Arkham City.... Sexist?
- Thread starter BreakfastMan
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I find it interesting that they take offense at the word "*****" but not the fact that catwoman was clearly written to be dumber than a box full of rocks.BreakfastMan said:
considering that the character is CATwoman, we're lucky that the mooks didn't used another word more often.
Whether it's PG or not isn't the point. It is PG so "*****" gets thrown with abandon while anything comparatively offesive that could be thrown at Batman is not used. (And it's not just thugs who use the word, a friendly uses it as well.)GreatTeacherCAW said:
This leads to a jarring tone that is inadvertently sexist; Most of the male characters in the game throw gender specific taunts at Catwoman while the most offensive thing that they say about Batman is that he's a freak.
And there are very different ways of viewing "sexuality." In this game, her "sexuality" seems to be based on presenting her as a sexual object. Catwoman's sexuality used to be based on her own sexual identity, not one "being sexually desirable to others" alone.Melopahn said:
It's one thing for a woman to indicate, "I enjoy sex and am not shy about that." That's a woman with a strong sense of her own sexuality. It's another thing for a woman to pander to the sexual expectations of men. That's a woman (usually written by a man) who is subservient to the sexuality of men. She isn't "displaying sexuality." She is "being sexualized."
You know, most of the times, people who are insulting women don´t use the word "*****" as some woman-only insult to deminish them. They use it because it´s the simpliest, yet effective insult in the book. A good example: cocksucker. I´ve never seen anyone, male or female, calling a woman a "cocksucker". It´s much more insulting to men, even if said man is gay. It´s used because it´s an easy, yet extremely offensive word. And the Arkham City thugs are a bunch of idiotic rapists with no respect for ANYTHING. Even if they´re calling Catwoman a ***** because their sexists, it´s not because the designers are sexists, it´s because the thugs are idiotic rapists.LiquidGrape said:
Usually, the more we look for hidden meanings and subliminal messages in everything, the more damage we do to the point that we´re trying to make. I for one, don´t want to see almost every woman turn into that imaginary "TV liberal" that pepper-spray´s you if you even ask for directions.
They aren't. Batman is the hero. He is strong, unyielding, determined. He is characterized and drawn that way. Can you imagine a skinny Batman? It doesn't work.Fiz_The_Toaster said:
Inherent problem with this prattle. The game isn't sexist, the characters calling her ***** are. They are narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, and you're wondering if they are using '*****' too much? While being kicked in the face? Seriously?
I'm completely hip to the feminist scene but I am pretty sure the word '*****' would come out of me if I was Kicked In The Face by a woman. This argument is nonsensical and more than a little trite when you consider this is one woman who by all definitions, IS a *****, getting called one. Luckily, the point of this game is that the ***** gets her kicks in and the people she kicks have it coming.
Now to see my post get cherry picked...
I'm completely hip to the feminist scene but I am pretty sure the word '*****' would come out of me if I was Kicked In The Face by a woman. This argument is nonsensical and more than a little trite when you consider this is one woman who by all definitions, IS a *****, getting called one. Luckily, the point of this game is that the ***** gets her kicks in and the people she kicks have it coming.
Now to see my post get cherry picked...
I swear, every time I sneak around Arkham Asylum as Batman, all I ever hear are the Arkham inmates bitching about one thing or another...
...no? Someone else already do it? Fine, whatever.
...no? Someone else already do it? Fine, whatever.
As you indicated the PM was a system mistake, I've taken the liberty of transferring the comment back to the thread proper:
On the topic: Your opinion of "what Catwoman was made for" is just that -- your opinion. You feel that she was created basically as a prop, meant only to serve a purpose for Batman's character. A lot of people feel that she is, in fact, a character in her own right. Given that she has, in the past, had her very own comic book series (and even that awful movie), I'd say that particular opinion has far more evidence than yours. So, let's not pretend that you have exclusive knowledge of "how the author made her."
Saying that she "represents sexuality" would not be inaccurate. Saying that she is only "an object to give batman a love interest" is wildly inaccurate. It is also extremely narrow. The Joker has his own identity as a character, and he also serves as a "foil" for Batman. He "represents" certain concepts, but also has an identity.
In Arkham City, her sexuality is being presented in a male-centric way. The comics have often done a much better job of giving her independent sexuality. Not perfect, but better than this. They have incorrectly presented that sexuality, in a way that is subversively sexist -- she behaves, dresses, and speaks in a way that is intended solely to be titillating to men, rather than empowering toward women.
