(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I said sometimes! Hugs!

But seriously I have been getting a little depressed with all this sexism stuff.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

Out of curiosity [and a bit off topic], what would women want in a female targeted "fan-service" game?

Women is a pretty broad term. I've always wanted a game that lets you play out lesbian rape, even if it was just for its own sake. There's lots of Japanese games like that (surprise) but they all come at it from a male on female perspective. Does that count as fan service? I've never completely understood the term. It's just gratuitous sexuality to satiate a viewer, yeah? It doesn't actually need to be "servicing" people of a particular fanbase?

Well, when we talk about fan service in the gender debates we do mean gratuitous sexual content, that exists only to let the audience be teased and titillated, but it can refer to other things too. For example, in Ace Attorney Investigations there are lots of background cameos by characters and props from previous Ace Attorney games. They are all very vestigal and add hardly anything (with one exception or two), but anyone who has played the preceeding titles will recognize them. In other words the fans of the previous games will appriciate the fanservice, while a newcomer might potentially feel a bit left out of the loop.

If you wanted a very general definition of fanservice I would put it somewhat like this: Gratuitous pandering to what is seen as the viewer/reader/player base, that is also irrelevant to the work at large.

Per your point on the lesbian rape, if it is a core feature of the game/visual novel it is not fanservice, but if it just is there on the sidelines without anything to add to the work it could be seen as it. However, presentation is very important here. Both scenarios could be seen as fanservice-y if presented in a manner meant to titillate.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

So, porn isn't fan service because the entire point of the medium is sexual gratification, yes?

Yes. Or to be a bit more specific, sexual content in porn and erotica can not be seen as fanservice, because that is a key/big part of the work.

 

[Easton Dark]

Woah what the hell happened in this thread since last night? Lots of new posts, I can only imagine it was a quote war.

 

[Vault101]

Oh no, take all the credit you want - you did do a fair amount of verbal-beating down on him, and seemed to be his biggest opponent throughout his stay here.

Also, is that a Ghost in the Shell + that awesome-comic-strip-whose-name-I-keep-forgetting avatar? If so, then that makes me happy. Both of those things are awesome.

Ghost in the Shell and Footrot Flats

yes it is ;P

 

[Someone Depressing]

We know female-gamers exist - not only is that why the reason why optional female-protagonists are being introduced in games, but also for males to play the game through a different gender's perspective, and vice-versa. Infact, with the PSP remake of Persona 3, quite alot of male players played as the female counterpart - me included, ofcourse.

We know they exist, they know they exist, and the only people bothered are stupid YouTube trolls and people on 4chan. There's not really much to talk about - unless you want to show more statistics that only say the same thing, over and over again.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

snip

So what is your point? Just because women in are in a minority we should keep our opinions to ourselves and not let devs know what we would like.

I do believe that I not too long ago brought up the fact that you should go send angry letters to the Japanese creators of Valkyrie Chronicles and Bayonetta, and see precisely how many fucks they're willing to give about you and your problems.

That advice remains unchanged. I have not changed my other criticism either.

From a demographical standpoint the statistics published by the ESA[footnote]http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf[/footnote] explicitly state that women have been on average playing at least some genre of video game for the last twelve years. Yet now that they've hit the ripe old age of 30, and this last part is open conjecture on my part, as a group they're suddenly no longer quite so comfortable with the sexual exploitation of young, healthy, empowered and predominately white action girls that have been sold to them by the likes of Joss Whedon since the early nineties.

When it is no longer quite as easy to practice the feminism of convenience of a younger woman, the worst possible thing that could be done about it I think is to switch to the feminism of convenience of an older woman.

Have you guys ever thought that make its the pandering and lack of female characters in gaming that makes women more attracted to casual or even indie games? Because those at least don't treat women like sex objects for guys to ogle.

Old women want to play with the toys of younger men do they? And fictional depictions of younger women are somehow acting as a barrier to entry?[footnote]http://gigaom.com/2010/02/17/average-social-gamer-is-a-43-year-old-woman/[/footnote] [footnote]http://www.igda.org/online/quarterly/1_2/casual.php[/footnote]

And here I thought it'd be something sensible. Like people past their forties being more conservative with how they splash their cash on luxury goods, or that the physical effects of aging might indeed create a real barrier to entry for older people to play and preform well playing video games that have been designed with a much younger audience in mind.

Spoiler: Charon has more fangirls than Edward Cullen and he's a freaking ghoul.

Well you can't say women are shallow at least...

Draco in leather pants. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants]

Because the only thing you need to do in order to please a harem of lusty wenches is change everything that makes you yourself.

That's totally not shallow.

 

[Cranky]

I have only self-pity to provide.

Blah, blah, I do not know many women in my life.
Blah, blah, I wish I knew female gamers.

My true feelings, though.

 

[books of war 13]

I guess one reason people think there is only one demographic of person who pays video games is that people often discover them on their own or through a close friend or family member and when they see someone outside this race or gender they find it unusual. Maybe because on the internet (oh yeah) people are starting to realize that there a lot of of people from different genders, races and and sexual orientations (I think that's how you say it) and some are scared of this notion that everyone is actually an individual and can make decisions and are against the societal pressures. This is good reason why things like guilds and gaming communities are a very good thing they introduce people to this idea in friendly cooperative environment.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Most of the time men don't laugh with you though they just tell you to get back in the kitchen. Why is it so hard for some men to act like adults?

