking them to be "nice" thugs. No one's saying "never used the word *****." Some folks just think it's a bit lazy and accidentally-sexist to lump all of the female characters under one insult and leave it at that.

 

[Lord Beautiful]

After letting that article soak in, I think I'm gonna go soap up my brain and try to rinse out the stupid.