Again, there is a difference. A woman who likes sex, and isn't afraid to say so, or a woman who knows what makes her sexy, and shows it off a little bit because she enjoys that power -- these are "women with a strong sense of sexuality. A woman who dresses and speaks in unnatural ways to titillate the audience -- that's pandering to the male demographic. It is using a female image to please men, rather than as an independent female character. If you can't see the difference, there is little help for you.
Your tone is not conducive to a discussion. That's all I will say about that.Melopahn said:
On the topic: Your opinion of "what Catwoman was made for" is just that -- your opinion. You feel that she was created basically as a prop, meant only to serve a purpose for Batman's character. A lot of people feel that she is, in fact, a character in her own right. Given that she has, in the past, had her very own comic book series (and even that awful movie), I'd say that particular opinion has far more evidence than yours. So, let's not pretend that you have exclusive knowledge of "how the author made her."
Saying that she "represents sexuality" would not be inaccurate. Saying that she is only "an object to give batman a love interest" is wildly inaccurate. It is also extremely narrow. The Joker has his own identity as a character, and he also serves as a "foil" for Batman. He "represents" certain concepts, but also has an identity.
In Arkham City, her sexuality is being presented in a male-centric way. The comics have often done a much better job of giving her independent sexuality. Not perfect, but better than this. They have incorrectly presented that sexuality, in a way that is subversively sexist -- she behaves, dresses, and speaks in a way that is intended solely to be titillating to men, rather than empowering toward women.
Again, there is a difference. A woman who likes sex, and isn't afraid to say so, or a woman who knows what makes her sexy, and shows it off a little bit because she enjoys that power -- these are "women with a strong sense of sexuality. A woman who dresses and speaks in unnatural ways to titillate the audience -- that's pandering to the male demographic. It is using a female image to please men, rather than as an independent female character. If you can't see the difference, there is little help for you.
People using the argument that Catwoman would be called "b***" by people fighting her - this isn't right. I mean I absolutely agree that people would do that, but no one calls Batman an a$$hole, or a f@gg0t or anything like that. I could totally see that happening if a gang of insane criminals were fighting somebody, but it doesn't happen. Yeah, the over-use of ***** is sexist because the character is treated differently solely on the basis of sex.
Is it still the best game I've played in a really long time? Absolutely! Is there sexism in a ton of awesome movies and comics and music? Definitely.
I was playing while my girlfriend was in the room and was a little embarrassed for the game whenever Catwoman spoke... just this absolutely over-the-top heavy panting voice. I think they tried way too hard to make her sound sexy, it comes off as (to me) pretty ridiculous. The only male equivalent I can think of is Christian Bale's Batman voice. In this game, Batman doesn't speak in a ludicrously "masculine" voice - as in the mode of say, Gears of War characters.
So all in all, Catwoman is where they dropped the ball in terms of integrity and believability, for me personally. ON THE OTHER HAND... they sort of made up for it by having Catwoman be completely AWESOME to play as. I would say the way she handles in combat is perhaps better than Batman, she definitely has some way cooler moves.
Is it still the best game I've played in a really long time? Absolutely! Is there sexism in a ton of awesome movies and comics and music? Definitely.
I was playing while my girlfriend was in the room and was a little embarrassed for the game whenever Catwoman spoke... just this absolutely over-the-top heavy panting voice. I think they tried way too hard to make her sound sexy, it comes off as (to me) pretty ridiculous. The only male equivalent I can think of is Christian Bale's Batman voice. In this game, Batman doesn't speak in a ludicrously "masculine" voice - as in the mode of say, Gears of War characters.
So all in all, Catwoman is where they dropped the ball in terms of integrity and believability, for me personally. ON THE OTHER HAND... they sort of made up for it by having Catwoman be completely AWESOME to play as. I would say the way she handles in combat is perhaps better than Batman, she definitely has some way cooler moves.
Yes, yes it is.
It's not even a good portrayal of Catwoman. Go read the Brubaker/Cooke run on her own book from a few years back. Yes, she was sexy. Yes, she wore a leather catsuit. But... said catsuit didn't fit like an improbable second skin, and there were no high heels on her boots, and she didn't wander around with the mask off and the suit unzipped nearly to the crotch. And don't get me started on the puns. Who did they get to write this? Someone who'd only ever watched the 60s tv show?
That's what bugs me about AC, and has done since the first piece of Catwoman art was released for it (where she's tied up in a typical woman-in-peril pose naturally) The portrayal of Catwoman in AC isn't even accurate to her comic book portrayal. Or at least her comic portrayal when she was being written by grown ups. Sadly the relaunch has put her title in the hands of lesser 'talents'.
Sigh...