At least you said ?some men?, so I appreciate that. Questioning why a sexist dickhead is a sexist dickhead is like asking why the WBC is the way they are. You simply can?t reason with some people, so you either ignore them, or you protest with a bunch of gays across the street. Just don?t confuse men acting different with a bunch of men to come as a surprise. Everyone just wants to cut lose a little bit, and sadly video games are one of the few options where people can without getting into trouble. At least they used to be.

its not the video...its the [i/]attitude[/i]

to sit there and say "whats the problem bro?" while not "activly" sexist is still somwhat part of the problem, again, impling that there [i/]are[/i] no issues or that you should "really just not worry about it"

now granted, I don't get offended at everything, you have to pick your battles, like the "girlfriend mode" incident while "casually sexist" isn't worth the effort..and the Lara croft incident was overblown

but if there is an issue then I think it needs attention....not to be ignored or brushed off

of coarse then telling people what they should or shouldn't find offensive gets messy at the best of times.....

I?m going to ask this question in all seriousness, not as some quip comeback pecking for a fight; but what exactly are you going to do about it? Ban people from multiplayer that are offensive? Bar them from participating in their hobby because they aren?t nice?

I?ll accept that some people take issue with various slurs and whatnot, but what do you actually propose?

You get the point, most basic female YouTube comments on videos like that correlate to male comments on differently themed videos and I don't see anything wrong with that.

You can?t point out that at times women can be as equally bad as men! The walls of reality may come crashing down on us at any moment! What have you done??!!

 

[Overusedname]

-snip-

Lol.

My 'gender deconstructionist nonsense' is not something I made up, not is it something I, as a guy, in anyway benefit from. It makes us look bad, quite frankly.

Gender psychology is not exactly new. I ask you do the research before you just keep throwing the same claims at me. Your dismissal of this credited, progressive field is somewhat incriminating. It's existed for several decades. Keep the historical context of female oppression in mind.

And...I'm not dignifying the rest of your statements, several of which come across personal attacks and misdirected bile.

You have far to much personal contempt. Tippy is stubborn, you're just hateful. And forgive me if I ignore you from this point on. (thank god for that button)

I do believe that I not too long ago brought up the fact that you should go send angry letters to the Japanese creators of Valkyrie Chronicles and Bayonetta, and see precisely how many fucks they're willing to give about you and your problems.

That advice remains unchanged. I have not changed my other criticism either.

Those are not the words of someone whose opinion can be taken seriously. The personal vendetta is well-worded, but nonetheless repulsive and condescending. Leave the girl be, you've made it clear you can't relate to her fairly justified woes. A minority shouldn't just shut up by virtue of being a minority.

You may have a legitimate point somewhere, but I could never tell. It's burried under an evident lack of diversity in the company you keep, the blatant contempt you hold, the fact that you'd rather imply that I'm lying about proven statistics (all of which I've provided evidence for) and seem to think I, and most other people in this topic, are lying about every detail of their personal life.

I suggest you practice what you preach. Do some independent research and find some people who aren't 'gender-normal'.

I kindly ask you to drop the snideness, the stealthy insults, hypocrisy and general anger at a very simple concept of Women's opinions meaning something in every aspect of the medium (hell, regardless of percentage) and the outraging assumption that no other person could have possibly experienced a different life than the one you lead.

And I'm sorry, accuse me of being childish, and perhaps it is, but you're on my ignore list. I really can't cope with snark, dehumanization and condescension unless it's being done in a funny way. As you can see I've disagreed with several people on this forum, but we've managed to keep it respectful. I ask you to do the same.

For the sake of future posters I mean, as you certainly won't effect me from here on. Goodbye.

 

[Overusedname]

Woah what the hell happened in this thread since last night? Lots of new posts, I can only imagine it was a quote war.

Look at Tippy's stuff.

Paradox hasn't helped.

Nor has DevilWithAHalo, the guy who thought it was a good idea to post a video called 'From the Kitchen to the Controller, Girl Gamer's Exposed' on the Escapist.

There might be a legit argument somewhere on the opposing side, but it's buried under all three of these guys saying that women should accept the fact that there opinion doesn't matter, or call the hive mind of women on the 'evil-feminist' hotline and organize some kind of Coup instead of just asking a vocal minority of men to be slightly less abrasive.

Then some women got upset by that. It's hard to believe huh?

I've actually had someone somewhere assume I was a women, because if a guy isn't a jackass 24/7 he's just whiteknighting to seduce women who he'll never actually meet.

That's what ya missed.

If someone's opinion is 'your opinion is meaningless based on gender ratio', how do I respect that?

I can't bring myself to. I've met to many women who are better at sports, math and can't cook.

It's always sad that feminist-minded/political correct type of women that would best like to deny sexuality exists seem to impose themselves in such conversations, when most of them often can be just as "base" as men over things e.g.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZROo_We-Og

I've met one out like...10 girls that are 'base' in any open way, so I wouldn't say most. But a lot of them can be. And it can be kinda hot, but that's not the point of the vid. It's making fun of the worst people under the umbrella of 'gamer'.

But I'd like to see a bit more of this kinda thing. That vid does make it clear that this crap is annoying, and it gets people thinking. And it's...kinda funny. I've never been partial to college humor personally.

 

[Euryalus]

Woah what the hell happened in this thread since last night? Lots of new posts, I can only imagine it was a quote war.

I got the hell out of this thread early on when people started posting essays worth of text (I knew where dis was goin'). I've been lurkin' to see what's been going on since then but... there's tippy, and paradox and just a general sense of chaos.


Overusedname...

lol. I figured this thread was gonna be going in this direction. I told you to make it less about Feminism in general towards the beginning, but... hey if you can fight the good fight, and not let it get to ya, then good for you. I find feminism midly boring as a philosophical topic but whatever. Had fun reading through this thread all the same... We just need [user]Mythrandia[/user] to join this thread and the insanity will be complete.