It's not even a good portrayal of Catwoman. Go read the Brubaker/Cooke run on her own book from a few years back. Yes, she was sexy. Yes, she wore a leather catsuit. But... said catsuit didn't fit like an improbable second skin, and there were no high heels on her boots, and she didn't wander around with the mask off and the suit unzipped nearly to the crotch. And don't get me started on the puns. Who did they get to write this? Someone who'd only ever watched the 60s tv show?
That's what bugs me about AC, and has done since the first piece of Catwoman art was released for it (where she's tied up in a typical woman-in-peril pose naturally) The portrayal of Catwoman in AC isn't even accurate to her comic book portrayal. Or at least her comic portrayal when she was being written by grown ups. Sadly the relaunch has put her title in the hands of lesser 'talents'.
Sigh...
It's not that the characters are using the word "*****" too much. It's that the writers depended entirely too much, and too broadly, on the word "*****" to convey whatever it is they're trying to convey. They did not recognize the problem of the same phrase being repeated over and over and over throughout hours of gameplay.DeathWyrmNexus said:
Are Catwoman and Quinn the same characters? No. They're supposedly very different. So, why can't the writers treat them differently? The complaints aren't about the use of the word. It's about the overuse of the word, and how it's applied to all of the female characters--with the weak justification that "this is how convicts would talk."
Recall, it isn't just Catwoman getting called a *****. It's all of the female characters. Even Batman gets a variety of different insults, and he's just one guy. Maybe "bitchiness" is part of Catwoman's character. And that's fine. But Quinn? She's more "psycho" than "*****," but they couldn't resist calling her a *****, too. Talia? Ivy? Are all women with any kind of strength or independence "bitches?"
That's the view the game is unintentionally putting forward. Accidental sexism may not be malicious, but it can be just as destructive as intentional. After all, if I accidentally hit someone with my car, is their leg any less broken?
I think everyones missing the point of the article. Its mostly because its overused and EVERYWHERE.lacktheknack said:
Imagine if they used shitface instead. "Hey shitface" "lets go get shitface!" "Stop shitface!" "shitface is coming!" "My favorite word is "shitface" "what time is it?" "its shitface 30" "give me back the jewel, shitface" "hes getting away, shitface!" "hey shitface" "shitface, we are going to fight to the death now!" "stop stealing things, shitface!" "shitface, stop stealing things all the time!" "shitface, i need your help with something"
And then when they meet batman there like "im going to fight you now"
The article said its not a huge deal, just....weird....dont they ever say anything else? lol
I think if they called her "My fair lady" it would brake my immersion. *shrug* I dismiss the language as situationly correct more or less. And for the sexism... it's a videogame, they are sexist in nature, and it's CATWOMAN... It's part of her gimick.BreakfastMan said:
But then, everyone is so easily offended these days. I wonder when the skinheaded street thugs are going to complain about there portral in videogames. LOL >.<
The bad guys call you a *****. So the the bad guys are bad guys. I don't see what is wrong with this.
Oh gee, they use the word "*****". For cryin' out loud, what do you expect from a bunch of goons! Plus, she is a bit of *****. That's her personality and a bit of tactic in that the way she acts infuriates her opponents and causes them to screw up in their rage. Aye, why are we still on shit like this?
Here is your problem...Dastardly said:
Harley Quinn is a psychotic ***** and LITERALLY Joker's submissive slave, another definition of *****. Catwoman is a lying, thieving *****. Ivy is the ***** that makes independent and strong women look bad through her actions, IE crimes, and obvious contempt for other people. Talia is her daddy's *****, doing all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons.
So no, it is a versatile word for the versatile villainesses. Want to notice something else? They are bitches because of their attitudes, crimes, and general treatment of other people. THAT is the defining point of a *****, not strength and independence.
The use of the word ***** is lacking creativity and that relates to the problem is stock phrases and lazy writing. However, stock phrases and lazy writing does not immediately equal sexism. Let's not missidentify the problem.
Also, don't lump strong and independent women with manipulative, psychotic, and/or contemptuous women, it insults them and weakens fighting actual sexism.
Catwoman views her independence as an excuse to manipulate and steal
.
Harley Quinn and Ivy use their strength to maim, murder, and terrorize. And saying Harley is independent is a joke. One of her defining flaws is her mental dependency on the Joker.
Talia uses her skill to serve her father's insanity, she is probably the only one I can say was called a ***** when something else would work better. Again, lazy writing, not sexism.
Again, they are not bitches because they are strong/independent. They are bitches because of what they do with said power. Just like calling a man a bastard because he is being a bastard.
Now if Batman called Batgirl an uppity *****, then we would have a problem.